Whipitgood Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Purely out of curiosity and because the issue is reasonably common in my breed - how long do you wait for a retained testicle to come down? Whats the eldest you have had a puppy finally drop his testicle? I know that i have waited till 16 weeks with a male i once had and how devastating it can be to have a beautiful baby with only 1 nut! You hope and pray for as long as possible that maybe, it might come down soon! Do other breeders run them on for longer? If its not down by 12 weeks is it never coming down? Im talking about inguinal testicles, not abdominal obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I subscribe to the theory if they aren't there at 10-12 weeks, then there's no point keeping the dog. I fully expect that dogs will suck one or two up on cold days or when nervous as very young pups and will forgive that knowing that as they get bigger they can't suck them up. A dog that doesn't have two descended testicles by 12 weeks of age isn't normal and given that there are so many out there in the breed with just one (and even none ), I wouldn't bother to keep a dog that took months and months for them to both come down and certainly wouldn't be breeding with it. Whilst it might be quite common in the breed, it's not something that the breed community should be forgiving and forgetting about. Bitches that produce dogs without two fully descended testicles shouldn't be bred from again and we should also be taking a good look at their female progeny and considering removing them from the gene pool too. It's just my personal opinion of course and there will be others who disagree with it but what's the point of producing a cracking looking litter, with a fault like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) Whilst it might be quite common in the breed, it's not something that the breed community should be forgiving and forgetting about. Bitches that produce dogs without two fully descended testicles shouldn't be bred from again and we should also be taking a good look at their female progeny and considering removing them from the gene pool too. It's just my personal opinion of course and there will be others who disagree with it but what's the point of producing a cracking looking litter, with a fault like that. Would you use a sire again who had produced it Wreckit? Genuine question, I have no hands-on experience with the problem and no vested interest. Repro vets I have spoken to have been clear it is known now to be a multi-gene problem, but recessive. Both sire and dam must carry it to produce it. Previous thinking that it was just from the dam they reckon is disproved. Edited July 10, 2013 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whipitgood Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 Yes agreed and good points. Unfortunately there are many, many that still breed with this issue very prominant in their bitches and dogs lines. It seems to be appearing more and more. Diva I have heard the same, that it was originally thought to be from the dams side, but now further research has indicated that it comes from both sides. I subscribe to the theory if they aren't there at 10-12 weeks, then there's no point keeping the dog. I fully expect that dogs will suck one or two up on cold days or when nervous as very young pups and will forgive that knowing that as they get bigger they can't suck them up. A dog that doesn't have two descended testicles by 12 weeks of age isn't normal and given that there are so many out there in the breed with just one (and even none ), I wouldn't bother to keep a dog that took months and months for them to both come down and certainly wouldn't be breeding with it. Whilst it might be quite common in the breed, it's not something that the breed community should be forgiving and forgetting about. Bitches that produce dogs without two fully descended testicles shouldn't be bred from again and we should also be taking a good look at their female progeny and considering removing them from the gene pool too. It's just my personal opinion of course and there will be others who disagree with it but what's the point of producing a cracking looking litter, with a fault like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) Short answer - you don't. From the research I've done, cryptorchidism is recessive and not a simple recessive either. Therefore it needs to be on both sides of the mating for it to occur. Sisters of affected pups are just as big a risk of producing it as their brothers. There was also mention of a some research that linked late descending testes with an increased risk of siring cryptorchid pups. Therefore, the "wait and hope" approach is not wise if you're choosing future breeding dogs. And I would NOT want to use a dog that had one drop late. My view, formed by hard experience, is that if a pup does not have two fully descended testes at 8 weeks, you should find them a good pet home. It's heartbreaking so see promising pups removed from your gene pool but not as heartbreaking as a litter with every male pup a cryptorchid and that has happened in Whippets as an example. I would not breed from a bitch from such a litter. I've heard them drop as late as 5-6 months and the oldest I've heard of is 18 months - I would definitely not want such a dog siring a litter for me. As for using a sire that had produced it? It takes two to tango for this to be an issue. I'd be wary but I'd certainly not write the dog off. Edited July 10, 2013 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) Same repro vets I mentioned said if they aren't down by 8 weeks they think of them as genetically crypto even if they come down much later - which is your point I think HW. But you say you would not write the sire off - as he has the same genetic influence than the dam on this issue, I assume you then wouldn't necessarily write her off either? The only difference I can see is an entire dog who produces it must be heterogeneous for the trait, whereas the bitch could be homogeneous or she could be heterogeneous, and you would only be able to potentially figure that out with a thorough knowledge of the lines or progeny. (Or test mating but no-one does that these days.) Edited July 11, 2013 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 I won't wait for them - 8-10 weeks is my limit. As for using the sire again (or the dam, same argument really) - it would depend on if they have produced it before. Having a very close look at pedigrees and if certain crosses keep producing it usually gives you clues as to what to do next. Wouldn't write off either dog or bitch for one monorchid but repeat offenders I would avoid. Interestingly - how many would be cautious about the brother or sister to a monorchid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 I won't wait for them - 8-10 weeks is my limit. As for using the sire again (or the dam, same argument really) - it would depend on if they have produced it before. Having a very close look at pedigrees and if certain crosses keep producing it usually gives you clues as to what to do next. Wouldn't write off either dog or bitch for one monorchid but repeat offenders I would avoid. Interestingly - how many would be cautious about the brother or sister to a monorchid? Me for one... BUT to some degree it might be dependent on how widely spread the condition was in the litter. That's the challenge of recessive genes - you have no way of knowing how widely they've been passed on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) Interestingly - how many would be cautious about the brother or sister to a monorchid? Even if it is a best case and both parents are only heterogeneous for the trait, the sister has a 25% chance of being homogeneous for it , and a 50% chance of being heterogeneous. She only has a 25% chance of being clear - so yes, I'd be cautious. You would have to be a gambler, or know your intended studs are completey clear, not to be cautious. The brother is more likely to be carrying it than to be clear too, surely, although he can't be homogeneous unless it is a trait with incomplete penetrance. That all makes some assumptions about inheritance given it is a multigene problem, but given how common the issue is in some breeds I suspect it could be close to a fair call. I think the view that it was inherited down the dam line only might have caused a few of the current problems. Edited July 11, 2013 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Whilst it might be quite common in the breed, it's not something that the breed community should be forgiving and forgetting about. Bitches that produce dogs without two fully descended testicles shouldn't be bred from again and we should also be taking a good look at their female progeny and considering removing them from the gene pool too. It's just my personal opinion of course and there will be others who disagree with it but what's the point of producing a cracking looking litter, with a fault like that. Would you use a sire again who had produced it Wreckit? Genuine question, I have no hands-on experience with the problem and no vested interest. Repro vets I have spoken to have been clear it is known now to be a multi-gene problem, but recessive. Both sire and dam must carry it to produce it. Previous thinking that it was just from the dam they reckon is disproved. That would be a no but many people will not talk about it and sometimes it's difficult to make informed choices. I do mark in my book the known combinations that have produced one or none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Something I find quite astounding is the number of owners and breeders who produce them and then desex the dog and show it in the neuter class. It's been a good way to build up the knowledge base, as most will tell you the reason why the dog is not entire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Would you use a sire again who had produced it Wreckit? Genuine question, I have no hands-on experience with the problem and no vested interest. Repro vets I have spoken to have been clear it is known now to be a multi-gene problem, but recessive. Both sire and dam must carry it to produce it. Previous thinking that it was just from the dam they reckon is disproved. That would be a no but many people will not talk about it and sometimes it's difficult to make informed choices. I do mark in my book the known combinations that have produced one or none. Yep, making an informed choice can be difficult. Really needs the people in the breed to work together and that is far from a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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