Pomeranian Having Trouble Breathing

[westiemum]

Hi J, don't want to appear like I'm pushing a barrow but are his lung X-rays normal and has the vet actually scoped him under light sedation? If his lung X-ray is normal then it's likely an upper respiratory tract issue (trachea/ larynx/ pharynx). In small dogs tracheal collapse is more common but as I've just found out laryngeal paralysis, usually seen in a few large breeds is not unknown in small breeds. In Macs case I'm suspicious that it was progressive and I mistook his increased panting prior to his respiratory crisis two weeks ago today, as dementia panting when it was actually worsening airway obstruction. Can't be sure, but he is so much better since his surgery two weeks ago today it makes you seriously wonder.

So I suppose what I'm suggesting is a lung/chest xray if he hasn't already had one and a sedated tracheal examination ASAP so you get to the bottom of what is going on really quickly. See Macs dementia thread for his laryngeal paralysis details.

ETA things like O2 tents, masks humidifiers are not likely to solve this if its a mechanical/ airway obstruction. I know diagnosis isn't cheap but you can spend a lot of money chasing rabbits down every hole when in cases like this you really need a firm diagnosis. So don't be afraid to get second opinions if your current advice isn't helping.

Edited July 7, 2013 by westiemum

[mita]

Be warned, distressing to watch. But someone videotaped their dog struggling to breathe before being taken to the vet.... who diagnosed laryngeal paralysis. Seems it was not in episodes, but constant.

[Cody]

Mita, that dogs gums and tongue look blue... do you know if that was a symptom of the condition?

Yellowgirl, are Chesters gums and tongue blue?

[mita]

Mita, that dogs gums and tongue look blue... do you know if that was a symptom of the condition?

Yellowgirl, are Chesters gums and tongue blue?

Don't know, Cody. But I notice there's saliva dripping. Laryngeal paralysis wouldn't make it easy to swallow.

It's also constant. Not coming in episodes because the paralysis exists all the time.

[westiemum]

Mita thanks for posting - and yes that's what I woke up to last Sunday two weeks ago. But it got to that continuous point suddenly - his panting ( or what I thought was panting ) was quite episodic for the previous three to four days so I suspect the paralysis was progressive. Mac was periodically uncomfortable and restlessly pacing overnight until the Saturday evening before his crisis where he didn't settle at all. The emergency vet explained he couldn't get air lying down so was pacing - and boy was he pacing. But I was still putting it down to dementia.

So YG saying he's more comfortable upright and the vid of his breathing suggests to me he needs comprehensive investigation sooner rather than later. Could still be upper respiratory or lower respiratory or both - looking at the vid I'd guess upper but only proper investigation will tell definitively. Good luck Chester. And YG.

[mita]

That makes sense, westie... about the complete paralysis coming on gradually. So would be episodic at first.

Interesting YG says he's more comfortable upright.... which means something relating to air flow is then less cut off.

ADDED: We had a family member who'd get nocturnal asthma & propping her up with pillows so the upper part of her body remained upright... used to be more comfortable for her.

I don't want to throw in a red herring but we had an elderly pom, as kids, (inherited from elderly neighbour who died), who'd get episodic 'struggling to breathe' fits. The vet, at the time, with not a lot of technology, called it 'asthma'.

Edited July 7, 2013 by mita

[westiemum]

1373179673[/url]' post='6246661']

1373179217[/url]' post='6246655']

Mita, that dogs gums and tongue look blue... do you know if that was a symptom of the condition?

Yellowgirl, are Chesters gums and tongue blue?

Don't know, Cody. But I notice there's saliva dripping. Laryngeal paralysis wouldn't make it easy to swallow.

It's also constant. Not coming in episodes because the paralysis exists all the time.

Yes blue is a symptom as is high CO2 levels. These dogs are not getting O2 which can lead to all sorts of things eg fainting. Actually paralysis can be progressive - it can be underlying until its suddenly clinically obvious. So it can seem episodic to start with - particularly if there is an underlying more generalised neurological cause as is starting to be seen in these dogs - GOLPP. Swallowing is an oesophageal not tracheal function although the 'cap' at the top of the trachea ( airway) - the epiglottis- covers the top of the airway during swallowing to prevent solids and liquids entering the airway. Hope that helps. ( I'm an ex- Speechie )

Edited July 7, 2013 by westiemum

[Marion 01]

Hello yellowgirl, I emailed you via facebook.

I have been following Chesters problems since you got him, and he has exactly the same symptoms as our 13yr old Tibetan Terrier who started off with a runny/stuffy nose and loud snoring breathing, went to the vet who thought she might have had an infection so gave her a course of abs, they

did nothing, so back for another visit, and this time he looked in her mouth and saw a big lump on the soft part of the roof of her mouth, we left her there so that he could have a good look under GA and do an aspiration test, he thought a biopsy would be too dangerous where it was, the results came back that it was lymphoma, she was put on a course of macrolone tablets, but about 2 or 3 days into taking the tablets, she started getting weak in the back end, and by early one morning she could only drag herself along on her rear as her back legs were between her front legs and

even if we stood her up she would go back into that position. Her breathing all through this was horrific and many a night I would sit up with her just like you are doing with Chester, unfortunately she had to be given her wings, and the fact that it was so far advanced before showing any signs was a shock to us. Chesters symptoms sound so much like Mindys, also taking into account that Chester is a much smaller dog, so a much smaller mouth and throat area. Hoping it is not what Mindy had and you have a positive outcome for little Chester.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Marion 01

[tdierikx]

Is there any way to prop Chester's head up on a pillow or something when he's lying down? Something supporting his head in a more upright position might help a bit... the video seems to show that his breathing gets worse when his head tilts downwards - as it also does when he is drinking... maybe he does have a tracheal issue?

T.

[yellowgirl]

Hi J, don't want to appear like I'm pushing a barrow but are his lung X-rays normal and has the vet actually scoped him under light sedation? If his lung X-ray is normal then it's likely an upper respiratory tract issue (trachea/ larynx/ pharynx). In small dogs tracheal collapse is more common but as I've just found out laryngeal paralysis, usually seen in a few large breeds is not unknown in small breeds. In Macs case I'm suspicious that it was progressive and I mistook his increased panting prior to his respiratory crisis two weeks ago today, as dementia panting when it was actually worsening airway obstruction. Can't be sure, but he is so much better since his surgery two weeks ago today it makes you seriously wonder.

So I suppose what I'm suggesting is a lung/chest xray if he hasn't already had one and a sedated tracheal examination ASAP so you get to the bottom of what is going on really quickly. See Macs dementia thread for his laryngeal paralysis details.

ETA things like O2 tents, masks humidifiers are not likely to solve this if its a mechanical/ airway obstruction. I know diagnosis isn't cheap but you can spend a lot of money chasing rabbits down every hole when in cases like this you really need a firm diagnosis. So don't be afraid to get second opinions if your current advice isn't helping.

I'm going to ask for xrays tomorrow westiemum. I would also like him to be sedated for a thorough nose/throat check. I want proper answers now, there's something wrong and I'm worried that it's more than just a nasal infection. I haven't caught up with what's happened with your darling Mac but I will check the thread a little later. I should add too that your thread helped me a lot with Raffi's onset of dementia and he's now on Vivitonin. xx

Be warned, distressing to watch. But someone videotaped their dog struggling to breathe before being taken to the vet.... who diagnosed laryngeal paralysis. Seems it was not in episodes, but constant.

That poor dog and his poor owners Chester's breathing is different to this and it's not constant. I've taken a couple more videos and will upload them shortly.xx

Mita, that dogs gums and tongue look blue... do you know if that was a symptom of the condition?

Yellowgirl, are Chesters gums and tongue blue?

It's hard to see his gums Cody as he gets quite stressed when anyone fiddles with his mouth. I know he can't do too much damage with his two teeth but it stresses him out to the point that he can't breath. I'll get the vet to check properly tomorrow. His tongue is pink if that helps. xx

Mita thanks for posting - and yes that's what I woke up to last Sunday two weeks ago. But it got to that continuous point suddenly - his panting ( or what I thought was panting ) was quite episodic for the previous three to four days so I suspect the paralysis was progressive. Mac was periodically uncomfortable and restlessly pacing overnight until the Saturday evening before his crisis where he didn't settle at all. The emergency vet explained he couldn't get air lying down so was pacing - and boy was he pacing. But I was still putting it down to dementia.

So YG saying he's more comfortable upright and the vid of his breathing suggests to me he needs comprehensive investigation sooner rather than later. Could still be upper respiratory or lower respiratory or both - looking at the vid I'd guess upper but only proper investigation will tell definitively. Good luck Chester. And YG.

You've had such a rough time with Mac lately westiemum, he's so lucky to have you

That makes sense, westie... about the complete paralysis coming on gradually. So would be episodic at first.

Interesting YG says he's more comfortable upright.... which means something relating to air flow is then less cut off.

ADDED: We had a family member who'd get nocturnal asthma & propping her up with pillows so the upper part of her body remained upright... used to be more comfortable for her.

I don't want to throw in a red herring but we had an elderly pom, as kids, (inherited from elderly neighbour who died), who'd get episodic 'struggling to breathe' fits. The vet, at the time, with not a lot of technology, called it 'asthma'.

I think he's more comfortable upright because his mouth is open a bit that way, mita, although you may be right, it could also be the position he's in which makes it easier for him to get more air.

I have another little Pom here as well, another senior boy with all sorts of issues including night time seizures. Luckily we've been able to get to the bottom of everything and he's on all the right meds. He's not technically adoptable, but he has a great quality of life now. I was advised by some people to have him put to sleep because we struggled for a while getting to the bottom of his issues. The expense, the heartache, the sleepless nights, they were all worth it, and he's very happy and pretty healthy now, especially considering how sick he was before, I just want the same thing for Chester. xx

1373179673[/url]' post='6246661']

1373179217[/url]' post='6246655']

Mita, that dogs gums and tongue look blue... do you know if that was a symptom of the condition?

Yellowgirl, are Chesters gums and tongue blue?

Don't know, Cody. But I notice there's saliva dripping. Laryngeal paralysis wouldn't make it easy to swallow.

It's also constant. Not coming in episodes because the paralysis exists all the time.

Yes blue is a symptom as is high CO2 levels. These dogs are not getting O2 which can lead to all sorts of things eg fainting. Actually paralysis can be progressive - it can be underlying until its suddenly clinically obvious. So it can seem episodic to start with - particularly if there is an underlying more generalised neurological cause as is starting to be seen in these dogs - GOLPP. Swallowing is an eosaphageal not tracheal function although the 'cap' at the top of the trachea ( airway) - the epiglottis- covers the top of the airway during swallowing to prevent solids and liquids entering the airway. Hope that helps. ( I'm an ex- Speechie )

Chester doesn't have saliva dripping, but that's not to say that he's not actually experiencing some form of laryngeal paralysis. Thanks for the extra info westiemum. xx

[westiemum]

Good post Marion. I think it supports the need for a thorough investigation

ETA pleasure YG - as other posters have said too this might be a number of things so I hope they get to the bottom of it for you tomorrow. All fingers and paws crossed for you here.

Edited July 7, 2013 by westiemum

[yellowgirl]

Hello yellowgirl, I emailed you via facebook.

I have been following Chesters problems since you got him, and he has exactly the same symptoms as our 13yr old Tibetan Terrier who started off with a runny/stuffy nose and loud snoring breathing, went to the vet who thought she might have had an infection so gave her a course of abs, they

did nothing, so back for another visit, and this time he looked in her mouth and saw a big lump on the soft part of the roof of her mouth, we left her there so that he could have a good look under GA and do an aspiration test, he thought a biopsy would be too dangerous where it was, the results came back that it was lymphoma, she was put on a course of macrolone tablets, but about 2 or 3 days into taking the tablets, she started getting weak in the back end, and by early one morning she could only drag herself along on her rear as her back legs were between her front legs and

even if we stood her up she would go back into that position. Her breathing all through this was horrific and many a night I would sit up with her just like you are doing with Chester, unfortunately she had to be given her wings, and the fact that it was so far advanced before showing any signs was a shock to us. Chesters symptoms sound so much like Mindys, also taking into account that Chester is a much smaller dog, so a much smaller mouth and throat area. Hoping it is not what Mindy had and you have a positive outcome for little Chester.

Thank you so much for your message Marion, I really appreciate it. Sorry I haven't managed to reply yet, I'm glad you posted it here though as it may be helpful for anyone else who's going through something similar. I'm hoping to have Chester fully and completely checked under anaesthetic tomorrow. I'm so very sorry for what you and your little one went through *hugs*. xx

Is there any way to prop Chester's head up on a pillow or something when he's lying down? Something supporting his head in a more upright position might help a bit... the video seems to show that his breathing gets worse when his head tilts downwards - as it also does when he is drinking... maybe he does have a tracheal issue?

T.

I'll grab some more blankets, tdierikx, and make a bit of a surrounding pillow for him. xx

Edited July 7, 2013 by yellowgirl

[yellowgirl]

Good post Marion. I think it supports the need for a thorough investigation

Me too. xx

[mita]

YG, there's a comprehensive list of Respiratory System Diseases here ... written by a vet. Very interesting.

http://www.k911.biz/Petsafety/RespiratorySystemDiseases.htm

About the sleeping position. I've got a tibbie who prefers to sleep on her stomach.... but with a pillow allowing her chest/head to be more upright. Nothing wrong with her.... but for some reason, she's more comfortable like that. Sometimes it'll be her chin resting up on the pillow.

The tibbie next door also likes that position. None of our other dogs... like shelties... did that.

[westiemum]

1373184183[/url]' post='6246747']

YG, there's a comprehensive list of Respiratory System Diseases here ... written by a vet. Very interesting.

http://www.k911.biz/...temDiseases.htm

About the sleeping position. I've got a tibbie who prefers to sleep on her stomach.... but with a pillow allowing her chest/head to be more upright. Nothing wrong with her.... but for some reason, she's more comfortable like that. Sometimes it'll be her chin resting up on the pillow.

The tibbie next door also likes that position. None of our other dogs... like shelties... did that.

Yep Mita, Andy my littlest Westie likes to do that too but the others don't.

[yellowgirl]

YG, there's a comprehensive list of Respiratory System Diseases here ... written by a vet. Very interesting.

http://www.k911.biz/Petsafety/RespiratorySystemDiseases.htm

About the sleeping position. I've got a tibbie who prefers to sleep on her stomach.... but with a pillow allowing her chest/head to be more upright. Nothing wrong with her.... but for some reason, she's more comfortable like that. Sometimes it'll be her chin resting up on the pillow.

The tibbie next door also likes that position. None of our other dogs... like shelties... did that.

Thanks for the link, mita, I'll have a look when I get a minute. I have a couple of bubs here that also like a pillow, or their head resting higher up, same as your girl, no reason, they just like it :)

[yellowgirl]

My computer is slow today, looks like the videos will take about an hour to load. I'll get the bubs fed and medicated and read some of the links in the meantime. xx

[Nekhbet]

He has a heavy growth of Morganella, it's resistant to most antibiotics out there

Treatment of M. morganii infections may include:

Ticarcillin

Piperacillin

Ciprofloxacin

Third-generation and Fourth-generation cephalosporins

A study conducted at the University Hospital at Heraklion, Crete, Greece showed a 92% success rate in the use of these antibiotics.[13]

However, there are M. morganii strains are resistant to penicillin, ampicillin/sulbactam, oxacillin, first-generation and second-generation cephalosporins, macrolides, lincosamides, fosfomycin, colistin, and polymyxin B.[3] The emergence of highly resistant strains of M. morganii have been associated with use of third-generation cephalosporins.[3]

Polymicrobial infections are most abundantly caused by this microbe which additionally damages the skin, soft tissues, and urogenital tract can be cured through use of the aforementioned antibiotics.[13]

Such a severe infection could also probably warrant IV antibiotics and a drip to ensure a proper dose is being received.

[westiemum]

Mita that link is terrific - have bookmarked it for future reference. Thanks for posting. Have a good look Jo - something might be helpful there. Good luck for tomorrow - will be thinking of you.

[tdierikx]

He has a heavy growth of Morganella, it's resistant to most antibiotics out there

Treatment of M. morganii infections may include:

Ticarcillin

Piperacillin

Ciprofloxacin

Third-generation and Fourth-generation cephalosporins

A study conducted at the University Hospital at Heraklion, Crete, Greece showed a 92% success rate in the use of these antibiotics.[13]

However, there are M. morganii strains are resistant to penicillin, ampicillin/sulbactam, oxacillin, first-generation and second-generation cephalosporins, macrolides, lincosamides, fosfomycin, colistin, and polymyxin B.[3] The emergence of highly resistant strains of M. morganii have been associated with use of third-generation cephalosporins.[3]

Polymicrobial infections are most abundantly caused by this microbe which additionally damages the skin, soft tissues, and urogenital tract can be cured through use of the aforementioned antibiotics.[13]

Such a severe infection could also probably warrant IV antibiotics and a drip to ensure a proper dose is being received.

I looked up Morganella too... and the nasal swab tests indicated which drugs seemed to smack it about - the ones that had 2 S's might be effective...

Poor little man... I sure hope the vet can make him feel better soon - if only to let him get some much needed uninterrupted sleep.

YG - can you plant a kiss on his forehead from me please? And tell him that Aunty Tracey says he's got to be nice to the vet so he can help him get better soon.

T.