Pack Issues?

[dougal]

I have two undesexed females, both 8 years old. Usually they get on well and I don't have any problems. However, the last couple of days they have taken a general dislike to each other, with one resource guarding more than usual, which seems to be the start of the problem. The one that I'd describe as No 1 (top dog) usually doesn't bother too much when the other one growls over toys etc, but for some reason they are both going at each other now. Neither are in season. The top dog is also a bit more clingy to me - eg sitting on my feet rather than just close by, at my feet everywhere I go. One has had a trip to the vet as skin was broken in the first episode (nothing serious just me being careful).

I'm seeing the vet next week and will discuss desexing.... but wondered if anybody has any ideas why they have suddenly developed an issue.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Desex both of them.

One or both might have an increase in hormones due to ovarian abnormalities, I'm just guessing here, but once they have a serious fight you may have to keep them permanently separate forever more.

Sounds like you've been lucky so far. :)

After that you need to examine what's changed (if anything) in the environment, institute a NILIF program and seek further advice if problems continue.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Staff'n'Toller

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Desex them immediately.

Once two bitches fight, they don't get over it and you'll forever have to keep them separated.

[Jumabaar]

Desexing bitches can make them even worse. I would suggest checking them out health wise and seeing a veterinary behaviourist to see if there is anything else you could do before desexing them (not saying not to do it in the long term, just to start working on the problem before you change the situation again). Either way I doubt desexing is going to HELP the situation.

Perhaps look at complete separation until you can get some advice. As others have said once you have a big fight you will probably have to do this anyway, so being cautious now and getting help may prevent this.

[dougal]

Just in case I'm doing the wrong thing when they fight, appreciate any other advice. I'm separating by removing one to a crate, with the other (top dog) uncrated. After some time, when they have settled, letting them back inside together. They normally sleep together in a crate - without problems. One of them needs to be crated otherwise she will urinate inside (lazy) and will howl all night if she doesn't have the other one with her. The other one (top dog) will happily sleep anywhere, crated or not and will hang on for lengthy periods rather than soil inside.

The vet checked out the one that was injured the other night, nothing found eg temp normal etc.

Aah, just realised what one problem is.....me! They have both been sleeping peacefully. One went outside, when she came back in, the other one quickly jumped up to keep her away from me.

[megan_]

Please don't lock them in a crate together - it leaves no flight option.

[persephone]

I advise getting professional help with this - it can go very wrong in a second

The one you think is 'top' dog may be weakening , one may be resource guarding ..... it would be advisable to ask someone here for a recommendation ..get an assessment done ,then address the future management .

sorry it's all gone bad.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Personally, I believe it is unacceptable to have dogs fighting that injure each other.

Two females isn't always a good option, can depend on the breed.

If you aren't a breeder and don't show them, there is not reason to keep them undesexed.

They should not be locked in anywhere together if they fight and you might need to consider rehoming one for their best interests.

[dougal]

Dogmad, both were shown, and now that they are older, desexing is something that has been in the back of my mind, for their health. Earlier on it was my intention to breed, but I came to the conclusion there are enough others out there doing so, and if I want another show dog my breeder will oblige :)

I stress this is not a long term problem, and I would never have classed them as "fighters". They are a pretty docile, happy breed and generally laid back. it is only the last couple of days they have been acting differently towards each other,which made me wonder what has changed or what I might be doing differently that is contributing. The breeder has had them on several occasions for several weeks and commented on how well they get along.

Persephone, perhaps you are right in that the usually stronger one is weakening, or alternatively as Staffntoller suggested, a change in hormones.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions, I have an appointment with the vet this week, who is a breed specialist, hopefully she can shed some light.

[Diva]

A vet check is a good idea, sometimes it can be illness or pain causing a change like this. Or something has changed in the household that you are not concious is affecting them.

Desexing can increase aggression in females, also something to bear in mind if you are thinking of taking that route.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Diva

[Nekhbet]

If you're going to desex you only do one of them, otherwise they're both still evenly matched. You have to tip the scales of balance to keep things even ... irony I know. I find that uneven par with bitches is the best way to keep the peace.

[dougal]

Thanks Nekhbet - I had wondered about that :)

[Nekhbet]

I have 5 bitches ranging from 2 years to almost 11, trust me on this one :laugh: The grumbles that may crop up disperse quickly because they're all uneven in either age, health or size and the ranks are shifting quietly. The old entire Malinois is happy to let the young entire slowly take her rank, they never argue but the desexed 2 year old Mal is put in her place by both of them. The pug thinks she's the boss but she doesnt come up past their ankles so they ignore all her behavior :laugh:

saying that when we are not home they're separated off into either singles or pairs. The systems working but I'm not going to leave that many dogs alone unattended, especially when two are so much smaller.

[corvus]

There is science behind Nekhbet's advice. Scott and Fuller nearly 50 years ago suggested the more alike two dogs were the more their competitive niche overlapped and therefore the more likely they were to come into conflict and fight. Although, it's probably not that straight forward with desexing. The survey I did a couple of years ago showed entire dogs of both sexes were bolder than desexed dogs. There were no correlations with age or gender, but boldness decreased with age. There are hints in the literature that desexing may alter emotional reactivity. It's all very mysterious to me. I think we understand the effects of desexing hardly at all. If I were going to keep them both I'd desex the least outgoing one.

[dougal]

Thanks Diva - the one I would consider desexing first, is the one that is the most pushy of the two (starts the growling), although not top dog. Usually the other one just ignores her. I was hopeful desexing would calm her down; more to think about.

Aah Corvus, that all makes sense. They are both of similar age (8 months between), although of different lines. The older (top dog) is pretty easy going, and confident in herself. The younger is bolder, but lacks confidence; starts a fuss, then runs and lets the other one sort out what she started eg the younger one will happily go to meet a larger dog, then become overwhelmed, nervous and start to bark at the other dog - the older one will come to her aid. She also becomes stressed when left of her own. In contrast the older one takes it all in her stride.

Edited July 8, 2013 by dougal

[Nekhbet]

Before desexing you can try Covinan shots in one or both bitches, it prevents them coming on heat. I used it with my eldest bitch and found it mellowed her a lot and now her and the younger can be on heat at the same time ... and be the bestest buddies EVER. It's creepy actually :laugh: