Ignorance Is Alive And Well...

[tdierikx]

Yesterday I was chatting with a workmate who has a Beagle pup around 6 months of age - he bought her on limited register (he claims that the breeder wanted $300 more if on mains).

Anyhow, like any normal pet owner, I asked when he was going to get his girl desexed...

... and he said he wants to breed with her... *facepalm*

So I asked him whether he was prepared for the costs involved in breeding his girl... upkeep during pregnancy, possible issues with whelping necessitating things like emergency caesarians, extra care during the pups' first few weeks, possibility of eclampsia, etc, etc... I gave him a few examples of issues and costs we've had when we've taken in pregnant Beagles at our rescue just for good measure...

Somehow I think he's now leaning towards desexing his girl... *grin*

Thanks DOL for the liberal amount of info posted about the risks of breeding when you have no clue what you are getting into.

T.

[*kirty*]

I spent 20 mins yesterday trying to explain to a client at work why it was a bad idea to breed his crossbred dog with severe entropion... Some people just have no idea.

Edited July 6, 2013 by *kirty*

[OSoSwift]

I have spend hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for my litter that is due in 8 days and they are not here yet! If anything goes South, well that will be more cost. They have no idea.

As for breeding with dogs with issues like entropian - you did well not to jump the counter and punch him - idiot!

[Dame Aussie]

OH's parents are going to breed their SBT girl. I've told them I think it's a dumb idea, also asked them how they will deal if there is an emergency...they think it'll all be lovely and fun.

Can't do much else.

[Alkhe]

OH's parents are going to breed their SBT girl. I've told them I think it's a dumb idea, also asked them how they will deal if there is an emergency...they think it'll all be lovely and fun.

Can't do much else.

Show them the listings of dogs available at every. single. pound. in. Australia. Ask them if they really think the world needs more staffy types.

[tdierikx]

I have spend hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for my litter that is due in 8 days and they are not here yet! If anything goes South, well that will be more cost. They have no idea.

As for breeding with dogs with issues like entropian - you did well not to jump the counter and punch him - idiot!

Whippet babies? You are SO going to have to post LOTS of photos!!!

T.

[OSoSwift]

I have spend hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for my litter that is due in 8 days and they are not here yet! If anything goes South, well that will be more cost. They have no idea.

As for breeding with dogs with issues like entropian - you did well not to jump the counter and punch him - idiot!

Whippet babies? You are SO going to have to post LOTS of photos!!!

T.

I am quite sure I can provide lots of photos :)

She is enormous at the moment so I think there may be a few :)

[cali]

I have seriously listened to people having breeding conversations that were PRO breeding dogs with genetic problems..seriously the argument being that its "elitist" to only breed dogs free of genetic issues! the most recent case of this started at a family reunion last year, my uncle was telling us about his sons dog, a Shiba Inu that was neutered and "petted out" by the breeder because he has a bad overbite..this resulted head shaking and looks of disgust around the circle..how dare the breeder not breed this dog just because he has an overbite followed by rants about breeders who refuse to breed animals that have genetic health issues

[tdierikx]

The guy at my work said "what is so hard about it?"... he was of the opinion that it's something dogs do just fine naturally... until I infomed him of all the things that could go wrong and hit his hip pocket very hard - not to mention the chance of his girl dying in the process...

For good measure, I threw in an analogy... would he "breed" his wife willy nilly just because she was a "nice girl"? Should have seen the look on his face... lol!

T.

[JaneH]

For good measure, I threw in an analogy... would he "breed" his wife willy nilly just because she was a "nice girl"? Should have seen the look on his face... lol!

T.

I will have to remember this one ! Gold !

[BJean]

Yesterday I was chatting with a workmate who has a Beagle pup around 6 months of age - he bought her on limited register (he claims that the breeder wanted $300 more if on mains).

Anyhow, like any normal pet owner, I asked when he was going to get his girl desexed...

... and he said he wants to breed with her... *facepalm*

Nothing wrong with that. Indeed I think it is an inexpensive price difference.

Remember when you buy on main, you are buying bloodlines.

Edited July 6, 2013 by lilli

[Ruin Maniac]

Sarcasm alert!

Don't you silly people know? Dogs are animals! They breed in the wild, they can do it themselves, there's ZERO human intervention needed, EVER! Dogs don't need C-sections (and that's the ONLY thing breeders, like, actually ever do for their pregnant dogs, that's all their efforts surmount to), that's totally UNNATURAL. If they needed surgery in the wild, they would die, duh. You OBVIOUSLY don't care about them if you're breeding dogs that would DIE in the WILD because they are WILD ANIMALS.

Oh, did I mention we need to stop breeding them anyway? We should make it so people can only adopt desexed dogs from shelters. Yeah. They'll be totes fine without those horrible breeder people. I mean they can breed on their own, so yeah, it will be SO much better.

WHAT? What do you mean that will make them go extinct? How do you think they survive on their own? You make it sound like I want to kill them all or something, YOU'RE THE ONE THAT SUPPORTS ANIMAL CRUELTY. YOU GET DOGS FROM BREEDERS.

Seriously, though. I exaggerated the language and cut out a lot of terrible analogies but I've had arguments with people whose position basically boils down to the above. At university. People who are supposedly the future of the country. In a subject that had a significant animal science component.

It is an epidemic.

What I really don't understand is how there are millions of people with millions of dogs in this country, when only a handful know anything about their behavior and how to recognize it, their needs - nevermind their biology. It is the cause of so many problems.

[tdierikx]

Yesterday I was chatting with a workmate who has a Beagle pup around 6 months of age - he bought her on limited register (he claims that the breeder wanted $300 more if on mains).

Anyhow, like any normal pet owner, I asked when he was going to get his girl desexed...

... and he said he wants to breed with her... *facepalm*

Nothing wrong with that. Indeed I think it is an inexpensive price difference.

Remember when you buy on main, you are buying bloodlines.

He could have had the same dog on mains for $300 extra apparently. I know where he got his girl from, and they breed predominantly for the pet market... that said, they'd probably be horrified that he has decided he now wants to breed her.

I didn't give him the whole rescue speil... I don't believe that breeders should be stopped from breeding their pedigreed dogs. I firmly believe there is room for all types of dogs as pets - pure or crossed. But I'm dead against ignorant people deciding to breed their dog just for the hell of it - without taking into account any of the things that could go wrong.

T.

[sandgrubber]

1373128635[/url]' post='6246313']

I have seriously listened to people having breeding conversations that were PRO breeding dogs with genetic problems..seriously the argument being that its "elitist" to only breed dogs free of genetic issues! the most recent case of this started at a family reunion last year, my uncle was telling us about his sons dog, a Shiba Inu that was neutered and "petted out" by the breeder because he has a bad overbite..this resulted head shaking and looks of disgust around the circle..how dare the breeder not breed this dog just because he has an overbite followed by rants about breeders who refuse to breed animals that have genetic health issues

I'd say MOST dogs have genetic problems. Would I breed a Lab with EIC? Sure. It's not a good thing, and I'd prefer not to have it, but most affected dogs go through their entire lives without showing it. Would you breed a dog with allergies? Personally, I wouldn't, but many many pedigree dog breeders do. They just choose not to recognize that many allergies are hereditary, and no one is offering genetic testing....so the problem is ignored. How about a compromised immune system due to high homozygosity in the MHC/DLA? This is extremely widespread in breeds that descent from a very small founder population, and consequentially a high degree of inbreeding if you go back many generations. In some breeds, like Flatcoats and BMDs (both genetically predisposed to horrid cancers) it's hard to find dogs who are free from heritable genetic disease.

As for breeding the 'nice girl' .... I wish more pedigree dog owners bred for temperament as strongly as they breed for looks.

I'm not saying its ok to breed willy nilly. But this image of us, the pedigree crowd, as 'educated' and the rest of the world as 'ignorant' is pretty arrogant. I read quite a bit of genetics, and Im coming to understand about SNPs, microsattelites, etc. The more I learn, the more ignorant I feel. We have a way of paying attention to some genetic problems and kicking others under the rug. With the tide of popular opinion running against pedigree breeders, I don't think it's a good time to ride a high horse.

[RubyStar]

Seriously, though. I exaggerated the language and cut out a lot of terrible analogies but I've had arguments with people whose position basically boils down to the above. At university. People who are supposedly the future of the country. In a subject that had a significant animal science component.

This is why I can't study animal related units. I did so at TAFE a few years back and had steam coming out of my ears every week where the lecturer was brainwashing the students that purebred breeders are elitist, in it for the money, and that it was ok to breed crossbreds because of the whole hybrid vigour thing. I was appalled, and tried to bite my tongue but couldn't every week, and when I did speak up, I got into debates with the teacher and just got angrier I decided that I'll leave those type of people alone, you can't change their minds or educate them (funny how it was the teacher that needed educating, she really had it against purebred breeders) and that I am best to not study animal related units.

[Dame Aussie]

I really don't get the attitude some have that breeders are in it for the money, do they even stop to think for one second about the costs involved? If they did, I don't think they'd keep saying it.

My purebred Aussie was $600 five years ago. There were eleven pups in the litter. Microchipped/vaccinated/wormed/health tested etc. not much of a profit there.

[_PL_]

But people do make money doing it half arsed. To paraphrase one recent BYB who did nothing but keep her dogs pregnant and in runs with some food thrown at them....'I can make $3000 a go, they love to breed, it's what they were born to do, my dogs are happy'

Edited July 7, 2013 by Powerlegs

[Dame Aussie]

Poor dogs

[cali]

1373128635[/url]' post='6246313']

I have seriously listened to people having breeding conversations that were PRO breeding dogs with genetic problems..seriously the argument being that its "elitist" to only breed dogs free of genetic issues! the most recent case of this started at a family reunion last year, my uncle was telling us about his sons dog, a Shiba Inu that was neutered and "petted out" by the breeder because he has a bad overbite..this resulted head shaking and looks of disgust around the circle..how dare the breeder not breed this dog just because he has an overbite followed by rants about breeders who refuse to breed animals that have genetic health issues

I'd say MOST dogs have genetic problems. Would I breed a Lab with EIC? Sure. It's not a good thing, and I'd prefer not to have it, but most affected dogs go through their entire lives without showing it. Would you breed a dog with allergies? Personally, I wouldn't, but many many pedigree dog breeders do. They just choose not to recognize that many allergies are hereditary, and no one is offering genetic testing....so the problem is ignored. How about a compromised immune system due to high homozygosity in the MHC/DLA? This is extremely widespread in breeds that descent from a very small founder population, and consequentially a high degree of inbreeding if you go back many generations. In some breeds, like Flatcoats and BMDs (both genetically predisposed to horrid cancers) it's hard to find dogs who are free from heritable genetic disease.

As for breeding the 'nice girl' .... I wish more pedigree dog owners bred for temperament as strongly as they breed for looks.

I'm not saying its ok to breed willy nilly. But this image of us, the pedigree crowd, as 'educated' and the rest of the world as 'ignorant' is pretty arrogant. I read quite a bit of genetics, and Im coming to understand about SNPs, microsattelites, etc. The more I learn, the more ignorant I feel. We have a way of paying attention to some genetic problems and kicking others under the rug. With the tide of popular opinion running against pedigree breeders, I don't think it's a good time to ride a high horse.

oh I know that, these were not people well versed in genetics thinking in detail these were people going "just because a dog as severe hip dysplasia doesn't mean it doesn't DESERVE to have puppies" lol

[tdierikx]

I have a feeling my workmate thought he'd be able to get $900 for each pup his girl produced... without thinking first of any of the costs involved in producing them. I just appraised him of some of the things that could go wrong and cost him more than he'd get back in puppy sale price...

I'm pretty sure he's rethinking his idea to breed her.

T.