Jumping Into Raw - Advice Needed!

[Nekhbet]

If the dog won't eat organ meat it's not an issue.

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if the dog wont eat it, it doesnt want it. I won't feed 100% meat only because I don't believe it's a healthy option for the dog, they're scavengers and will eat anything. No wild dog/wolf pops down to the supermarket or butcher and asks for some nicely trimmed up pieces to gnaw on :laugh: thats why I feed the VAN mix, works well for me.

[sheena]

The idea that kibble & fresh meat might digest at different rates & the meat therefor starts to ferment, is an interesting one, but can someone please explain to me, what the problem is if the meat starts to ferment. Especially seeing that VANs in made up and allowed to ferment before feeding it to the dog. If the kibble is wetted down first, does this help even up the digestion rates??

[Nekhbet]

Digestion is the enzyme breakdown of products to usable forms for the body which are absorbed through the intestinal wall. Fermentation, in essence 'rotting' is when the products left in the GI tract start being converted to sometimes toxic byproducts by bacterial and environmental action - these can then be absorbed into the body. It's why digestion - excretion rates are quite critical, too fast (in the case of intestinal upset/disease) causes weight loss and deficiency whereas too slow can cause intestinal upsets, toxin build up, flatulence (from products producing gasses, but thats not the only reason for it)

It's why when your dog gets constipated and it finally comes out it reeks to high heaven!

Saying that high kibble diets tend to increase the pH of the dogs stomach due to their low protein content (adaptory mechanism in response to diet), so when you do feed meat/bone in large amounts you find the dog can suffer for it as the meat is not being digested properly (you need a low pH for raw protein/bone matter) and as such the dog can eject it from either end. A bit of kibble in the meat mix should not though slow the digestive travel time to that slow a level it causes a problem, it's usually when done as a once off in poor GI health dogs you find problems. What is not digested is excreted and a dog on a high proportion raw diet I would think has a better chance of coping with a mixed meal then the reverse as the pH is already lower.

[Yonjuro]

Digestion is the enzyme breakdown of products to usable forms for the body which are absorbed through the intestinal wall. Fermentation, in essence 'rotting' is when the products left in the GI tract start being converted to sometimes toxic byproducts by bacterial and environmental action - these can then be absorbed into the body. It's why digestion - excretion rates are quite critical, too fast (in the case of intestinal upset/disease) causes weight loss and deficiency whereas too slow can cause intestinal upsets, toxin build up, flatulence (from products producing gasses, but thats not the only reason for it)

It's why when your dog gets constipated and it finally comes out it reeks to high heaven!

Saying that high kibble diets tend to increase the pH of the dogs stomach due to their low protein content (adaptory mechanism in response to diet), so when you do feed meat/bone in large amounts you find the dog can suffer for it as the meat is not being digested properly (you need a low pH for raw protein/bone matter) and as such the dog can eject it from either end. A bit of kibble in the meat mix should not though slow the digestive travel time to that slow a level it causes a problem, it's usually when done as a once off in poor GI health dogs you find problems. What is not digested is excreted and a dog on a high proportion raw diet I would think has a better chance of coping with a mixed meal then the reverse as the pH is already lower.

Nice post.

[sheena]

Thanks for that explanation. But where does that leave products like VAN which is already fermenting when you feed it to them Or for a naturally wild dog who eats the fermenting contents of a preys stomach

Edited July 6, 2013 by sheena

[blakkjackal]

The sardines you feed are the raw kind or the tinned ones? If they're raw, at least you're getting some organs. If they're tinned, eat them yourself. DTDO - If your dogs eat tinned fish, they are not exclusively raw fed.

As for organ, have you tried mixing it in mince, searing the outside, sticking it down his throat, doling it out as a treat/reward, freezing them, hiding it in half a chicken, trying different protein sources, accidentally dropping them, practising tough love (i.e. no other food unless he eats his organs)?

Personally I would not feed my lot any of the stuff you feed your older dog (save the eggs and lamb heart), so I'm not of any help there, sorry. From what you detailed though, it seems like WAY too much calcium, what more with kibble. I would not raise any pup on kibble ever again, much less kibble with so much added bone.

I would say feed the pup separately and not let the older dog's distaste of organs influence him. Introduce a variety of meats, cuts and protein sources as early as you can (depending on tolerance). Plus try whole prey for both dogs like rabbit, fish or quail.

Raw meat (not bones) mixed with kibble is fine, but that defeats the reason of feeding either - I assume dry for convenience and raw for optimal health and knowing what exactly you're feeding. Even cooking/dehydrating/baking the organs is better than feeding kibble, not that it's recommended!

Could you please explain what is wrong with the stuff the OP feeds her adult dog? If you do not feed your dog any of the listed things. What do they eat? Ithought it was a pretty comprehensive list.

I'm not minyvlz but I agree with minyvlz's posts. I wouldn't feed too many things off that list either. Chicken necks, turkey necks and chicken frames are awfully bony, have very little actual food (=meat) on them and are pretty much a waste of money because the dog gets hardly anything out of them. Ox tail fed sparingly and in big chunks is fine, but still quite bony. I don't feed mince for several reasons, one of them being that I like to know exactly what goes down my dog's throat at dinner time. Second one being there is no actual "eating" (teeth using) involved, mince just gets gobbled up. Red (I think OP means raw?) meaty bones, no thanks. Another waste of money because of the crazy bone content. Raw eggs are good tho. Dairy products are not something a carnivore needs and the dry food bit hardly needs explaining.

I feed lots of different cuts, mainly pork, roo, lamb, beef, turkey and a bit of chicken every now and then as the bone is edible and easy. Forequarter chops and hearts are my staple and I have a great supplier for huge roo chunks. I buy whole chickens and the occasional turkey thighs from supermarkets when they're reduced. I feed organs weekly, mainly kidney and liver but whenever I find brains I buy them. Bone always gets fed covered in meat (I like lamb necks, turkey thighs, half/whole/quartered chicken) and I only feed bone maybe 3 times a week. As I don't include fish in the dog's diet (too pricey) I give a vitamin D supplement and fish oil capsules for general health and omegas. This list isn't everything I feed, just the things I can think of right now.

Anyway the most important thing about raw feeding a dog (especially a puppy) is to make sure that they get enough food. Real meat (red should be preferred although poultry does have its place as it is reasonably priced), not chunks of cartilage or bone covered in a couple of meat ribbons but a lot of various animals and a healthy amount of fat. Fat is the main energy source for dogs so it is essential to include that (pork is a good fatty meat). Always keep in mind that bone is not food, it is only used for calcium and the excess is just a useless stomach filler/bulk provider for firmer poops.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Hockz

[teekay]

The sardines you feed are the raw kind or the tinned ones? If they're raw, at least you're getting some organs. If they're tinned, eat them yourself. DTDO - If your dogs eat tinned fish, they are not exclusively raw fed.

As for organ, have you tried mixing it in mince, searing the outside, sticking it down his throat, doling it out as a treat/reward, freezing them, hiding it in half a chicken, trying different protein sources, accidentally dropping them, practising tough love (i.e. no other food unless he eats his organs)?

Personally I would not feed my lot any of the stuff you feed your older dog (save the eggs and lamb heart), so I'm not of any help there, sorry. From what you detailed though, it seems like WAY too much calcium, what more with kibble. I would not raise any pup on kibble ever again, much less kibble with so much added bone.

I would say feed the pup separately and not let the older dog's distaste of organs influence him. Introduce a variety of meats, cuts and protein sources as early as you can (depending on tolerance). Plus try whole prey for both dogs like rabbit, fish or quail.

Raw meat (not bones) mixed with kibble is fine, but that defeats the reason of feeding either - I assume dry for convenience and raw for optimal health and knowing what exactly you're feeding. Even cooking/dehydrating/baking the organs is better than feeding kibble, not that it's recommended!

Could you please explain what is wrong with the stuff the OP feeds her adult dog? If you do not feed your dog any of the listed things. What do they eat? Ithought it was a pretty comprehensive list.

I'm not minyvlz but I agree with minyvlz's posts. I wouldn't feed too many things off that list either. Chicken necks, turkey necks and chicken frames are awfully bony, have very little actual food (=meat) on them and are pretty much a waste of money because the dog gets hardly anything out of them. Ox tail fed sparingly and in big chunks is fine, but still quite bony. I don't feed mince for several reasons, one of them being that I like to know exactly what goes down my dog's throat at dinner time. Second one being there is no actual "eating" (teeth using) involved, mince just gets gobbled up. Red (I think OP means raw?) meaty bones, no thanks. Another waste of money because of the crazy bone content. Raw eggs are good tho. Dairy products are not something a carnivore needs and the dry food bit hardly needs explaining.

I feed lots of different cuts, mainly pork, roo, lamb, beef, turkey and a bit of chicken every now and then as the bone is edible and easy. Forequarter chops and hearts are my staple and I have a great supplier for huge roo chunks. I buy whole chickens and the occasional turkey thighs from supermarkets when they're reduced. I feed organs weekly, mainly kidney and liver but whenever I find brains I buy them. Bone always gets fed covered in meat (I like lamb necks, turkey thighs, half/whole/quartered chicken) and I only feed bone maybe 3 times a week. As I don't include fish in the dog's diet (too pricey) I give a vitamin D supplement and fish oil capsules for general health and omegas. This list isn't everything I feed, just the things I can think of right now.

Anyway the most important thing about raw feeding a dog (especially a puppy) is to make sure that they get enough food. Real meat (red should be preferred although poultry does have its place as it is reasonably priced), not chunks of cartilage or bone covered in a couple of meat ribbons but a lot of various animals and a healthy amount of fat. Fat is the main energy source for dogs so it is essential to include that (pork is a good fatty meat). Always keep in mind that bone is not food, it is only used for calcium and the excess is just a useless stomach filler/bulk provider for firmer poops.

Thanks for the reply Hockz. Interesting stuff

[Crisovar]

Chicken necks, turkey necks and chicken frames are awfully bony, have very little actual food (=meat) on them and are pretty much a waste of money because the dog gets hardly anything out of them.

Interesting ....huge amount of good meat on the turkey necks I use, certainly not a waste of money IMO..each to his own I guess

[cassie]

I think turkey necks are quite good too.

Loved your detailed post Hockz, thanks for the info. May I ask how much it costs you to feed all that meat? I occasionally find cheap stuff but never enough of it.

I have fed a variation of a prey model diet in the past, but am currently using kibble. I don't trust myself to get it 100% perfect for my baby Saint Bernard puppy, and I refuse to take the risk. It's something I'm always very interested in though so I enjoy these threads a lot.

[blakkjackal]

I think turkey necks are quite good too.

Loved your detailed post Hockz, thanks for the info. May I ask how much it costs you to feed all that meat? I occasionally find cheap stuff but never enough of it.

I have fed a variation of a prey model diet in the past, but am currently using kibble. I don't trust myself to get it 100% perfect for my baby Saint Bernard puppy, and I refuse to take the risk. It's something I'm always very interested in though so I enjoy these threads a lot.

My budget for dog food is $5/kg and so far that has worked out quite well (the only thing that I occasionally pay more for is brains but that's a bit of a novelty treat anyway). Most of the stuff I buy is a fair bit less than 5 bucks a kilo anyway (e.g. whole beef and lamb hearts for $3/kg). I buy in bulk and stock up my freezers (got 2 dedicated for dog food) when it's cheap. I also regularly check the meat dept at supermarkets and see if there's any reduced stuff. If so I buy everything I see (most of the time this is what I do to get organs, they tend to sit on the shelves until almost expired and then I go and grab a whole bunch for cheap). I buy pork from Foodland when it's on special, it's always less than $5/kg then (I think $4.75) and I don't mind paying that as the other stuff I feed is still cheaper than that.

If possible, make friends with hunters.. I have the opportunity to get boar and deer for $3/kg and that's pretty great for wild caught stuff. Unfortunately haven't had the chance to actually go and get some yet, but hopefully soon.

The pet food shop around the corner from me is a real gold mine. The shop owner orders in stuff and grinds it at the shop so I have the chance of getting some before it goes through the mincer. The quality is superb, I almost wanted to eat some of the roo myself the first time I got some, it looked that good... :D So if you have any similar shops around it's always worth asking whether you could get something ordered in. Same with butchers, I had no idea I could get pig's heads from there but turns out they can order in a whole bunch of stuff. Generally the butcher can be a little pricier though.

All in all, feeding "proper" raw does require a fair bit of dedication and investing in a good freezer or two is definitely a big plus, but once you've got that sorted it gets pretty easy. Buy when it's cheap and buy lots of it. I'm pretty sure most of the super premium kibble brands cost about the same per kilogram? I believe raw gives the dog so much more than just ideal nutrition and it is most definitely worth every penny I put in. I'm never going back to kibble. :)

Oh, and if I ever get across any whole prey I'll absolutely jump at it! Rabbit or chicken culls, stillborn calves/lambs/goats/piglets etc., so if you know a farmer you could get very lucky!

Crisovar; yes, turkey necks have some meat on them but at the same time the bone percentage is high and I don't like to feed such bone-heavy meals. This is obviously a matter of opinion (like just about everything else when it comes to feeding dogs lol..), but personally I believe the money I'd spend on turkey necks can be spent better.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Hockz

[sheena]

My guys get turkey necks every day, plenty of meat on the ones I buy & they are so good for cleaning their teeth

[cassie]

Thanks Hockz love your work :)

[Crisovar]

I don't look at the balance of ONE meal, I look at balance over time, turkey necks are a great feed for a dog as part of their diet, any edible raw MEATY bones are a great part of a dogs diet. I cannot imagine not including them most days, so many benefits. I have seen some pretty cruddy teeth on raw fed dogs that do not get regular raw meaty bone meals. Of course it is all a matter of opinion but in my experience through feeding dogs large and small for many years it works for my dogs.

[blakkjackal]

I don't look at the balance of ONE meal, I look at balance over time, turkey necks are a great feed for a dog as part of their diet, any edible raw MEATY bones are a great part of a dogs diet. I cannot imagine not including them most days, so many benefits. I have seen some pretty cruddy teeth on raw fed dogs that do not get regular raw meaty bone meals. Of course it is all a matter of opinion but in my experience through feeding dogs large and small for many years it works for my dogs.

I don't look at the balance of one meal either, I look at it over approximately one week. I don't feed more than 10% bone and feeding a turkey neck/any other edible bone almost every day would mean I'd have to pump up his other food intake heaps and that just doesn't work. I feed most of the meals frozen so that it works as a dental cleaner too. Either way I've found that big chunks of (frozen) meat works better as a "toothbrush" than bones as they actually have to sink their teeth in the meat, rip, tear and pull, use all their teeth for the work not just their molars.

This comes down to personal preference, obviously. I choose to spend my money on stuff that I know will satisfy both my dogs nutritional and "recreational" needs and the best thing for that is a big frozen chunk of meat.

My 2-year-old raw fed dog's pearly whites below; he gets a bone maybe every 3-4 days.

/Jeebuz, sorry about the ginormous picture!

Edited July 7, 2013 by Hockz

[LisaCC]

Not criticising, just general interest. Wouldn't frozen food come with the same risks as ice? Bloat.

[Diva]

I don't feed more than 10% bone and feeding a turkey neck/any other edible bone almost every day would mean I'd have to pump up his other food intake heaps and that just doesn't work. I feed most of the meals frozen so that it works as a dental cleaner too. Either way I've found that big chunks of (frozen) meat works better as a "toothbrush" than bones as they actually have to sink their teeth in the meat, rip, tear and pull, use all their teeth for the work not just their molars.

Agree with this, best thing I have found for teeth cleaning is heads, but apart from that big chunks of meat do a fair job. Turkey necks are far too bony for mine to have often, I think they are about 40% bone. Mine get edible bone every third meal or so. Most usually in the form of a whole rabbit or chicken. A whole chicken is about 30% bone, frames and necks of course much more than that.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Diva

[blakkjackal]

Not criticising, just general interest. Wouldn't frozen food come with the same risks as ice? Bloat.

Never had an issue and I feed almost every meal straight out of the freezer. My dog takes a fair while to eat (30+ minutes normally), the food defrosts a bit in the process too and he doesn't get to swallow more than very small bits at a time as it's very hard to tear large chunks out of something frozen solid.

[cassie]

I've never heard of ice causing bloat before?

[minimax]

I've never heard of ice causing bloat before?

It's one of those myths that get around, like a email chain where no one checks their facts before forwarding it.

[LisaCC]

I've never seen it as an email chain We were told by our vets when my old dog started vomiting after chewing on a big chicken stock ice block in summer.