Whining In Class

[DakotaJ]

Meeka and I have been going to obedience training for 8 months now and have progressed up to the fourth level, she does well with all her commands, stays and recalls but she has trouble sitting in line while others are weaving, doing recalls or anything which requires sitting still for extended periods

She shifts around, which is manageable but the other night she started whining, kept it up of and on for almost 15 mins.

I don't know how to handle this. I don't know if she is bored, anxious, in some kind of distress or just attention seeking. And what I can do stop it.

Some background, She is 12 months old, a Golden Retriever and she appears to love going to obedience training. She is calm when we are moving. She is also very food reactive, i.e. once she knows treats are available she hops around, sits sideways, checks my hand constantly and generally cares about nothing but the possibility that treats are available. Therefore I treat her sparingly, I do treat her occasionally in class but not constantly as some others do ( and it works well for them). I am worried that if I treat her when she whines it will encourage her to do it more. She does not whine every class, though it does seem to be when she sits for long periods

Can anyone give me an idea of why she whines, and how to deal with it.

[Nekhbet]

Some background, She is 12 months old, a Golden Retriever and she appears to love going to obedience training. She is calm when we are moving. She is also very food reactive, i.e. once she knows treats are available she hops around, sits sideways, checks my hand constantly and generally cares about nothing but the possibility that treats are available. Therefore I treat her sparingly, I do treat her occasionally in class but not constantly as some others do ( and it works well for them). I am worried that if I treat her when she whines it will encourage her to do it more. She does not whine every class, though it does seem to be when she sits for long periods

Your dog has not learned to focus on you or to sit still. You should not be treating sparingly but when the dog is doing exactly what you want. The dog should be rewarded for focus on your face, sitting stock still and remaining there and rewarded often. You've pulled back the rewards and she's probably a little confused and frustrated hence the whining.

Set the parameters clearly of what gets rewards and baby steps to get there :)

[Kavik]

This is what I do when there are down time periods in classes (I do agility).

I do one of two things

1) I do engagement activities - active fun little games or exercises where we run and interact, some body awareness stuff - I use a high rate of reinforcement for these, use lots of food as my competition dog doesn't tug at training. High food drive is fantastic - I say use it! :)

2) Put my dog in a crate so he can relax and have some down time before our next turn. It is mentally taxing for them to be out the whole time, there is a lot going on. I don't want him to use up all his mental energy being silly and excited just because it is an exciting place. If I am not working him soon, I would rather him relax so that he is ready to concentrate when it is our turn again.

[Weasels]

My kelpies hate standing around too, so boring! :laugh:

Like Kavik I do lots of little tricks for focus, I have a selection of simple ones that are on small body language cues: a hand-lift and point for sit and down, putting my head to the side for lying on their side etc. These are handy if someone is talking, since I don't have to make any noise. Plus moving from heel to front and back again. I taught a 'quiet' cue which works as long as they aren't super aroused or bored.

I also think this is a great game for pushy dogs :) -

Edited July 3, 2013 by TheLBD

[BC Crazy]

Stella has always carried on, whinnes etc. she is very vocal, especially

if there are other dogs around. Sitting still is almost impossible

for her. She gets very frustrated. Sounds like I will have to start

making her settle. I find myself rushing so she doesn't start to get

upset. I'll have to change my thinking a bit I think.

[corvus]

Sounds like Kivi. He gets frustrated. If he's a little aroused and anticipating reinforcement he doesn't have great impulse control and whines or barks. The solution is kind of counter-intuitive. He's got to trust reinforcement will come sooner or later. So I wound the reinforcement rate up and tapered off again more slowly this time. I basically take it to mean I went too fast.

Arguably the problem wouldn't occur at all if I'd put the foundation work in that I did with Erik. E's impulse control was pretty awful as a puppy, and he was so bold it was kind of worrying. I did heaps of doggie zen and off switch games and NILIF. You can get a doggie zen training guide from this site: http://www.sue-eh.ca/

[BC Crazy]

Corvus I can't get the link to work unfortunately. Are there any other sites I can view to get some ideas regarding impulse control exercises.

I think Stella has a very hard time controlling herself & it is a big problem for her. I can see she reaches a point when it is all to much even though

she does try & resist. She whines & cries a lot. Jumps & spins around on lead if there is something that has set her off, eg mower.

So I can relate well with the OP & it is frustrating for both owner & dog. If I can teach Stella some self control I think she wont get nearly as anxious

& vocal. I think I have been doing the wrong thing as I have been working around her so as not to set her off instead of addressing her issues because she gets

so upset/cries/whines I've been doing everything to avoid that.If that makes any sense. I just didn't want her upset. That won't improve her though, will it?

ERRRRRRRR....

Edited July 3, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Nekhbet]

BC it's about engagement. If your dog prefers to be on the move, then move! Even with food. Run backwards, encourage her to follow, reward, then add a quick sit, reward, keep it dynamic. It will expend energy, move at her pace and keep her focus on you. Short bursts then a break, then another burst and a break etc, do a few classes like this and work towards extending her obedience commands. I find the easiest way to do it is to give the dog a quiet 'good girl/boy' while they're doing it and then mark, reward, start again. Keeps their focus and less whining because there's no quiet for them to get frustrated, it's constant feedback and dynamic training.

[Tilly]

Our working dog used to whine when he is on lead but not moving ... in a crate or car he is quiet. We were warned that his line were all vocal dogs.

It was a pain when his handler is hiding and waiting for an person to actually enter the premises (couldn't do anything until they had entered the premises for a break & enter charge) - the dog was warning the potential offenders in his excitement and anticipation of some fun. He now has a tug toy attached to the other end of his lead and he holds this in his mouth - which thankfully keeps him quiet.

[corvus]

That won't improve her though, will it?

ERRRRRRRR....

mmm, probably not. :) Although it might depend on exactly why she's doing it.

I think context and why the dog is carrying on makes a difference, here. If you WANT your dog to be engaged with you, then yeah, move fast and be fun to be with. When I've encountered problems with my dogs it's usually when they are worried I'm NOT going to engage with them, which I'm not, because we're in downtime, or I'm talking to someone, or they are supposed to be in a stay or whatever. IMO, sooner or later the dog will have to sit still QUIETLY and be okay with it and not throw a tanty and so on. It's not unusual for dogs to find this difficult. That's why we have the Relaxation Protocol, which teaches dogs that no matter what is going on around them, they will be reinforced for just staying calm and not doing anything. RP is kind of tedious, but seriously, it is good. RP is here in mp3 format, and I think there are links to it in writing as well: http://championofmyheart.com/relaxation-protocol-mp3-files/ Erik had to do Day 1 five days in a row before he could get through it without getting up and pacing or barking or poking things. He was deeply troubled by doing nothing. Lots of working breeds are like that. We didn't do the whole thing because about 2/3 of the way through Erik got the gist and it became necessary to take it on the road to change the context. I should have kept on with Kivi, though, because Kivi was still showing signs that the increasing difficulty was relevant to him.

Anyway, the other possibility is frustration, which I've already covered, and another possibility is arousal/anxiety. Dogs find it hard to sit still if they are aroused. RP should help with that as well, but if the dog is highly aroused it will probably be an uphill struggle no matter what you try.

And doggie zen is just generally good. It fits nicely into RP and CU and so on. The levels used to be on the web, but Sue Ailsby now has a book out instead, so this was the best I could find aside from her checklist: http://www.brisbeethewhite.com/id37.htm

Obedience classes can be tricky. I think the structure is often terrible. I balance Kivi, so that when he can do it successfully he is put in a stay while things are being explained or other dogs are taking their turns. As the classes progress and he gets restless I do some tricks with him, work on something a bit more engaging, and fewer stays. I think you have to take care of your dogs and make sure they know what they should be doing. Kivi can go sniff if I release him. Otherwise he's doing what I've told him to do. It's not about being regimental or controlling or strict. It's just about setting them up to succeed and making sure they are enjoying themselves. If he's working and it's something he can do successfully, he will be reinforced and he'll enjoy the class. It is hard when you get an instructor that doesn't approve, though.

[BC Crazy]

Nebhket, I will give that a try. I have noticed Stella is a lot more focused on me when I move funnily enough. So it makes perfect sense to move more.

Can't promise I will be able to keep up with her as she is like lightening but I will speed up & backwards is something new I never thought to do.

She is a complex little girl. I often find she stares at me, like right into my eyes & tilts her head like she is trying to "get" what I'm saying or something.

I know that sounds strange but that's one of the many quirks she has. Lets see how we go with this then. Thanks for your help :)

Edited July 4, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Nekhbet]

Nebhket, I will give that a try. I have noticed Stella is a lot more focused on me when I move funnily enough. So it makes perfect sense to move more.

Can't promise I will be able to keep up with her as she is like lightening but I will speed up & backwards is something new I never thought to do.

We do it a lot with the high energy dogs in class and a lot on Malinois. It holds their attention on you, if you look up Michael Ellis puppy stuff on Youtube there's a lot of his videos on engagement. Just have a hand full of treats and keep moving backwards, it encourages following, focus and bonding. Just make sure the dog is looking at your face before rewarding.

[BC Crazy]

I have just started to watch some of his stuff on utube. Very impressive stuff. I really like the way he teaches. Makes style perfect sense to me.

Oh & what I wouldn't give to have my 2 do heel work half as good as what he does with his dog. Makes me salivate :laugh: I'm thinking I would like

to buy his heel work DVD as I'm determine that it would help solve a lot of me issues with both mine actually. They tend to pull on lead, not all the time

but they do on occasion & besides it being bloody annoying I find once they get in front of me I have lost any control I had of them. So that is another

goal of mine & the sooner the better :)

I did some running backwards with Stella this morning & she loved it !!! I was amazed how focused she was on me. She just did simple stuff, a few sits & downs.

Weave between my legs & stuff. While I moved about though it was all eyes on me

Edited July 5, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Nekhbet]

Part of the movement factor is inciting a little prey movement which excites the dog. Food doesn't have to be static, it's more effective with some dogs if you engage them through your own body. It's also teaching them you're part of the reward process, not just the food. Really you're just using the food to bridge the understanding gap between you and the dog and up your reward value to the dog, just handing it out is a bit average and they lose interest quickly.

Saying all that people who wave their hands in their dogs face dont get the same result and frankly it just confuses the dog. You have to move, not be a blowfly :laugh:

Don't bother buying there's enough on Youtube to get you there in Heeling. I have a couple of videos of a pup starting heeling work have at my school on my page I'm going to take some more in the coming weeks :)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/InLine-K9-Dog-Training-and-Behavior-Consultancy/147687365290703

Edited July 5, 2013 by Nekhbet

[BC Crazy]

I must remember not to resemble a blow fly then :laugh: I know I used to be terrible, hands flapping everywhere but I have learnt to control them somewhat, thank goodness.

Thanks for the links Nekhbet. Will watch in interest & see if I can get a handle on it. It certainly is not as easy as it looks. Sonny always wants to turn around in front of me. ERRRR

Stella positions herself well but I think we need to practise more & I have great difficulty training them as she can't bare to be apart from Sonny so I tie her up & work him & vise versa

but she goes ballistic if I take him out of her sight Our neighbours will ring the council without hesitation if I do it too often. I have tried to crate her inside while I work Sonny

but am concerned she will harm herself as she thrashes around. Little B she is...

[Nekhbet]

Stella positions herself well but I think we need to practise more & I have great difficulty training them as she can't bare to be apart from Sonny so I tie her up & work him & vise versa

but she goes ballistic if I take him out of her sight Our neighbours will ring the council without hesitation if I do it too often. I have tried to crate her inside while I work Sonny

but am concerned she will harm herself as she thrashes around. Little B she is...

two words ... e collar :laugh:

[corvus]

Or "mat work". :) Don't need to train them apart or tie one up if they have a semi-decent stationing behaviour. It's dead easy to train and doesn't take long.

[Nekhbet]

Dogs should learn to be separated anyway especially if they're bonded that strongly to one another - thats flashing red light territory that needs to be addressed ASAP.

[BC Crazy]

Corvus, I have done limited mat work with both & that works till I start to move at any pace other than a walk or I go out of sight with Sonny. Stella breaks position then if I don't tie her up.

Nebhket, Sonny is fine & doesn't care if I take Stella away at all. It's Stella she has always been very "needy". It has a constant battle of mine since I have got her to try & separate her to train etc

Will keep up mat work & see how we go. I won't let her antics beat me. I just have to learn how to manage her better I think.

Edited July 5, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Nekhbet]

Will keep up mat work & see how we go. I won't let her antics beat me. I just have to learn how to manage her better I think.

I have a similar problem with two pups in class at the moment but it's a lot more severe - two GSDs unrelated 4 months old, scream the place down and won't concentrate and thats just 10m apart! There has been improvement in a few weeks but its taking very firm guidence from the owners to get them to focus. Just more cut the crap from them we should get there :laugh: