The Scandal Of Marketing Purebred Dogs

[~Anne~]

We have this so far. I think the last one can be said more eloquently.

Quality

Predictability

Rich history

Type specific (not sure if this is translated effectively)

Reliability

Recognised/identified parentage

We have rich history but i was thinking more of the historical reasons for the development of breeds and the interesting ways breeds have been used throughout history.

Edited July 21, 2013 by ~Anne~

[Steve]

Personally I think its covered by predictability - knowing the ancestry and using the information from history increases the ability to predict everything about the dog.

[Steve]

Recognised/identified parentage - birth certificate.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Steve

[RuralPug]

The benefit of a pedigree = known bloodlines.

You can have bad bloodlines as well as good ones, as was Haredown's point. You will need to avoid possible negative spin in your message - so is known bloodlines a good or a bad thing?

For me it is the most important thing, because knowing the bloodline helps me to judge the "product". But is it for everyone? Can the right message make everyone find this desirable?

[Steve]

The benefit of a pedigree = known bloodlines.

You can have bad bloodlines as well as good ones, as was Haredown's point. You will need to avoid possible negative spin in your message - so is known bloodlines a good or a bad thing?

For me it is the most important thing, because knowing the bloodline helps me to judge the "product". But is it for everyone? Can the right message make everyone find this desirable?

Part of it all is identifying the market. That's different for different breeders and different breeds. I prefer to place my beagle puppies in pet homes way over a show home. Therefore most people who will own my beagle puppies are interested in being able to see the puppy's family tree and be provided with a birth certificate but they are not likely to be looking at knowing the bloodline to judge the product, risk factors for breeding it and its chances of winning a championship in the conformation ring. Very few of them care whether the puppy has champion parents or whether there is a long line of champs in the bloodlines. My website focuses on information about how best to manage them as pets and photographs of the dogs I have placed with the families they live with. I sort of mention a bit about the champs Ive bred ,in conformation, obedience and agility and why I breed papered dogs and why the breed standard is important in my selection process but the main thing I show them is the success rate Ive had with making families happy with me and the dogs they have taken.

They do want to know broadly in my Maremma what my dogs bloodlines have done and do and whether Im specialising in working ability or pets. People who are buying dogs to protect stock generally want to know that the parents have been successfully working and they show more interest in that than those who are looking for a Maremma as a pet. Inone of my stud dogs every single dog in his pedigree for 7 generations is a conformation champ but they still worked and I dont ever even mention this about his bloodlines when Im speaking about him. My puppy buyers are much more interested in my record of breeding well tempered healthy dogs and having good relationships with my puppy buyers with very few of them interested in the intricacies of how Ive selected for that in my bloodlines.

Clearly breeders who have a website with a focus on their show dogs or agility champs etc are looking at a different target market than I am.

[mita]

'Pedigree' just means a table of descent. Can be of people .... or just about anything, even cars ... but mostly now attached to purebred dogs.

And it doesn't mean anything about quality of dogs listed in that table. It's just a chart.

It's how a pedigree is used that counts ... & what information exists outside that table about the dogs' characteristics, which can be for good or ill.

However that information is kept... in breeders' heads or in records they keep ... that's the data for making decisions about breeding.

Quality comes from breeders' making best decisions they can about breed characteristics like conformation, temperament & health.

And also from how they interact with their dogs & puppies to provide socialization & environmental experiences. That hardly gets referred to re 'quality' in purebred dogs.

Yet those neural pathways laid down.... especially when young... via learning ... is just as 'physical' as conformation. And hugely related to behaviours of dogs. This is backed by extensive research.... but rarely gets mentioned in accounts of benefits that can be associated with purebred dogs.

Edited July 22, 2013 by mita

[RuralPug]

Quality comes from breeders' making best decisions they can about breed characteristics like conformation, temperament & health.

And also from how they interact with their dogs & puppies to provide socialization & environmental experiences. That hardly gets referred to re 'quality' in purebred dogs.

Yet those neural pathways laid down.... especially when young... via learning ... is just as 'physical' as conformation. And hugely related to behaviours of dogs. This is backed by extensive research.... but rarely gets mentioned in accounts of benefits associated with purebred dogs.

Early socialisation is not necessarily a benefit of purebred dogs per se - it is a benefit of responsible breeding.

The breeding with care and the early socialisation of puppies is a very large part of my personal definition of ethical and responsible.

The remaining parts revolve around efforts to make sure that the puppies you have bred go to suitable homes and you provide those homes with safety back up in some form if the homes become unsuitable later.

[Salukifan]

'Pedigree' just means a table of descent. Can be of people .... or just about anything, even cars ... but mostly now attached to purebred dogs.

And racehorses, and purebred horse, cattle, sheep etc, and cats ..... it is a record of lineage.

Inanimate objects do not have pedigrees, they have provenance.

Teaching the value of a pedigree is all about the other qualities we've listed - without knowledge of descent, all preditcability and inheritance factors go out the window.

[mita]

Quality comes from breeders' making best decisions they can about breed characteristics like conformation, temperament & health.

And also from how they interact with their dogs & puppies to provide socialization & environmental experiences. That hardly gets referred to re 'quality' in purebred dogs.

Yet those neural pathways laid down.... especially when young... via learning ... is just as 'physical' as conformation. And hugely related to behaviours of dogs. This is backed by extensive research.... but rarely gets mentioned in accounts of benefits associated with purebred dogs.

Early socialisation is not necessarily a benefit of purebred dogs per se - it is a benefit of responsible breeding.

The breeding with care and the early socialisation of puppies is a very large part of my personal definition of ethical and responsible.

The remaining parts revolve around efforts to make sure that the puppies you have bred go to suitable homes and you provide those homes with safety back up in some form if the homes become unsuitable later.

My emphasis was deliberately on the behaviour of breeders in making breeding decisions. Breeder behaviour includes interacting with their dogs.... & giving them access to wider environments. Research exists on the extent to which breeders of purebreds tend to do this & what's the outcome for dogs.

There's even interesting research indicating that purebred dogs that have been shown tend to have certain characteristics which go across breeds. That certainly resonates with my practical experience because we've always adopted ex-show dogs. They've shown those very characteristics. So, into the mix of possible benefits when adopting a purebred dog .... & for some lifestyles... goes traits associated with those that have a history of being shown.

I rarely see any mention of research findings about breeder behavours associated with purebred dog breeding (& showing)... & the consequences for the behaviour of dogs ... included in any discussion re possible benefits. Yet it's one of the major reasons why I buy & recommend to others, purebred dogs.... from certain breeders.

Edited July 22, 2013 by mita

[mita]

[

Teaching the value of a pedigree is all about the other qualities we've listed - without knowledge of descent, all preditcability and inheritance factors go out the window.

As i said.... further down.... it's the use to which the pedigree, as a record of descent.... is used in making breeding decisions.

Those decisions rest on information that's not directly written in that chart. Information about health, temperament, conformation characteristics of individual dogs.... which is kept in breeders' heads or in their written records.

Which is why my emphasis is on breeder knowledge & behaviour.... in any education or public relations about purebred dogs & the possible benefits in owning them.

Edited July 22, 2013 by mita

[Salukifan]

[

Teaching the value of a pedigree is all about the other qualities we've listed - without knowledge of descent, all preditcability and inheritance factors go out the window.

As i said.... further down.... it's the use to which the pedigree, as a record of descent.... is used in making breeding decisions.

Those decisions rest on information that's not directly written in that chart. Information about health. temperament, conformation characteristics of individual dogs.... which is kept in breeders' heads or in their written records.

Which is why my emphasis is on breeder knowledge & behaviour.... in any education or public relations about purebred dogs & the possible benefits in owning them.

Except that we're trying to market to people who will probably never make breeding decisions - so the value of the pedigree must be in what pet owners will get from it.

[mita]

[

Teaching the value of a pedigree is all about the other qualities we've listed - without knowledge of descent, all preditcability and inheritance factors go out the window.

As i said.... further down.... it's the use to which the pedigree, as a record of descent.... is used in making breeding decisions.

Those decisions rest on information that's not directly written in that chart. Information about health. temperament, conformation characteristics of individual dogs.... which is kept in breeders' heads or in their written records.

Which is why my emphasis is on breeder knowledge & behaviour.... in any education or public relations about purebred dogs & the possible benefits in owning them.

Except that we're trying to market to people who will probably never make breeding decisions - so the value of the pedigree must be in what pet owners will get from it.

I'm interested in educating consumers about what possible benefits they can get from buying purebred dogs. Pet owners.... as I am.... get value from a pedigree as it's the gateway to finding out what breeders know & do and how that can lead to producing quality.... or less than. And how there's reliable research which backs this.

Edited July 22, 2013 by mita

[Salukifan]

[quote name='Haredown Whippets' timestamp='1374460662' post

I'm interested in educating consumers about what possible benefits they can get from buying purebred dogs. Pet owners.... as I am.... get value from a pedigree as it's the gateway to finding out what breeders know & do and how that can lead to producing quality.... or less than. And how there's reliable research which backs this.

I think your logic is flawed. The pedigree is proof of ancestry. It's not a window onto breeding practices - which is why finding the right pup should be a two step process:

1. Select the breed you're interested in.

2. Find a knowledgeable, responsible breeder.

[mita]

[quote name='Haredown Whippets' timestamp='1374460662' post

I'm interested in educating consumers about what possible benefits they can get from buying purebred dogs. Pet owners.... as I am.... get value from a pedigree as it's the gateway to finding out what breeders know & do and how that can lead to producing quality.... or less than. And how there's reliable research which backs this.

I think your logic is flawed. The pedigree is proof of ancestry. It's not a window onto breeding practices - which is why finding the right pup should be a two step process:

1. Select the breed you're interested in.

2. Find a knowledgeable, responsible breeder.

We are on opposite perspectives. Mine is on educating consumers (as I am) on how to track thro' to possible benefits in buying a purebred dog

1. We need to know the background for knowledge & responsibility of purebred breeders.

2. Pedigrees set out a chart of descent of purebred dogs.... registered with a Kennel Association.

3 Breeders' knowledge about the dogs in that lineage provides data for their making decisions about breeding for temperament/conformation/ health

4 Breeders' interactions with their dogs set down a base for their behavioural learning.

5 When we select a breed, we will want general information on its breed characteristics & history.

6 When selecting a breeder, we will want to ask questions about 5... but most importantly suss out how they've applied 3 & 4.

Point is that the majority of those steps are associated with purebred dogs ... not pet shop dogs, puppy-farmed dogs or backyard bred dogs.

All of which is what I advise fellow pet owners .... & provide word of mouth references to breeders in my selected breed

CHOICE (Australian Consumers Association) has a guide to people buying a puppy/dog. It's towards the above direction ... but could well be expanded & updated.

Edited July 22, 2013 by mita

[corvus]

Hardly anyone looking for a dog knows what to do with a pedigree, and of those that do, I would bet a lot of them just can't be bothered. I certainly can't, and I'm a research fiend. My partner wanted a bulldog a while back. I said fine, but you have to do the research and find some healthy lines. Big surprise, we don't have a bulldog. Whenever anyone says they think they want a particular breed but want x, y and z traits, people here tell them to research their lines, because there's a fair bit of variation within breeds.

[bertie]

We have this so far. I think the last one can be said more eloquently.

Quality

Predictability

Rich history

Type specific (not sure if this is translated effectively)

Reliability

Recognised/identified parentage

We have rich history but i was thinking more of the historical reasons for the development of breeds and the interesting ways breeds have been used throughout history.

Maybe family tree as an alternative? Or something like it? Researching your family's history is a very popular & known thing, even amongst the bogans :laugh: so maybe a word that conjures that up.

Fantastic thread.

[Salukifan]

Hardly anyone looking for a dog knows what to do with a pedigree, and of those that do, I would bet a lot of them just can't be bothered. I certainly can't, and I'm a research fiend. My partner wanted a bulldog a while back. I said fine, but you have to do the research and find some healthy lines. Big surprise, we don't have a bulldog. Whenever anyone says they think they want a particular breed but want x, y and z traits, people here tell them to research their lines, because there's a fair bit of variation within breeds.

To a pet person, first and foremost the pedigree is a guarantee that they are getting what they paid for. That is a purebred pup of identifiable parentage.

Some who chose to buy a pup without papers are not so lucky.

I've seen a few BYb "Whippets" that clearly aren't.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[corvus]

Are you sure that really matters to them? My parents have a dog from a registered breeder that is suspect. The dog's papers were promised, but never seen. They didn't chase it up. I've had people say things to me like "She's a labrador. But we think she's not 100% labrador. Her face is a little longer, like a golden retriever." And I've heard "He's a pomeranian. They both are. They just don't really look like it." I know people who get a random mix and arbitrarily assign it a breed. Unknown parentage doesn't seem to be meaningful to them?

[sandgrubber]

'Pedigree' just means a table of descent. Can be of people .... or just about anything, even cars ... but mostly now attached to purebred dogs.

And it doesn't mean anything about quality of dogs listed in that table. It's just a chart.

It's how a pedigree is used that counts ... & what information exists outside that table about the dogs' characteristics, which can be for good or ill.

However that information is kept... in breeders' heads or in records they keep ... that's the data for making decisions about breeding.

Quality comes from breeders' making best decisions they can about breed characteristics like conformation, temperament & health.

And also from how they interact with their dogs & puppies to provide socialization & environmental experiences. That hardly gets referred to re 'quality' in purebred dogs.

Yet those neural pathways laid down.... especially when young... via learning ... is just as 'physical' as conformation. And hugely related to behaviours of dogs. This is backed by extensive research.... but rarely gets mentioned in accounts of benefits that can be associated with purebred dogs.

The pedigree has potential, but as used, it hides as much as it reveals. How I wish pedigrees were kept like human family trees, with records of year of birth and death. I would love to be able to select for longevity! The easiest thing to pick up from a pedigree, how many titles are behind a dog, is hardly definitive. It does tell whether the owners of a dog's ancestors entered their dogs in dog shows, and it will let you select for dogs that did well in both bench and field. It tells you nothing of a fantastic, healthy dog that was never entered in a show. It lets you see whether there has been line breeding or inbreeding in the last three to five generations. But it's hard work to extend that back to eight to 12 generations as required to get an accurate read on COI. If you want to find out whether the lines are prone to early onset cancer, epilepsy, behavioural problems, or other grave, potentially genetic faults, forget it.

Btw, there are dogs that don't have the right look for the breed whose pedigrees are faultless. If you breed two solid colored Labradors who are heterozygous at the K locus, you can expect that around 1/4 of the pups will come out with mismarks, eg., some brindling or black and tan looks. The pedigree does not guarantee against recessive traits that occasionally get expressed through the lottery of genetic mixing.

Edited July 22, 2013 by sandgrubber

[sandgrubber]

I rarely see any mention of research findings about breeder behavours associated with purebred dog breeding (& showing)... & the consequences for the behaviour of dogs ... included in any discussion re possible benefits. Yet it's one of the major reasons why I buy & recommend to others, purebred dogs.... from certain breeders.

Referemces, please.

The only such research I know of is K. Svartberg's 2005 review of temperament study of 13000+ pedigree dogs whose behavior was assessed by the Swedish Kennel Club. (Breed-typical behaviour in dogs—Historical remnants or recent constructs? Applied Animal Behaviour Science 96 (2006) 293–313). Svartberg tabulated four traits, called "playfulness, curiosity/fearlessness, sociability and aggressiveness". (I put this in quotes because I have quibbles with how the behavioral assessment was done. It looks like a dog that raises its hackles but does not attack will get classed as aggressive. ) Svartberg separated show dogs from working dogs (including dogs entered in any sort of performance trial). He concluded that: "selection for dog show use is positively correlated with social and non-social fearfulness, and negatively with playfulness, curiosity in potentially threatening situations and aggressiveness,whereas selection for Working dog use is positively correlated with playfulness and aggressiveness.

Furthermore, correlation analyses show that popular breeds have higher sociability and playfulness scores than less popular breeds, suggesting that a positive attitude towards strangers is an important characteristic of a functional pet dog and desirable by dog owners. This indicates that selectiontowards use in dog shows may be in conflict with pet dog selection."

I don't have the link handy, but you can easily find the full paper online by googling the author's name plus "curiosity/fearlessness".

edited to correct errors introduced by cut and paste

Edited July 22, 2013 by sandgrubber