Food For Giant Breeds

[raineth]

For what its worth...

The Prey Model Raw Diet is not rocket science, you need to feed around 80% Meat (muscle), 10% Uncooked bones, 5% Liver and 5% Organs (non-liver) to ensure your dog gets all of the nutrients needed. You don't need to be exact but try to ensure that the ratios are roughly followed over a period of a week. If your dog is working hard then you need to ensure that there is plenty of fat in the meat you feed. After a slight window of normal adjustment you can modify the bone content, ie if stools are too loose add a bit more bone , if too hard, then use a bit less.

Chicken is probably the best meat to start with.

If you can only get your dog to eat chicken or roo mince then the PMRD is probably not going to be suitable as variety of meats is recommended to ensure the diet is balanced. But this will be totally fine as an occasional meal.

Don't feed kibble and meat in the same meal as they will be digested at different rates. Kibble for brekky and meat for dinner or vice versa would be okay.

All meat should be frozen for a few days to ensure that any nasties are killed off.

Having said that, I don't have experience with giant breeds, I agree that the breeder will be able to offer good advice on what to feed, it would be hard to quantify that the advice is the best possible though. Not all breeders have an in depth knowledge of diets and this is also true of many vets.

However, I do think it is wise to follow the breeder's advice for the transition period when the puppy comes to its new home to minimise physical and emotional stress.

If going kibble, then try and find one with the largest volume of meat content and the lowest amount of fillers like cornmeal.

I would also recommend plenty of external and specific breed research on diets for your new dog. A dedicated breed specific forum will likely have hundreds of posts that will answer exactly what you are asking and will draw from thousands of enthusiasts and experts. I would almost be prepared to bet a weeks wages that Royal Canin, Euk and Hills don't rate highly :)

My best recommendation is not to take a single piece of advice (such as this post I am typing) as the way you "must do it". Research the various diets, foods and their pro's and con's and make a decision. A breeder may recommend a particular food based on familiarity, ease of use, cost or a host of other reasons. The breeder recommended food/diet may be the best, based on a certain set of criteria, but there may be better options if you are prepared to do your research.

Yonjuro you are obviously very well meaning and you have obviously spent a good deal of time on your post. Growing giant breed puppies is not like growing other puppies; they do have specific requirements. You have one chance to get it right and if you don't get it right things can be disastrous. You may be interested to google Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy for example, or OCD and Panosteitis. It is more indepth than feeding the correct amount of bone, muscle meat and offal, calcium:phosphorous is critical.

I know for Great Danes the Royal Canin is considered by many a good choice.

As such I would recommend the OP mainly question the breeder as to what to feed the pup. The breeder should be able to explain why the food they recommend is ideal for the puppy and you would expect that they've successfully raised puppies on that food before.

[Yonjuro]

@haredown Whippets

...as I said to the OP, do your research, don't take any individual post as having all the answers including (especially) my own.

Where have I suggested that PMR is suitable for all size and breeds of dogs? I have also stated it is wise to follow the breeder's recommendation in the beginning.

As for the specifics of PMR, look it up yourself, there is plenty of information readily available on the net - in easily digested pieces :)

The purpose of my post was to encourage questioning and research. Unlike some, I have no interest in pressing my points and views or arguing.

[Yonjuro]

here is a FAQ on Raw

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

[Yonjuro]

For what its worth...

The Prey Model Raw Diet is not rocket science, you need to feed around 80% Meat (muscle), 10% Uncooked bones, 5% Liver and 5% Organs (non-liver) to ensure your dog gets all of the nutrients needed. You don't need to be exact but try to ensure that the ratios are roughly followed over a period of a week. If your dog is working hard then you need to ensure that there is plenty of fat in the meat you feed. After a slight window of normal adjustment you can modify the bone content, ie if stools are too loose add a bit more bone , if too hard, then use a bit less.

Chicken is probably the best meat to start with.

If you can only get your dog to eat chicken or roo mince then the PMRD is probably not going to be suitable as variety of meats is recommended to ensure the diet is balanced. But this will be totally fine as an occasional meal.

Don't feed kibble and meat in the same meal as they will be digested at different rates. Kibble for brekky and meat for dinner or vice versa would be okay.

All meat should be frozen for a few days to ensure that any nasties are killed off.

Having said that, I don't have experience with giant breeds, I agree that the breeder will be able to offer good advice on what to feed, it would be hard to quantify that the advice is the best possible though. Not all breeders have an in depth knowledge of diets and this is also true of many vets.

However, I do think it is wise to follow the breeder's advice for the transition period when the puppy comes to its new home to minimise physical and emotional stress.

If going kibble, then try and find one with the largest volume of meat content and the lowest amount of fillers like cornmeal.

I would also recommend plenty of external and specific breed research on diets for your new dog. A dedicated breed specific forum will likely have hundreds of posts that will answer exactly what you are asking and will draw from thousands of enthusiasts and experts. I would almost be prepared to bet a weeks wages that Royal Canin, Euk and Hills don't rate highly :)

My best recommendation is not to take a single piece of advice (such as this post I am typing) as the way you "must do it". Research the various diets, foods and their pro's and con's and make a decision. A breeder may recommend a particular food based on familiarity, ease of use, cost or a host of other reasons. The breeder recommended food/diet may be the best, based on a certain set of criteria, but there may be better options if you are prepared to do your research.

Yonjuro you are obviously very well meaning and you have obviously spent a good deal of time on your post. Growing giant breed puppies is not like growing other puppies; they do have specific requirements. You have one chance to get it right and if you don't get it right things can be disastrous. You may be interested to google Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy for example, or OCD and Panosteitis. It is more indepth than feeding the correct amount of bone, muscle meat and offal, calcium:phosphorous is critical.

I know for Great Danes the Royal Canin is considered by many a good choice.

As such I would recommend the OP mainly question the breeder as to what to feed the pup. The breeder should be able to explain why the food they recommend is ideal for the puppy and you would expect that they've successfully raised puppies on that food before.

Thanks Raineth,

What you say makes perfect sense to me. As I said, I don't have experience with Giant breeds and will defer to those with more relevant experience. I will admit I am surprised that RC is considered as a good choice, but am happy to concede that it is good and recommended for these breeds.

Thank you, I appreciate your thoughtful response :)

[Salukifan]

@haredown Whippets

...as I said to the OP, do your research, don't take any individual post as having all the answers including (especially) my own.

Where have I suggested that PMR is suitable for all size and breeds of dogs? I have also stated it is wise to follow the breeder's recommendation in the beginning.

As for the specifics of PMR, look it up yourself, there is plenty of information readily available on the net - in easily digested pieces :)

The purpose of my post was to encourage questioning and research. Unlike some, I have no interest in pressing my points and views or arguing.

I try to resist picking apart posts but you don't have to stretch your imagination to infer it from this:

The Prey Model Raw Diet is not rocket science, you need to feed around 80% Meat (muscle), 10% Uncooked bones, 5% Liver and 5% Organs (non-liver) ]to ensure your dog gets all of the nutrients needed. You don't need to be exact but try to ensure that the ratios are roughly followed over a period of a week. If your dog is working hard then you need to ensure that there is plenty of fat in the meat you feed. After a slight window of normal adjustment you can modify the bone content, ie if stools are too loose add a bit more bone , if too hard, then use a bit less.

My concern with what you are saying that there is a risk that an authoritative statement like that will see people take you at your word. The qualifiers that follow don't always sink in.

And its happened here before.

There are a lot of half arsed diets out there that people consider "natural" or "raw", including strange cooked concoctions of meat, vegetables and pasta that the chef considers "balanced". Feed that to any pup and you'll get growth issues.

Yonjuro:

The purpose of my post was to encourage questioning and research. Unlike some, I have no interest in pressing my points and views or arguing.

By "some" you mean me of course. Did you miss this in my post?

You CAN raise giant breed pups on commerical or raw diets.

Is that me pressing my point?

But I see you've moved on...

Edited July 2, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Yonjuro]

sigh... Haredown, did you miss the parts where I recommend the OP doing more research? Which part of "doing research" do you not understand?

I have merely pointed out my perspective based on my limited knowledge and experience. There is a misconception that PMR is complicated, this is not normally the case. However, I have conceded numerous times that I don't have experience with giant breeds and their special dietary requirements.

[minimax]

sigh... Haredown, did you miss the parts where I recommend the OP doing more research? Which part of "doing research" do you not understand?

I have merely pointed out my perspective based on my limited knowledge and experience. There is a misconception that PMR is complicated, this is not normally the case. However, I have conceded numerous times that I don't have experience with giant breeds and their special dietary requirements.

The OP asked for giant breed advice, so maybe only giving relevant advice would be good to save them any confusion?

Edited July 2, 2013 by minimax

[Diva]

I have merely pointed out my perspective based on my limited knowledge and experience. There is a misconception that PMR is complicated, this is not normally the case. However, I have conceded numerous times that I don't have experience with giant breeds and their special dietary requirements.

The OP asked for giant breed advice, so maybe only giving relevant advice would be good to save them any confusion?

I agree. There are many deeply held opinons on canine diets. But in this matter, the sound growth of a precious Mastiff puppy, the opinions of those who have little relevant experience are more likely to be dangerous than useful.

The Dane site HW posted looks comprehensive, and RC giant breed puppy kibble was one of those recommended there. If the OP did want to go raw, there is a DOLer who raises her giant breed puppies that way who has the experience to advise. But for a novice owner of such a breed, a recommended kibble such as RC is likely to be lower risk and easier. It is heart breaking to see a giant breed pup with the orthopedic problems that arise from an ill-advised diet.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Diva

[Salukifan]

I agree. There are many deeply held opinons on canine diets. But in this matter, the sound growth of a precious Mastiff puppy, the opinions of those who have little relevant experience are more likely to be dangerous than useful.

The Dane site HW posted looks comprehensive, and RC giant breed puppy kibble was one of those recommended there. If the OP did want to go raw, there is a DOLer who raises her giant breed puppies that way who has the experience to advise. But for a novice owner of such a breed, a recommended kibble such as RC is likely to be lower risk and easier. It is heart breaking to see a giant breed pup with the orthopedic problems that arise from an ill-advised diet.

And a lot of passion and division on the subject.

All I can say on the issue is "test every assertion". There are myths and mythology about canine diets and bugger all research to support some claims made - on both sides of the commercial vs 'natural' diet argument.

[KJJ]

And a lot of passion and division on the subject.

All I can say on the issue is "test every assertion". There are myths and mythology about canine diets and bugger all research to support some claims made - on both sides of the commercial vs 'natural' diet argument.

totally agree - I was looking into switching to raw and found that there was a relative scarcity of independent rigorous research for either side, in the end I ended up feeding raw anyway and deciding to use my own judgement about the condition of my animals (in part because I could never find an adequate explanation of how - if specific manufactured diets were so necessary - did anyone manage to raise healthy pups (giant breed or otherwise) before the advent of kibble?)

[Diva]

My breed, not quite giant on weight but probably so on height, seems to have been raised on gruels of cooked grains, including wheat, and boiled meat. Certainly not grain free in any sense, if the written records from centuries past are correct.

[Salukifan]

totally agree - I was looking into switching to raw and found that there was a relative scarcity of independent rigorous research for either side, in the end I ended up feeding raw anyway and deciding to use my own judgement about the condition of my animals (in part because I could never find an adequate explanation of how - if specific manufactured diets were so necessary - did anyone manage to raise healthy pups (giant breed or otherwise) before the advent of kibble?)

My guess is a lot of the time, dogs got what we didn't want or need.

But it seems that historically, cereal (often bread) has formed part of the domestic dog's diet ever since we've been harvesting it.

Given that dogs and horses were often housed and worked in close proximity, its not surprising that many dogs got what horses got to some degree, with meat added.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[KJJ]

totally agree - I was looking into switching to raw and found that there was a relative scarcity of independent rigorous research for either side, in the end I ended up feeding raw anyway and deciding to use my own judgement about the condition of my animals (in part because I could never find an adequate explanation of how - if specific manufactured diets were so necessary - did anyone manage to raise healthy pups (giant breed or otherwise) before the advent of kibble?)

My guess is a lot of the time, dogs got what we didn't want or need.

But it seems that historically, cereal (often bread) has formed part of the domestic dog's diet ever since we've been harvesting it.

Given that dogs and horses were often housed and worked in close proximity, its not surprising that many dogs got what horses got to some degree, with meat added.

I am inclined to agree, dogs are not obligate carnivores and are known to have far better ability to utilise carbohydrates than wolves (I still am not convinced that processed manufactured kibble is the answer though).

Anyhow - apologies for straying a bit off topic

[RiverStar-Aura]

By telling a new dog to research raw feeding gets confusing. There are SO MANY conflicting ideas that it does get very confusing. I found the more I read up, the more confused I got so I gave up.

Looking around, the majority of dogs in Australia are most likely fed commercial foods and do just fine. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with raw but for those who just 'don't get it' like myself, kibble is a good option. At least I'm sure my dog is getting all the nutrients he needs without having to worry if I've added enough meat/bone/offal/vegetable etc.

[Danois]

Love to know how a raw feeder gets the calcium:phosphorous ratio needed for a growing giant breed right! It is not all about protein: fat.

[KJJ]

Love to know how a raw feeder gets the calcium:phosphorous ratio needed for a growing giant breed right! It is not all about protein: fat.

I am curious to know how breeders got the ratios right prior to the advent of commercial food? Giant breeds like Great Danes have been around for many centuries and commercial dog food for less than two (and that was by no means a balanced product). Please note - I am genuinely curious to hear peoples opinions, I am not trying to suggest one way of feeding is better than another.

[Salukifan]

Love to know how a raw feeder gets the calcium:phosphorous ratio needed for a growing giant breed right! It is not all about protein: fat.

I am curious to know how breeders got the ratios right prior to the advent of commercial food? Giant breeds like Great Danes have been around for many centuries and commercial dog food for less than two (and that was by no means a balanced product). Please note - I am genuinely curious to hear peoples opinions, I am not trying to suggest one way of feeding is better than another.

Who's to say they always did? I was just reading an article that talks about canine bones dating from Tudor times. There is evidence to suggest that some of the dogs whose bones were discovered suffered from rickets - a classic disease that can be caused by a calcium/phosphorus imbalance.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[KJJ]

Who's to say they always did? I was just reading an article that talks about canine bones dating from Tudor times. There is evidence to suggest that some of the dogs whose bones were discovered suffered from rickets - a classic disease that can be caused by a calcium/phosphorus imbalance.

even without mention of an article mention such issues I would have suspected that was the case, however a reasonable percentage of owners / breeders must have managed to rear giant breeds on whatever they deemed an appropriate diet, or maybe the difference is that breeders were more inclined to cull pups or dogs that had 'issues' back then?

[Salukifan]

Who's to say they always did? I was just reading an article that talks about canine bones dating from Tudor times. There is evidence to suggest that some of the dogs whose bones were discovered suffered from rickets - a classic disease that can be caused by a calcium/phosphorus imbalance.

even without mention of an article mention such issues I would have suspected that was the case, however a reasonable percentage of owners / breeders must have managed to rear giant breeds on whatever they deemed an appropriate diet, or maybe the difference is that breeders were more inclined to cull pups or dogs that had 'issues' back then?

Most giant breeds were probably kept by people who could give them at least a proportion of game or meat on the bone. The giants tended to be hunters or protectors of estates or livestock. They certainly weren't an "everyman's breed".

And yes, culling and higher pup mortality were probably features of dog raising

Edited July 3, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Yonjuro]

Love to know how a raw feeder gets the calcium:phosphorous ratio needed for a growing giant breed right! It is not all about protein: fat.

I don't know of this breeders reputation but their name comes up positively in my limited research - they are breeders of Danes and Mastiffs and recommend RAW. They have a forum so maybe they can answer your questions.

http://eyotadanesandmastiffs.webs.com/rawdietfaq.htm