New Uk Laws Prosecting Dog Owners If They Scare Children

[BlackJaq]

I think the first step to improving community safety would be to enforce leash and containment laws. Micro chip laws also come to mind, so the owner of a loose or offending dog can be found and punished appropriately.

Next would have to be bite prevention education, especially in kindies, schools and for the parents, too (maybe at a parent meet or something before a new school year commences?)

I think just these handful of things would make more of a difference than pretty much any new law or whatever that they can come up with.

[Christina]

I think that telling children they are illegally trespassing & breaking the law & will be punished if they go into anyones back yard is a good way to start.

While entry to a front door should be clear of dogs & safe people should be allowed the privacy of their own back yard & if it includes containing a dog in there, that can not escape, that is their right. It is their property & no one should be intruding uninvited.

If they are they should have to accept the consequences.

It may be a hard lesson for a child to learn that if you go in uninvited the dog will scare you but it needs to be learned. Then maybe they would keep out of where they are not supposed to be.

When I was growing up going into anyones back yard without asking may have resulted in a clip around the ear from the owner too. We tended to keep out.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Christina

[sandgrubber]

I think the first step to improving community safety would be to enforce leash and containment laws. Micro chip laws also come to mind, so the owner of a loose or offending dog can be found and punished appropriately.

Next would have to be bite prevention education, especially in kindies, schools and for the parents, too (maybe at a parent meet or something before a new school year commences?)

I think just these handful of things would make more of a difference than pretty much any new law or whatever that they can come up with.

From what I have read, none of the measures you have described would have prevented the death of Ayen Chol . . . the tragic event that initiated the insipid looks based-dangerous laws in Victoria. Education of kiddies will help them avoid doing something stupid that sets off a dog attack from a somewhat-controlled dog. Most dog bites occur in the home, and most dogs that bite are not particularly dangerous. Learning to ask before patting the dog, and learning to recognize warning signs will not prepare a child to deal with a dog who is loose and truly dangerous. Leash and containment laws are fine, but accidents will always happen, and there will always be places where dickheads abound and enforcement is weak.

As I read the news story, the reporter is making it sound scary to sell papers. I doubt laws that persecute owners if their dogs scare easy-to-scare children would be passed in many jurisdictions in the UK, the US, or Australia. The legislation seems to be looking for a way to target people whose dogs act like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park . . . and, like the velociraptors, are kept contained until one day when they get out . . . and cannot be trusted if someone goes over the fence. Dogs that don't just scare the kids, but also give the parents nightmares. If such dogs are kept in densely populated areas, they require fencing that can't be climbed --by kids or dogs as well as secure, locked gates.

.

[BlackJaq]

The dog that killed Ayen Chol appears to have been living chained either in the backyard or inside the garage, on concrete and there was no gate between the garage (which had no door separating it from the back yard) and the street. It appears the dog got off the chain and the garage door was open, allowing it on the street. I hardly call that safe containment...

I do believe that living on a chain (and permanently on concrete without bedding, as is evidenced by the ulcerated sores that were found on the dog) can make a dog more likely to do these kind of things upon uncontrolled release, so maybe that should be addressed by legislation. Life on a chain for a dog who is not regularly taken off and exercised/stimulated is no life anyway, in my personal opinion.

ETA: I know these details because I read the results of the royal inquest, which was a joke btw. The conclusion was that the dog attacked because it was a pitbull, totally ignoring all of the other factors. An internal autopsy was not done, only visual external inspection. No live temp evaluation or anything, no assessment of any factors, except the dog's breed....... Which was testified to by the owner and the dog's vet, it obviously had no papers or anything.

Edited June 29, 2013 by BlackJaq

[sandgrubber]

1372466288[/url]' post='6238946']

The dog that killed Ayen Chol appears to have been living chained either in the backyard or inside the garage, on concrete and there was no gate between the garage (which had no door separating it from the back yard) and the street. It appears the dog got off the chain and the garage door was open, allowing it on the street. I hardly call that safe containment...

I hate chaining. The only study I can find comparing chaining to penning found pens were no better for the dog's welfare. See http://www.naiaonline.org/uploads/WhitePapers/Cornell_study_on_tethering_and_pen.pdf. I'd be interested to see any objective evidence that chaining makes dogs vicious.

Dogs vary enormously in their needs for confinement and their talents at escaping. Chronic escapists are routinely kept in runs with fencing over the top and concrete below (to prevent digging out). I would hate to see people with friendly, harmless dogs with no ability to climb fences held to the same standard of fencing as people with dogs that are HA / DA and good climbers. Do you want someone policing to ensure that you don't keep your dogs in the garage, on concrete? Do you want someone inspecting the way your back yard is connected to the garage? Or a gate between the garage and the street. Being housed in a secure back yard and garaged when weather was bad, or at night, would probably pass most tests used for secure fencing.Much better to worry about confinement for dogs who are truly scary, and let confinement rules be lax for most.

Edited June 29, 2013 by sandgrubber

[BlackJaq]

Mmm I would prefer if every dog was safely contained regardless? And some bedding would be nice?

I cannot believe that chaining and penning have the same impact on dogs but obviously have no study handy to prove one way or another. Maybe Corvus would know.

Either way, the dog played nicely with other people in the same street before killing that girl inside her home so you would think they would like to know why it played nicely with one set of people and then killed a girl, seemingly unprovoked, after following members of her family inside a house, which seems a bit unusual?

[melzawelza]

Either way, the dog played nicely with other people in the same street before killing that girl inside her home so you would think they would like to know why it played nicely with one set of people and then killed a girl, seemingly unprovoked, after following members of her family inside a house, which seems a bit unusual?

The coroner's attitude seemed to be that the dog was a pit bull (at 40kg mind you), therefore it's totally normal for pit bulls to be happy friendly dogs one minute and kill children the next.

The idiocy in that coroner's report was mind numbing and made me so angry for Ayen Chol and her family that the TRUE reasons into why this tragedy happened were completely brushed aside. Criminal.

[BlackJaq]

Either way, the dog played nicely with other people in the same street before killing that girl inside her home so you would think they would like to know why it played nicely with one set of people and then killed a girl, seemingly unprovoked, after following members of her family inside a house, which seems a bit unusual?

The coroner's attitude seemed to be that the dog was a pit bull (at 40kg mind you), therefore it's totally normal for pit bulls to be happy friendly dogs one minute and kill children the next.

The idiocy in that coroner's report was mind numbing and made me so angry for Ayen Chol and her family that the TRUE reasons into why this tragedy happened were completely brushed aside. Criminal.

Yes. Obviously her family may or may not know that it was rubbish, I don't know them, but if it was my child I would have sued over this incompetence. When the inquest was first announced I had the hide to suggest (on DOL) that it would be pinned on the breed anyway, so they might as well save the tax dollars and do something useful with them and I was shouted down angrily.

Then, lo and behold, my prediction came true and I bet everyone was amazed at my ability to predict the future ;)

Reading the report made me wonder if the coroner is in some way mentally retarded or something, actually. She specifically did NOT have an internal autopsy done.. Why, I wonder? Did she maybe worry that further health issues may be found that show that the dog had a less than stellar owner, rather than being born a killing machine?

Who knows, I like to think she is just stupid instead of malicious....

Edited June 29, 2013 by BlackJaq

[darlingdog]

I have my 2 acre property fully fenced with 6ft solid timber fences. The neighbours kids on more than one occasion climbed that fence to retrieve their ball in spite of the fact I have 4 large dogs in my yard and in spite of the fact that each time they did it I happened to be home and gave them a good yelling at. I called my local ranger to ask where I stood if they were bitten...( unlikely but possible as all dogs have the capacity) only to be told my dogs would be in the wrong. WTF !!!!!!! but they are the rules like them or not. Happily they seem to have got the message after I turned the hot wire on which runs on the inside of my fence :laugh:

[Dame Aussie]

I'm so sick of laws that have to be made because some people can't raise their kids properly.

A child has no right to be in any garden other than its own. Is that really so hard to understand?!

[tdierikx]

I'm so sick of laws that have to be made because some people can't raise their kids properly.

A child has no right to be in any garden other than its own. Is that really so hard to understand?!

Ditto!

T.

[BlackJaq]

Love hotwire, kept people away from my horse when we were still living in town, too!

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

We certainly want to deal with the issue of the postman or the political canvasser who gets bitten by a dog out in the yard or garden, where they have perfectly legitimate business.

There's these new inventions called mailboxes that were invented not so long ago... and who surveys door to door in the age of the internet?

[RiverStar-Aura]

Dog legislation is difficult to write well. Unfortunately, we only know which dogs are REALLY REALLY dangerous after they maim or kill someone.

The law in discussion has not been enacted yet, and is likely to be revised. Hopefully it will be judicially enforced in whatever form it takes.

I do think societies need some way to give notice to people that keeping a 'junk yard' dog in the front yard is asking for trouble. I'd much rather see menacing dogs get reported and owners warned, reprimanded, fined, etc. than to have 100% of a dog breed banned because a small minority are truly dangerous.

The article says "Speaking to the Commons last month Mr Heath added: ‘It is different for a garden, or sometimes even a shed. A child going to pick up a football that has been kicked into a garden should not be set upon by a dangerous dog.

‘They may be an intruder, but they are nevertheless not a burglar or anyone with malicious intent. A public–interest test must be satisfied before a prosecution can be brought. I hope that the guidance to the prosecuting authority will make that distinction clear,' The Daily Telegraph reported.

With clear guidance to the prosecuting authority, I think such a law could be a big improvement over the Victorian approach to dangerous dogs.

I'd just like to address the bolded part above. Just how do they expect a dog to know the difference between a child trespassing to retrieve a ball and a burglar or someone of 'malicious intent'? I'm sure all dogs couldn't make the distinction -- act differently yes, but not know the intent of the trespasser. Are they expecting dogs to sit a course on human profiling now?

[OSoSwift]

If my kids climbed into someone yatd and got frightened by the dog they would get their backsides paddled for entering someone elses property without permission!

[sandgrubber]

Dog legislation is difficult to write well. Unfortunately, we only know which dogs are REALLY REALLY dangerous after they maim or kill someone.

The law in discussion has not been enacted yet, and is likely to be revised. Hopefully it will be judicially enforced in whatever form it takes.

I do think societies need some way to give notice to people that keeping a 'junk yard' dog in the front yard is asking for trouble. I'd much rather see menacing dogs get reported and owners warned, reprimanded, fined, etc. than to have 100% of a dog breed banned because a small minority are truly dangerous.

The article says "Speaking to the Commons last month Mr Heath added: 'It is different for a garden, or sometimes even a shed. A child going to pick up a football that has been kicked into a garden should not be set upon by a dangerous dog.

'They may be an intruder, but they are nevertheless not a burglar or anyone with malicious intent. A public–interest test must be satisfied before a prosecution can be brought. I hope that the guidance to the prosecuting authority will make that distinction clear,' The Daily Telegraph reported.

With clear guidance to the prosecuting authority, I think such a law could be a big improvement over the Victorian approach to dangerous dogs.

I'd just like to address the bolded part above. Just how do they expect a dog to know the difference between a child trespassing to retrieve a ball and a burglar or someone of 'malicious intent'? I'm sure all dogs couldn't make the distinction -- act differently yes, but not know the intent of the trespasser. Are they expecting dogs to sit a course on human profiling now?

They do not expect a dog to recognize malicious intent. Nor do they expect kids to have good judgement. They were hoping that whoever frames the law in its final form will allow the judge or some other authority to consider the public interest. That is, it is in the public interest to scare off the bad guys. It is not in the public interest to have dogs put their teeth into local kids being naughty.

Did you never trespass when you were a kid?

[BlackJaq]

I did and I got bit (by a SWF btw). That's just how it goes eh

Edited July 2, 2013 by BlackJaq

[tdierikx]

What is wrong with going to the front door, knocking on it, and asking politely if you can have your ball back please?

Seriously - what is society coming to when we don't even have the right of privacy in our own yards? I don't want ANY uninvited "guests" in my back yard thanks - kids or burglars, both are NOT welcome unless invited in by ME... well... not the burglars... *grin*

T.

[Dame Aussie]

I never trespassed as a kid! Would always knock on the front food if I needed a ball or something back.

[Nushie]

We had a few incidents about 10 years ago where the neighbours kids would go through our side gate to get their lost ball etc. We had a dally and a foxie at the time, both ignored the kids as they pushed past them out onto the street where they would spend the day until we got home. We had no idea what was happening and then we saw them one day. The kids would open the gate and let the dogs out get their ball and then go home. When we yelled at them, they said that they always left the gate open so that the dogs could go back. Great help!

So from then on, no matter how many times we yelled at them to not go into the backyard they still would, but instead they climbed the gate.

I think parents should be responsible and teach their kids not to go into peoples yards. As a kid i would NEVER go into someones yard, if i wanted it back i would knock on the door, but generally as a shy kid i just left it never to be seen again :)