Inexcusable Negligence

[j]

There is good reason the other local vets are not remotely in support here. This is not a one off example of incompetence or negligence here.

Why don't you tell us then what other negligence and incompetence cases Jan has against her, has she been charged, has she been fined, has she gone to jail for these incidences, if you can't openly tell us all then I suggest you not say anymore about it.

Maree

CPR

The matter below, while not actually the case that is being referred to by many in this thread, is in relation to what everyone is alluding, and tells what those charges were. This is a Supreme court judgement from 1999, in relation to the matter that Jan went to hearing for. Unfortunately, I can't link you to the results of that case, because not all magistrates court decisions get put on the webpage. I have cut and paste a few relevant bits from this decision (which is in relation to giving evidence at the hearing), so it is clear what the charges were and what the hearing was in relation to. So yes, she was charged. Yes, the matter went to hearing. Yes, offences were proved. But I can't tell you exactly what the outcome was, because I can't link to the sentencing. Nor was the Canberra Times digitised then, and Trove hasn't made it that far yet with the digitising of the Canberra Times. However, the sentencing impacted on her ability to prescribe/possess scheduled drugs.

http://www.courts.act.gov.au/resources/attachments/Spate_v_Doogan_14_July_1999.pdf

"...The applicant ("the defendant") is a person against whom eight informations have been laid in the Magistrates Court by the second respondent ("the informant"). The defendant has been charged with seven offences under the Drugs ofDependence Act 1989 and one offence under the Firearms Act 1996. The informations are fixed for hearing on 9 and 10 August 1999..."

"...I was informed that one of the charges under the Drugs ofDependence Act related to the alleged supply of pethidine. This is an indictable offence, but I was told that, on account of the alleged quantity, it may be dealt with summarily. The defendant is a veterinary surgeon..."

"...In the present case at least one of the charges is extremely serious from any point of view. All of the charges may have a grave impact on the defendant's ability to practise her profession..."

ETA - this is a publicly available document, which is available to anyone who cares to enter the information into the search function on the Supreme court webpage.

Edited June 23, 2013 by j

[Xyz]

So true. Still not able to prescribe/use S8 drugs, surgical license revoked... What next.

[Dame Aussie]

Wouldn't the vet have lost her license if she was so dangerous?

[Guest Wildthing]

For those of you who have no idea as to why the charges were laid, I would suggest you not jump to conclusions. Jan had a daughter who was addicted to illegal drugs. There were extenuating circumstances as Jan thought she was helping her daughter - daughter had threatened to commit suicide if her mother did not provide the pethidine, among other things. Jan did what she thought was best at the time - supply the drug. After all it was her daughter, not just somebody off the street that she did not know. 1999 is a long time ago and Jan has learnt from that experience, as most mothers would. Whilst I am not privy to all the facts involved, I expect most parents would try to do the best for their children, even if it was not a good decision in hind sight. Every human being has limitations and makes mistakes throughout their lives. Jan's mistakes are different from some people's, and I am sure she has paid a heavy price as well. I remember the case, but I do not remember the results. Quite frankly, it is not important to me as it had absolutely nothing to do with her profession as a vet. I hope this clears a few facts up and does away with the innuendo that has been going on through out this thread.

No one has the full facts on what occurred between Jan the client regarding the cat and it's treatment. Until you have all the facts, you should not jump to conclusions.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Wildthing

[Dame Aussie]

Thanks for the clarification wildthing.

[persephone]

Jan did what she thought was best at the time - supply the drug. After all it was her daughter,

rock : hard place.

[Alyosha]

Several AVA investigations and imposed sanctions over recent years have been published in the media as well. Nothing mentioned here is known about through private dealings.

Off label use of something like Nurofen should be done under prescription and not over the phone anyway. How many human GPs would prescribe off label use of anything over the phone? And who would speak out in support of them if they did?

Like SSM says - people need to find a balance between what is affordable and what is reasonable. You get what you pay for sometimes...

[Diva]

Trouble is some people just can't afford Canberra's normal prices, or can but find the 'credit card up front' attitude of the major clinics a turn off. Jan has some very loyal supporters, a few are friends of mine, and they support her because they believe she provides a service to those who cannot afford high local prices, think she has better diagnostic skills than the newly qualified vets they run into elsewhere, and because they prefer her abrupt no-nonsense approach. They know the trouble she has been in, but they judge her on how she has dealt with them, not the AVAs view. I have discussed it with them - they trust her obvious flaws more than those they see in other vets and clinics. It was not a suprise to me when she was voted Canberra's most popular vet in that radio poll. There is a disconnect somewhere between parts of the animal owning population and the Canberra vet culture.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Diva

[nawnim]

Diva, that is a good post.

While I do not know Jan personally I have also met people who were very grateful for her services and had nothing but praise for her abilities. It seems to me that she is prepared to be non-conformist if needed and I like people with that sort of courage and I believe she does not deserve to be denigrated on a public Internet forum. I believe she is trying to do the right thing by both her clients and their animals. In the case in the OP the owner of the cat is responsible because he overdosed his cat.

My current vet does not demand a credit card up front, (I would be in trouble if he did because I do not have one.) but I have heard of so many others in Canberra that do and it is scary. My current vet actually offers a pensioner discount and unexpected expenses can be paid off in instalments.

[RazorBlade]

It's not always about the money either. Some people prefer the style of care that Jan offers and they like the approach that she takes. Someone else has already said that its all about the animals with Jan and that she has in the past provided care for free so animals don't suffer. People seem not to like her because of her no bells and whistles, straight up approach but that is also why so many people love her. Rural vet v flashy city vet.

[Yonjuro]

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realise that 4 x overdose of a painkiller would be dangerous to a human or pet. I would think that if you were unsure of how to get 0.5ml then you would err on the lighter side. A 1ml syringe is available from any chemist for less than a dollar. Even a 5ml syringe will allow you to accurately measure 0.5ml.

I don't buy into the argument that an upset owner will not be in the right frame of mind to doses more accurately than 4 x over. I have a 5 year old daughter and there have been so many times when she has been sick or in pain and we have had to give really small doses of nurofen especially when she was a small baby. We have been extremely upset, but never has this impacted on administering the correct amount.

Having said that, it is strange that the vet didn't supply more appropriate pain killers when they left the surgery?? Whenever my dog left surgery the vet always supplied at least 4 days more than what would normally be required, just incase the pain went on for a longer period than anticipated. This didn't mean that we would administer more than required or ever overdose.

Anyway it is sad for all concerned. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and the vet should have said see an emergency vet or tough it out and come first thing in the morning. Probably the vet cared a bit too much and sought to offer a temporary and emergency solution to the pain.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Yonjuro

[BJean]

Trouble is some people just can't afford Canberra's normal prices, or can but find the 'credit card up front' attitude of the major clinics a turn off. Jan has some very loyal supporters, a few are friends of mine, and they support her because they believe she provides a service to those who cannot afford high local prices, think she has better diagnostic skills than the newly qualified vets they run into elsewhere, and because they prefer her abrupt no-nonsense approach. They know the trouble she has been in, but they judge her on how she has dealt with them, not the AVAs view. I have discussed it with them - they trust her obvious flaws more than those they see in other vets and clinics. It was not a suprise to me when she was voted Canberra's most popular vet in that radio poll. There is a disconnect somewhere between parts of the animal owning population and the Canberra vet culture.

Thanks Diva. I dont know the vet and have no experience of vets in Canberra - but what I like about what I have read about this vet named Jan, is she was prepared to give practical advice to a pet owner in need, think outside the square and find possible medication from what was available.

Shame on the owner to drag the vet down when Jan took a risk of 'protocol' to help him.

I wish there were more vets like Jan.

[persephone]

don't buy into the argument that an upset owner will not be in the right frame of mind to doses more accurately than 4 x over. I have a 5 year old daughter and there have been so many times when she has been sick or in pain and we have had to give really small doses of nurofen especially when she was a small baby. We have been extremely upset, but never has this impacted on administering the correct amount.

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I'm glad that you cope well under stress like that ... a lot of people don't

[Yonjuro]

... I am not saying I cope well at all, it is horrible when a loved one is in pain and this stresses me out to the max. However I still have a responsibility to slap myself, tell myself to keep my poop together and make sure I am very careful in how I carry out instructions.

It is really sad for the the owner and vet in this terrible tragedy.

[tdierikx]

The average dog owner would be surprised at how many medications can be used off label with good success in animals.

For example - it is fairly common for rural vets to prescribe Baycox (usually for pigs) off label in the treatment of puppies with coccidia - the best part is that it's safe if dosed correctly, and it's a single dose treatment... unlike a 10 day (twice a day) course of extremely bitter tablets that pups refuse to take after tasting the first one. Not to mention that as Baycox is a liquid, it's much easier to get a correct dose than breaking up tablets that come in a minimum 4kg dog weight dose.

I've had vets confirm that a certain dose of human medications can be efficacious for short term pain relief until one can get the animal to see the vet the next day (if called outside normal hours).

T.

[Rosetta]

Not familiar with this vet but I think any vet should make an assessment of the client's ability to follow instructions especially regarding fiddly doses. Many elderly people for instance commonly misdose themselves and have great difficulty with measuring minute doses. I don't know if this man was elderly or not.

[minimax]

Not familiar with this vet but I think any vet should make an assessment of the client's ability to follow instructions especially regarding fiddly doses. Many elderly people for instance commonly misdose themselves and have great difficulty with measuring minute doses. I don't know if this man was elderly or not.

They are vets, not psychologists.

[keetamouse]

Not familiar with this vet but I think any vet should make an assessment of the client's ability to follow instructions especially regarding fiddly doses.

Are you serious

[keetamouse]

We also don't know if the surgery was done by Jan, it doesn't actually say that in the article, quote: which had undergone surgery earlier in the day there is another presumption....

Maree

CPR

Edited June 24, 2013 by keetamouse

[Rosetta]

Not familiar with this vet but I think any vet should make an assessment of the client's ability to follow instructions especially regarding fiddly doses.

Are you serious

Well yes - should have phrased differently - so far as a medical professional who supplies medications directly to a client will go over the dosages etc with them and ensure they have an accurate understanding.