Dog Biting Child

[Staff'n'Toller]

How many other dogs do you have?

If you decide to PTS this dog, then you need a veterinary behaviourist consultation on how to manage the other dogs with your child.

You cannot keep dogs separate from children, in the same home, indefinitely. You must help your other dogs integrate safely with the baby as well, not just assume they will be OK.

No-one here should be giving you advice on whether or not to PTS your dog, that's between you and your trusted vet.

I adopted a dog from a well-known and very respected interstate rescue group. One of the few requirements I had was that the dog be good with children. It didn't have to love them, as long as it was okay. The dog arrived and not only was he not okay with kids, attempts by them at approaching him would be met with snarls and if they got close enough, air snaps (which I assume would progress to actual bites, if he was pushed too far). I didn't want to send him back, not with "seems very likely to bite children" hanging over his head so we kept him and yes, have kept him separated from our children ever since (more than six years). We have two other dogs who are fine with children so they have free access to all the house except kids' bedrooms. The dog who is not fine with kids has his own area where he is safe from children and they are safe from him. It works well and he's a happier dog for having his own safe place- we have actually seen small improvements over the years in his reactions towards kids.

Hats off to you for keeping the dog and implementing a good management system for the dog and your children.

I am not trying to bait here, this is an honest question - do you have public liability insurance in case the worst happens and he bites someone else's child? Or is he covered under his own pet insurance policy for public liability?

[Maddy]

How many other dogs do you have?

If you decide to PTS this dog, then you need a veterinary behaviourist consultation on how to manage the other dogs with your child.

You cannot keep dogs separate from children, in the same home, indefinitely. You must help your other dogs integrate safely with the baby as well, not just assume they will be OK.

No-one here should be giving you advice on whether or not to PTS your dog, that's between you and your trusted vet.

I adopted a dog from a well-known and very respected interstate rescue group. One of the few requirements I had was that the dog be good with children. It didn't have to love them, as long as it was okay. The dog arrived and not only was he not okay with kids, attempts by them at approaching him would be met with snarls and if they got close enough, air snaps (which I assume would progress to actual bites, if he was pushed too far). I didn't want to send him back, not with "seems very likely to bite children" hanging over his head so we kept him and yes, have kept him separated from our children ever since (more than six years). We have two other dogs who are fine with children so they have free access to all the house except kids' bedrooms. The dog who is not fine with kids has his own area where he is safe from children and they are safe from him. It works well and he's a happier dog for having his own safe place- we have actually seen small improvements over the years in his reactions towards kids.

Hats off to you for keeping the dog and implementing a good management system for the dog and your children.

I am not trying to bait here, this is an honest question - do you have public liability insurance in case the worst happens and he bites someone else's child? Or is he covered under his own pet insurance policy for public liability?

Although he is covered under our house insurance, he isn't put in situations where he could bite someone else's child anyway. I am of the opinion that accidents aren't bad luck, they're more likely to be bad management so it is my responsibility to make sure he's managed safely and not put in the sorts of situations were he might not react well.

He is no more of a liability risk than the young, silly dog who likes to jump on visitors (if anything, he's actually less of a risk).

[Nekhbet]

The baby was not allowed in "their space" on advice so he didn't go near their softbeds or crates.

I think have a good think before PTS if you love the dog so much. Build a dog run for him when he's outside with a padlock on it, and when he's inside he should be in a large child proof crate. Any welder or engineering place can make one for you out of fine mesh fingers cannot get through.

I think the advice you have been given personally is not what I would give, nervy dog or not. I don't think this comes from a place in the pack, it's an already unsure dog more unsure and noone guiding him in definite no no behavior. I'm not saying push the child in the dogs face at all, but the dog needs to know life is now like this, cope with it. Run to crate and back, only by you and both padlocked. The dog can have one on one time with you when the child is inside or in bed and the dog is attached to you.

I would try something different to at least make the dog less reactive towards the child. You cannot make a dog like or love something, but you can teach is what is acceptable or not and at least the dog learns if it feels threatened it backs off from the child and goes to an adult or it's crate in case of emergencies. It can be done, I wouldnt give up yet on the dog.

[Bjelkier]

The baby was not allowed in "their space" on advice so he didn't go near their softbeds or crates.

I think have a good think before PTS if you love the dog so much. Build a dog run for him when he's outside with a padlock on it, and when he's inside he should be in a large child proof crate. Any welder or engineering place can make one for you out of fine mesh fingers cannot get through.

I think the advice you have been given personally is not what I would give, nervy dog or not. I don't think this comes from a place in the pack, it's an already unsure dog more unsure and noone guiding him in definite no no behavior. I'm not saying push the child in the dogs face at all, but the dog needs to know life is now like this, cope with it. Run to crate and back, only by you and both padlocked. The dog can have one on one time with you when the child is inside or in bed and the dog is attached to you.

I would try something different to at least make the dog less reactive towards the child. You cannot make a dog like or love something, but you can teach is what is acceptable or not and at least the dog learns if it feels threatened it backs off from the child and goes to an adult or it's crate in case of emergencies. It can be done, I wouldnt give up yet on the dog.

Very good advice IMO.

[Trisven13]

Would be a no-brainer for me, the dog would be gone.

We all have different tolerances of acceptable behaviour but human aggression of any kind, for me, is in the "see you later" category. I have no tolerance for aggression.

I don't think you have mismanaged anything anymore than anyone else with a 9 month old child would, in fact I think you've made extraordinary effort and the reality is that once your child is older the chance of more nasty interactions will only increase. Anyone who thinks you can manage a toddler 24 hours a day & know exactly where they are has never had one IMO.

[dee lee]

Would be a no-brainer for me, the dog would be gone.

We all have different tolerances of acceptable behaviour but human aggression of any kind, for me, is in the "see you later" category. I have no tolerance for aggression.

I don't think you have mismanaged anything anymore than anyone else with a 9 month old child would, in fact I think you've made extraordinary effort and the reality is that once your child is older the chance of more nasty interactions will only increase. Anyone who thinks you can manage a toddler 24 hours a day & know exactly where they are has never had one IMO.

Totally agree.

The risk is too high, my child would come first.

The OP has worked hard to manage the situation & it's impossible to guarantee no future slip ups, with possibly deadly consequences.

I've made the same decision without actual biting, just recognition of potential risk (& growing emotional trauma) to my children. It was hideously painful to do, but I don't regret it.

I'm full of admiration for those who can manage it, but in my experience, nobody benefits from extreme management that is needed when kids are involved- the dog's life is extremely restricted (mine was NEVER offlead, walked at 5am, then kept alone in a tiny courtyard) and the family feels like they are taken hostage, living in fear of a slip up.

[Rascalmyshadow]

I have not read all posts but I would PTS without question. I have been through this exact scenario.

My old poodle boy was my constant companion and the love of my life before kids.

To cut a long story short he bit my son on the face as a toddler, I made the mistake of spending a lot of money on a pro behaviourist and put in a lot of hard work to make things right.

Everything seemed fine until my daughter came along same thing happened when she was learning to walk but this time things were worse because he was an older dog. The same training methods didn't work and we gave him his wings. I regret not making that decision after the first time.

As your bub gets older the dog is likely to get worse, PTS before anything more serious happens, even when we love our dogs children must come first.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

If you had a do over...

I made a huge fuss of them when I came home, and have always made sure they were patted, well taken care of, and got plenty of play time and attention. The baby was not allowed in "their space" on advice so he didn't go near their softbeds or crates.

I guess the dog didn't learn that the baby was no threat. Or part of the pack to be protected. One dog got it, and the other didn't.

If I was planning on bringing in a small child into my household (I think my dog would handle this better than me), I would practice being around small children a lot with my dog well ahead of time when I had plenty of control over the environment. If the dog was being uncomfortable about it - I would try to make a connection of all the good things the dog likes - being only available when the baby was around. Or only when there were screaming annoying rude (but not touching) children around.

Sort of NILIF + Premack = all good things come from/with/in presence of the baby. So the baby lights up all the joy centres in the dog's brain instead of all the competition and resource guarding brain bits.

But I think it would be hard to reprogram the dog now, and given you did about 3/4 of it before and that didn't work... I don't know that it would this time.

If you can find the right behaviourist to give you a "all good things come from baby" plan that you could manage to implement without keeling over from exhaustion... then may be you could try that for a month and see (dog would have to be in their crate all the times you couldn't supervise), but otherwise...

If I was in Sydney - I'd give Steve Courtney at k9pro.com.au a ring and discuss ideas with him.

Always when things go to hell with my dog - I look at what I'm doing that might be contributing and try to get video of what is going on so I can look at it more independently to see stuff I miss being in it. It's hard if the problem is intermittent but easier if you know what to set up to trigger the curled lip (there's proably a bunch of other signals the dog makes before even this).

[ash1]

The baby was not allowed in "their space" on advice so he didn't go near their softbeds or crates.

I think have a good think before PTS if you love the dog so much. Build a dog run for him when he's outside with a padlock on it, and when he's inside he should be in a large child proof crate. Any welder or engineering place can make one for you out of fine mesh fingers cannot get through.

I think the advice you have been given personally is not what I would give, nervy dog or not. I don't think this comes from a place in the pack, it's an already unsure dog more unsure and noone guiding him in definite no no behavior. I'm not saying push the child in the dogs face at all, but the dog needs to know life is now like this, cope with it. Run to crate and back, only by you and both padlocked. The dog can have one on one time with you when the child is inside or in bed and the dog is attached to you.

I would try something different to at least make the dog less reactive towards the child. You cannot make a dog like or love something, but you can teach is what is acceptable or not and at least the dog learns if it feels threatened it backs off from the child and goes to an adult or it's crate in case of emergencies. It can be done, I wouldnt give up yet on the dog.

Nekhbet, I'm not having a go or trying to be rude, I respect your knowledge and advice a lot, but wouldn't this be a miserable kind of way for a dog to live; i.e., locked in a cage all day and locked in a crate all night? I'm genuinely curious as to how the dog would cope.

[Pollywaffle]

I understand the reasoning behind what most have advocated; it's certainly a sad situation for everyone, but perhaps foolishly, my sympathies can't seem to move beyond the dog.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Pollywaffle

[tdierikx]

I understand the reasoning behind what most have advocated; it's certainly a sad situation for everyone, but perhaps foolishly, my sympathies can't seem to move beyond the dog.

But we don't have to live with the dog in question... or need to make sure that it doesn't do further harm to the little boy.

It's a very hard decision to make, and the OP has my full sympathies and support for whatever course of action she needs to take to ensure the wellbeing of her child.

T.

[Rascalmyshadow]

A question to the people suggesting management rather than PTS, how would you feel if down the track the dog and child accidentally come in contact and the child ends up with a serious bite possibly needing plastic surgery or worse.

How do you explain that to a child when older, their face is disfigured because you thought more of the dog.

Here is a pic of my daughter after she was bitten look under her left eye. Although the wounds don't look that bad it did end up with quite a lot of bruising. Imagine if it had of been just millimetres closer she could have lost her eye. It happened while I was at work and my husband was no more than a metre away. Jorja stumbled didn't touch the dog but gave him a fright and he lashed out.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Rascalmyshadow

[Wobbly]

Yeah Rascal, that's what I keep thinking, it just takes one moment of of inattention, a guest doing the wrong thing, older child being forgetful... It could go so wrong, and ther results couldbe so tragic, it's just too great a risk IMO.

Sometimes as a parent you have to make huge sacrifices for the wellbeing of your child, this is about the biggest sacrifice we dog lovers could imagine, and ultimately the OPS decision, but I too would PTS in this situation. As others have said have a beautiful goodbye day with the dog, then let him go. You gave him a great life, he will never suffer the pains of old age, no arthritis for his, no disorientation of dementia, none of the sorrows or indignities of ageing. It will be hard for you, you'll miss him terribly, but it will be fine for him, no pain, no fear.

Big hugs, OP this is such a hard position to be in.

[Justrace]

Given the babies age, they are going to be soon very mobile (and they are fast) I'd be worried that this & being separated from everyone, would escalate frustration in the dog. Most mothers of young children are tired & I would personally be concerned that I would one day stuff up - not lock the gate correctly.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Justrace

[megan_]

I understand the reasoning behind what most have advocated; it's certainly a sad situation for everyone, but perhaps foolishly, my sympathies can't seem to move beyond the dog.

The dog isn't being PTS as a punishment.

[megan_]

Yeah Rascal, that's what I keep thinking, it just takes one moment of of inattention, a guest doing the wrong thing, older child being forgetful... It could go so wrong, and ther results couldbe so tragic, it's just too great a risk IMO.

Yes. A behaviourist who is very well respected and often recommended on this forum told me that you can never rely on management alone - in all probability you will slip up one day, so you need to work on behaviour modification. You can do that with consenting adults - something goes wrong with counter-conditioning and they get a nip, but not with a baby.

[Nekhbet]

Nekhbet, I'm not having a go or trying to be rude, I respect your knowledge and advice a lot, but wouldn't this be a miserable kind of way for a dog to live; i.e., locked in a cage all day and locked in a crate all night? I'm genuinely curious as to how the dog would cope.

That's OK I don't mind! The dog doesn't have to be locked in a tiny run, even cutting the backyard in half with a finger-poking and climb proof fence so the dog has enough room to run and play. As for the crate, the dog is not enjoying interacting with the child loose, a roomy crate so the dog is not uncomfortably confined but cannot be accessed. If the crate is in the family area like a living room then the dog is not being necessarily separated fully, it can still see and feel part of the family without accident.

When the kids have gone to bed the dog can come out to be with the OP and put two baby gates between the kids bedrooms and the living area where the dog is with the OP. If one of the kids wakes up and comes out of the bedroom you will know without risk of them just wandering in, and you put bells on the baby gate so you hear them being touched.

Yes. A behaviourist who is very well respected and often recommended on this forum told me that you can never rely on management alone - in all probability you will slip up one day, so you need to work on behaviour modification

That is very true but you are right, you cannot put the dog and child face to face to sort it out. You can get to a degree but a nip is a nip and the chance is now there.

It's why I recommended padlocks on the crate and gate to the run. It can't be accidentally left unlocked or be opened by anyone by the owner. If the OP is the only one in charge of accessing the dog then there can be minimal chance of slip ups. Its when there are multiple people involved invariably the process slips.

I'm just giving management ways so the OP can keep her dog alive. The dog will cope, it has to cope with it and I think a tougher approach in general would not be a bad thing. Routine for a nervy dog can be a good thing, lack of ability to make panicked decisions too by being loose would help as well. If you control this dogs every movement everyone might be happy for a longer term solution.

[rubiton]

Sounds excellent advice Nekhbet - Im amazed at how many would discard a 10yo dog because the dog doesn't understand and isn't coping with the situation. Perhaps the OP should have sought professional help sooner but that's hindsight and sounds like they tried to prepare and since it worked with one dog guess they thought as many would that the other dog would 'come around'.

But then I remember a story on a horse forum where an old dog was near a door and a kid barged through door, door hit old dog, old dog lashed out at kid and owner grabbed dog and straight to vet and PTS. Poor thing was only reacting to be surprised and hurt by a door and many agreed it was right thing to do as if dogs are not animals and are suppose to understand they cannot react ever.

[Trisven13]

Sounds excellent advice Nekhbet - Im amazed at how many would discard a 10yo dog because the dog doesn't understand and isn't coping with the situation. Perhaps the OP should have sought professional help sooner but that's hindsight and sounds like they tried to prepare and since it worked with one dog guess they thought as many would that the other dog would 'come around'.

But then I remember a story on a horse forum where an old dog was near a door and a kid barged through door, door hit old dog, old dog lashed out at kid and owner grabbed dog and straight to vet and PTS. Poor thing was only reacting to be surprised and hurt by a door and many agreed it was right thing to do as if dogs are not animals and are suppose to understand they cannot react ever.

Did you miss the part where she said that they sort the advice of a professional BEFORE the child was even born??????????????? A dog should never come before a child IMO when that child is your own.

[Staffyluv]

My heart really goes out to the OP, what a decision to have to make.

Only you can really know in your heart, what is the best thing for you, your child and the dog.

I will be honest and say that I would try every possible avenue (I realise you seem to have mostly done this already) - I would try a couple of different behaviourists, if it was my heart dog (someone might have advice that would make the situation liveable)..

I also realise that the safety of the child is the highest priority..

We can all sit here and type what we would do - but in reality, no one can know what they would do unless faced with the exact same situation.

I wish you well in your decision, it isn't one I would be comfortable having to make - no matter what you choose.