Attention All Breeders Involved In The Rescue Scene

[Steve]

I'm not even sure that is legally possible.

What being legal, restricting the maximum numbers of say dogs you are allowed to have on a specific property across the state, of course they can. There are council limits in various parts of the country, in the ACT if you're not a registered breeder you cannot have any more than 4 dogs. All they are doing in Victoria is extending this thinking to the breeding community.

I meant taking dogs and killing them for simply being over numbers...one would think there would be a warning system / an opportunity afforded to the owner to reduce numbers first.

That's usually the way and unless there is a welfare concern - sick dogs or filth etc it takes a court to have the animals removed

See this case recently dealt with in the courts in Victoria - these guys were lucky too because the current laws were drafted to be able to close them down and even take their assets - lots not happy with the outcome and its no guarantee that all will end this way.

Quote - link no longer current

A TOORADIN puppy farmer has escaped conviction under new laws designed to stamp out puppy farming after a vet described him as far too kind for his own good.Koo Wee Rup vet Luke Morrison told the court Derul Van Hollis and his wife Judy ran one of the best dog-breeding establishments he had encountered, with dogs well cared for even when well beyond breeding age. Mr Van Hollis could have made a lot more money if he'd got rid of them," he said. "As far as I was concerned, it's a totally inefficient business and that's due to their passion for looking after their animals.In the Dandenong Magistrates Court last week, Mr Hollis and his company Demfield Pty Ltd pleaded guilty to 115 charges of running an unregistered breeding business and failing to comply with the code of practice for breeding and rearing establishments.The case, brought by Casey Council, was the first prosecution in Victoria under 'Oscar's Law', named after a puppy rescued from a dog-breeding factory in central Victoria in 2011. Magistrate Brian Barrow fined Demfield a total of $11,500 plus $6700 costs, but did not record a conviction or penalty against Mr Van Hollis. He said he was satisfied from the evidence that he was not one of the rogue puppy farmers targeted by Oscar's Law.Prosecutor Brett Melke told the court council officers visited Mr Van Hollis' property on January 12 last year and found 112 unregistered dogs and 11 puppies on the premises.Counsel for Mr Van Hollis, David Starvaggi, said this was not a case of animal cruelty. He said Mr Van Hollis had previously had a permit for 84 dogs but he had let certain regulatory matters lapse after his wife suffered a stroke.Mr Barrow said it was clear from the evidence of Dr Morrison, and that of two other animal welfare experts, that Mr Van Hollis was highly conscientious in his care of his dogs.Mrs Van Hollis gave a cry of relief when Mr Barrow said he would not make an order for the removal of the dogs "from what I'm satisfied is a caring environment".He said Mr Van Hollis was entitled to benefit from his good record and discharged him without conviction or penalty on condition that he register the dogs and the business and comply with the code of practice. Casey mayor Amanda Stapledon said the council was disappointed in the verdict, which did not reflect the council's repugnance about puppy farming.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Steve

[mita]

We all need to be aware of our local restrictions and abide by them..

Yes, I thought local council regulations was first off the block in determining numbers, per se.

I wonder if registered breeders could do what many European breeders do ... & have some of their dogs living with other people, in urban areas (in accord with relevant local laws).

I notice that one of the responsible Qld rescues does that with 'retired' dogs.

And, of course, there's adopting mature dogs. All our dogs are retired from good breeders.

Given increasing emphasis on numbers, per se... with not necessarily referring to condition of dogs & property ... then maybe different models of operation could be looked at.

And numbers do count in what hard-wiring is laid down as a result of extent of interactions with humans. US research found puppies from small scale, non-commercial breeders do much better later, in behaviour terms, than those from numerically large scale operations.

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/2013-05-16/latest-news/penn-vet-study-finds-pet-store-puppies-come-increased-risk

Edited June 20, 2013 by mita

[Loreley]

Not withstanding this particular person's situation, I have done considerable reading over the last couple of nights since starting this thread, and must admit that what this person has been told and what the actual laws indicate appear quite different, but I'll get to that in a minute.

As a new comer, the whole side of this is a considerably daunting thing to even look into to be honest and it would certainly make me wonder why any of you go through this process at all.

Under Victorian State law - if you go through the process and expense (and from what I can work out it isn't a small amount of money) of becoming a 'registered' breeder, why then would you bother if all you have to do to get around it is to become a member of Dogs VIC or other listed organisation and apply to be exempted (and I presume effectively classed as a hobby breeder I think), with that you can have up to 10 breeding animals. So why would you bother?

So you have been approved to have 10 breeding animals, is there a council ANYWHERE that will allow 10 animals? and if not why then would they bother to put an actual number in there at all if their laws are going to be superceded by council regulations, further restricting the numbers.

Then you have this particular Council's regulations which state that if you have more than 2 dogs, you will require a permit from Council.

Ok I get that, it makes sense so far, until you get to the part that the Ranger told this person.

"You can apply for a permit from council, but it will only allow an additional dog"

So if this is the case why would council not say so in any of their documentation? When you read all the literature on the permit system you are led to believe that the number of animals you are applying for will be heard and decided on based on the evidence and circumstances you present with your application. If this is not the case then why not openly say 2 dog limit, approval of a permit will allow an additional dog, and again I go back to the Victorian State laws, why bother to go through all that to get registration for 10 dogs if you're never going to be able to have that many?

I know multi level laws are hard, but to me neither the state legislation nor the council regulations are worth the paper they are written on.

Oh and then I started to look into what you need to do to become classed as a rescue shelter, I haven't waded through that one yet.

This is a good discussion, learning heaps with lots of peoples different perspectives and experience, thanks everyone for your input.

[~Anne~]

Each State is different.

In NSW we do not have state limits, only local council by-laws that can recommend and or enforce limits. We also have the option of applying for a kennel license (I can't recall the exact name for this but it is similar to a development styled application in process I believe), which is what greyhound owners, larger breeding programs, and rescues I believe are or should be operating under.

[Steve]

Not withstanding this particular person's situation, I have done considerable reading over the last couple of nights since starting this thread, and must admit that what this person has been told and what the actual laws indicate appear quite different, but I'll get to that in a minute.

As a new comer, the whole side of this is a considerably daunting thing to even look into to be honest and it would certainly make me wonder why any of you go through this process at all.

Under Victorian State law - if you go through the process and expense (and from what I can work out it isn't a small amount of money) of becoming a 'registered' breeder, why then would you bother if all you have to do to get around it is to become a member of Dogs VIC or other listed organisation and apply to be exempted (and I presume effectively classed as a hobby breeder I think), with that you can have up to 10 breeding animals. So why would you bother?

So you have been approved to have 10 breeding animals, is there a council ANYWHERE that will allow 10 animals? and if not why then would they bother to put an actual number in there at all if their laws are going to be superceded by council regulations, further restricting the numbers.

Then you have this particular Council's regulations which state that if you have more than 2 dogs, you will require a permit from Council.

Ok I get that, it makes sense so far, until you get to the part that the Ranger told this person.

"You can apply for a permit from council, but it will only allow an additional dog"

So if this is the case why would council not say so in any of their documentation? When you read all the literature on the permit system you are led to believe that the number of animals you are applying for will be heard and decided on based on the evidence and circumstances you present with your application. If this is not the case then why not openly say 2 dog limit, approval of a permit will allow an additional dog, and again I go back to the Victorian State laws, why bother to go through all that to get registration for 10 dogs if you're never going to be able to have that many?

I know multi level laws are hard, but to me neither the state legislation nor the council regulations are worth the paper they are written on.

Oh and then I started to look into what you need to do to become classed as a rescue shelter, I haven't waded through that one yet.

This is a good discussion, learning heaps with lots of peoples different perspectives and experience, thanks everyone for your input.

Lovely isnt it. Firstly in Victoria a permit to have a domestic animal business licence is different to council approvals to keep more than 2 dogs on your property or be involved in an activity on your property. If you are Vic dogs you get to have 10 fertile dogs before you need to get one of these permits to have a domestic animal business and currently you still have to comply with all of the crap mandatory codes no matter how many you have or what group you are a member of...... but proposed laws exempt them from needing to comply with mandatory codes if they are Vic dogs and have under 10 fertile animals. And you are right in Victoria there is no such thing as a council which allows you to have more than 2 dogs without approvals.

Now here comes the bit that worries us all. You cant just look up something and know what you need to do or have in place to be able to get approval to breed dogs on your property because each and every application to have approval to breed dogs or even to own more than 2 dogs on your property no matter how big it is and no matter what zone it is in is taken on a case by case situation.

This of course makes it susceptible to corruption and one breeder or dog owner being treated completely differently to their neighbours.

Lots of Vic dogs registered breeders have been of the belief that their exemptions meant they were exempt from having to have the planning permits for the dog numbers when in fact right now all it gives them is an exemption from having to pay for a permit to breed dogs no matter what if you own more than 2 dogs in suburbia you have to have an approval to have any more if you live in a rural zone you can have 5 [usually] but if they are fertile and you are not Vicdogs you need a DAL because you are then considered a breeder even if you never breed them or intend to breed them.

Now then you come to the legislation which covers rescue and if she is acting as a shelter she is very much restricted in that area as well.

Either way in Victoria you need planning approval, on top of that you need a domestic animal licence if you are not Vicdogs and own more than 3 fertile dogs or if you are Vicdogs and own 10 fertile dogs.

If you are a shelter you need a planning approval, and you need to comply with mandatory codes and laws pertaining to that - including how long a rescue animal can stay on your premises, and what conditions the dogs must be in to be offered for re homing etc.

Nothing in Victoria pertaining to dogs is uncomplicated but the fact is whilst you may be able to argue some council's policies are not counted as a council cannot put harder laws on that state laws but in the main they are covered in state legislation.

[Loreley]

Sums it up perfectly... Yep and that's why I'm confused.

[Loreley]

So is a Kennel License different to a Rescue Shelter Licence then?

[Loreley]

and if its so complicated how on earth do you make sure you comply? there is such a spaghetti of rules overlapping each other, how do you honestly know what you need to apply for? Ive been trolling the vic gov site for 2 days and other than a really bit headache, there is no way I could even think about the possibility of setting up a breeding set or a rescue shelter.

[garnali]

Domestic animal services in Canberra spell it out quite well :

Application procedure

Persons wishing to keep four or more dogs must make an application under section 19 of the Domestic Animals Act 2000 for a multiple dog licence. An application form can be obtained from Domestic Animal Services.

Prior to lodging your application each individual dog must be registered, micro-chipped and de-sexed (unless the keeper holds a sexually entire permit). You are also required to provide a map and photos of your premises, outlining any existing facilities and any proposed construction. A Ranger from Domestic Animal Services must also conduct a site inspection of your property and consult with surrounding residents.

The Registrar may take numerous things into consideration before granting a licence. This includes, but is not limited to:

•the number and kind of dogs to which the application relates;

•the size and nature of the premises where the dogs are proposed to be kept;

•the security of the premises;

•the suitability of facilities for keeping the dogs on the premises;

•the potential impact on the neighbouring premises; and

•any conviction or finding of guilt of the applicant within the last 10 years against a Territory or State law for an offence relating to the welfare, keeping or control of an animal.

Minimum requirements to hold a multiple dog licence include:

•written approval from your landlord if you are a tenant;

•no objections from your neighbours;

•pens or runs must be constructed in such a way that:

◦they are escape proof;

◦no part of the structure is closer than two metres from a boundary fence;

◦they are large enough to allow freedom of movement;

◦they have adequate shelter from the elements; and

◦the floor of the structure facilitates hygienic disposal of animal waste and ease of cleaning.

•adequate conditions for sanitary disposal of collected waste; and

•dogs must be penned when the house is unattended (they may use the rest of the yard for exercise when you are home).

Payment of fees

A fee is payable if the licence is granted. A yearly renewal applies and must be paid at Domestic Animal Services.

If you have any questions in relation to these guidelines, please call 13 22 81 or visit Domestic Animal Services on Mugga Lane, Symonston during opening hours.

[garnali]

This was on the Victorian government website:

Legal Requirements for Dog Owners

The law aims to protect animals from neglect and cruelty, and to protect the community from animals becoming a nuisance or danger.

If you don't comply with legal requirements, such as microchipping, registration, and confinement of dogs to your property, you can be fined.

Check with your council to see if they have any local laws that may require dogs to be desexed, or any other local laws that may apply to dog ownership.

Under animal cruelty legislation, if you mistreat or fail to properly care for your dog you can be prosecuted and face fines, jail or a ban on owning an animal.

The use of electronic collars (such as Anti-Bark, remote training and containment collars) is strictly regulated.

It is illegal to tail dock, ear crop or debark dogs – these are called prohibited procedures.

There are also laws regulating dogs on moving vehicles, and the removal of dog poo in public places.

Permits are required when there are more than a certain number of cats or dogs kept in a household. This number is set by your local council, so you need to check with them what the limit is.

Note: Where the owner of a dog is under the age of 18 years, the parent or guardian of that owner will be deemed the legal owner of the dog and subject to any penalties/prosecutions

[Steve]

So is a Kennel License different to a Rescue Shelter Licence then?

Both need the same licence as a domestic animal business , both need planning approval to have more than 2 dogs, but even thise some things such as requirements for housing are the same in reality its a Completely different requirement as far as mandatory codes.

This one is for breeding AND rearing establishments - so thats anyone who whelps puppies from pregnant rescue dogs too here

This one is for shelters and pounds link

She will need to take a good look at the definition of someone who is operating as a shelter to see if that's what she comes under in that regard as she may come under a community foster carer depending on where and how she sources her rescue animals here

But regardless of what definition or mandatory code she may come under you cant just have unlimited numbers of dogs on your property no matter what your motivation or what they are used for without council approval to have that many on your premises.

By the way if you think at the end of the day its that much different in other states you may be surprised when you look a little closer and take into account planning laws.

[Steve]

and if its so complicated how on earth do you make sure you comply? there is such a spaghetti of rules overlapping each other, how do you honestly know what you need to apply for? Ive been trolling the vic gov site for 2 days and other than a really bit headache, there is no way I could even think about the possibility of setting up a breeding set or a rescue shelter.

Look probably more than most here Im all for people having rights as dog owners. I resent the fact that a quasi police force has so much power and no third party accountability. I think its all way over regulated and much of it is not based on science or really what is best for dogs BUT.

I have also seen people who are in a hell of a mess and as a result their dogs have a lowered quality of life. I dont think all dogs should be sleeping on satin pillow cases and I dont think they notice if the place needs painting etc

Now - Surely most of us would like to believe that before any of us get past first base that we at least like dogs so the assumption is that no one begins with an intent to have animals living in conditions that they shouldn't be in. Even if they don't like dogs much anyone that doesn't look after them well cant expect to get any money for their product. Neglect = more expenses, less productivity and less value on the product so sure there may be some cowboys but Id like to live under the belief that most begin with a reasonable desire to treat their animals well.

Being in a position where it crosses the line creeps up on you. Many don't really understand the extra expenses and extra work involved that mounts up with every dog you decide to keep whether you love it or not especially if it has special needs and that it doesn't happen over night. Others don't anticipate well enough how growing older and personal disasters might impact until they are in the middle of it.

Now I don't know who this breeder/rescue is or whether she is at risk of trying to do the right thing and overdoing it but the reality is that its pretty common that dog owners, breeders and rescue look up one day and its not as easy as was expected. This isnt just the risk of any one group though there has been more focus on breeders and in some areas it appears that people feel its O.K. for rescue dogs to live in rotten conditions because its better than being dead or homeless but dog owners who own too many and rescue who try to save too many at once are equally in the mix. Now just because you are a breeder AND you rescue your own breed doesn't let you off the hook and it doesn't mean you don't have to be held to the same standards.

You cant just have as many as you want regardless of your motivation without some kind of checks to ensure the dogs,your neighbours - and you are going to be O.K.

So whats the answer ? How do we have people who own dogs and or ,breed dogs and or rescue dogs without compromising on what is best for the dogs- and who will decide what is best or better for the dogs?

Lots of this is impacted by mythology and community expectation too. We want breeders to love their dogs, bond with them and see them as part of the family.Theoretically if you love them and have bonded with them you are less likely to neglect them. Raring puppies underfoot and living with them as part of the family is better for their long term outcomes. Many cant understand how a breeder can simply rehome them when they no longer breed them and from a personal perspective making the decision that if I want to continue breeding I will need to find a new home for one of my dogs is one of the hardest things Ive ever done in my life and there are some which I could never part with and if i had to choose I would stop breeding. Because animal rights have given breeders a fair public flogging and some put pressure on breeders to rescue some breeders think this will take some of the pressure off and they will be seen as one of the good guys- but at what cost for their own dogs?

So we all have choices and we should all be trusted to be grown ups and make decisions which are best without interference but we cant just decide we will have loads of dogs because lots of us put wanting lots of dogs over whats best for their welfare and the neighbours etc. There has to be some kind of system which ensures that the focus on what is best for dogs is not compromised and minimise the potential consequences and like it or not its up to everyone to make it their business to know what the rules are and what they have to comply with in their own area. When there is no self regulation there has to be someone who will be the bad guy.

[Steve]

Ok I get that, it makes sense so far, until you get to the part that the Ranger told this person.

"You can apply for a permit from council, but it will only allow an additional dog"

So if this is the case why would council not say so in any of their documentation? When you read all the literature on the permit system you are led to believe that the number of animals you are applying for will be heard and decided on based on the evidence and circumstances you present with your application. If this is not the case then why not openly say 2 dog limit, approval of a permit will allow an additional dog, and again I go back to the Victorian State laws, why bother to go through all that to get registration for 10 dogs if you're never going to be able to have that many?

They dont say it in their documentation because every one is taken on a case by case basis. Based on what the ranger saw as to what kenneling is in place and a bunch of other things as long as all stays the same he is saying that in his opinion its not possible for her to get a permit for more than one extra dog. The only way for her to test that is for her to apply for a permit BUT if she wants to have more on her property she will need to show how she will house them and care for them which complies with the mandatory codes and planning laws etc. What will she do with poo, how will she keep the noise down, how will she keep the place clean ,where and how will she quarantine, how far is she from neighbours, does it mean more traffic on her road than it would if she didnt have dogs, does she need parking areas blah blah blah .You dint just get to front up and ask for a permit for more dogs without saying what you have and what you will do.

[perryamstaffs]

This is unfortunatly true they are cracking down on the number of dogs on poperties ..... if by chance they look over and see more then permited then yes they can take the unregistered dogs ..... and also the ones over legally allowed ... the new laws if passed will impact rescues as well as to have over two dogs you need a permit for the idervidual dogs .... also if your a registered rescue / breeder under the council then you must comply to their rules which are unrealistic in suburbia beyond three / four if you still want a yard on most suburban block sizes ......i will ty to find the link tomorrow ... or look up the dpi vic you will find something on there

Sorry for spelling i am on my phone ... stupis small buttons :/

Edited June 21, 2013 by perryamstaffs

[perryamstaffs]

Omg sorry still stuffed it up ...

[Steve]

Well we have been yelling for years - no new laws - police the ones we have and if they are doing what they were supposed to do to prevent dogs being kept in conditions they shouldn't be in then not much to be done in the way of calling for more laws. Some Vicdogs breeders think they are special and don't understand the laws until someone comes in and bounces them, and some people think because they rescue they are above the laws too. Because the laws are so over done and cover the most ridiculous things it gets harder and harder to comply and it would be difficult to find anyone who couldn't on any given day be pinged - because they hadn't filed out a form or allowed more than 2 dogs to sleep in the same area etc or owned more than 2 dogs without permits etc.

Most of us would go a row because we have a litter in or near our homes when regs say that anymore than two dogs have to be housed at least 15 metres from a dwelling.

I seriously don't know what it is that makes people call for more laws and then get surprised that they will be impacted by them as well as those they thought should be affected. BUT these things are not new - though the penalties, the power the RSPCA and council have and the pressure for them to police them is increased.

[tdierikx]

Funnily enough, the only people that all these new rules and regulations are actually benefitting are the large scale commercial breeders... anyone see the irony there?

T.

[Steve]

The old rules and regs already controlled how many animals you can own without a permit or a planning approval - everyone including Vicdogs and rescue should have been complying with this for decades. The other stuff - new codes and laws impact on how you have to house them and that means even those who have had the permits and planning approvals are in trouble being able to comply now and those who want to do the right thing have much more to comply with.

This topic OP is about someone who has been breeding, rescuing and pretty much doing whatever she wants for decades without ever having approvals, that doesn't mean she didn't need approvals until now - just that she is now being held to what she should have been doing all along - all be it though now its harder to get and keep the approvals due to the crappy codes and there are much bigger potential penalties. In that way you are right they advantage and in fact encourage larger scale commercial breeding. If you are going to make people spend tens of thousands of dollars to built a purpose built factory to be able to produce puppies then you Have to expect they will produce more in order to pay for the expenses.

One of those proposals in the recent proposed changes in the codes which would affect rescue and breeders alike was an attempt to calculate how much time it takes per dog to do what needs to be done to ensure the dog's welfare - what a joke - one of the biggest messes Ive ever seen but part of that was about calculating how many staff per animals is required. They wanted one person per 25 dogs where 1 litter equals 1 fertile dog. So given that bitches all come in season at around the same time lets assume a breeder has 10 litters at varying ages at any one time - according to the calculation they would still be counted as having less than 25 if they owned 15 dogs. First cross labradoodles and many purebreds have around a dozen a litter so one person could have 125 dogs at any one time to look after. They can have 2 litters per bitch in the second year so thats around 250 puppies per year @ $1500 [low estimate] each a bit less if they simply pick em up and sell them to a pet shop pretty good wages isnt it and sure does pay for the new shiny factory.

[Loreley]

She will need to take a good look at the definition of someone who is operating as a shelter to see if that's what she comes under in that regard as she may come under a community foster carer depending on where and how she sources her rescue animals here

Ok so if the Rescue Group fits into the Community Foster Care, she would then apply a licence under that, then a permit to Council based on that is that correct? Is there a contact point within the Vict Government for all this, where she could contact to make sure that she complys with all the rules and applies for the right licences and permits?

Edited June 22, 2013 by Loreley

[Steve]

Steve Moore from the DPI can answer questions email but her council should be able to as well.