Kavik Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I do the two toy thing (toy swap lol) with my puppy to get him used to playing with different types of toys and to play with the toy I have but never even thought about using it to teach the out cue! That is a great idea! I'll give it a go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I do the two toy thing (toy swap lol) with my puppy to get him used to playing with different types of toys and to play with the toy I have but never even thought about using it to teach the out cue! That is a great idea! I'll give it a go I can't even remember where I learned that about 10 years ago lol I think it was from a schutzhund guy and I used it with my Mal pup. Rock solid outs and the dogs have never regressed, any of them. Even in full work mode I can out my dogs and I've never had to be heavy handed about it. To out should not be finality for the dog or they won't, when it's taught to be a theoretical 'swap', even if they don't get it again straight away they don't lose it. It will come again eventually and that's good enough :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I have a history of failure with the 2 toy method, I'd ruined it as an out approach by doing it poorly. But since I started applying Steve's advice, every method I had previously failed with, now works. "D "D 2 toys is definitely something I will incorporate as a reward for her, since giving another toy IS genuinely rewarding for her, unlike giving food. I've only done shaped retrieves on items she has no value for, stuff that she always has access to. I actually got outs even in swim/fetch/tug the other day, which I thought would never happen, huge win! No victory laps now, she brings it to me - interaction trumps possession finally, yay! Once upon a time I would never have believed she'd out in that most high arousal of contexts, but it's like I never had a problem now. Pretty amazing really. I have multi page thread about my troubles with out somewhere on DOL, it was really big problem and I did need lots of help to solve it. Happy to say this issue is not an issue anymore!! It was really the start of me being able to go further with training. I will never take the out for granted though, given the issues I had with it in the past, I'll definitely use the 2 toy method when I need to reward. I seriously have to start scaling back my rewarding though, I am devaluing the rewards with too much use and letting my dog get too comfortable with the notion that half arsed performances are good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I will never take the out for granted though, given the issues I had with it in the past, I'll definitely use the 2 toy method when I need to reward. I seriously have to start scaling back my rewarding though, I am devaluing the rewards with too much use and letting my dog get too comfortable with the notion that half arsed performances are good enough. Dog training is about learning and problem solving. Everyone makes mistakes, EVERYONE! Even the pros sometime do something absolutely stupid - we're only human. The difference is some people take it to heart and bring themselves down, others dust themselves off and chalk it up to experience. You need to make mistakes to learn, you see the consequences to your actions so don't be downheartened. Don't scale back the rewards, just give them for good performance. You need to show and help the dog to achieve that reward so just scaling back and suddenly putting firm parameters on the dog will decrease it's drive. Baby steps,small achievements and the dog will keep it's momentum. Remember, don't suddenly wake up today and shoot your expectations through the roof because you leave the dog behind. I'll try and take a video today of the GSD pup we're training at the moment and put it up for you to see, it's all through food at the moment because he's teething and I've banned tug toys until he's done. 2 toys is definitely something I will incorporate as a reward for her, since giving another toy IS genuinely rewarding for her, unlike giving food. I'll tell you what I tell my clients. You have a $50 note and I have a $5 note. I ask for the $50 in exchange for the $5 I have. Now you would tell me that's not fair and you wont give up that $50, but I'm telling you they're both money and therefor should be an even swap. It's the same with a dog, if the perceived value is lower then what they have right in front of them it's not rewarding enough. Now if I have a $50 and ask to swap for your $50 it's no problems, we can swap back and forth quite easily for ages with no stress on your behalf :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Yeah Nekhbet thats what I mean, I need to adjust my criteria and reward the best performances she gives me - I reward some truly shocking stuff, (watch me someday say 'sit" 3 times, then reward a half "sit" :laugh ) I knew I was doing that, but didn't see quite how bad I was with it until the video showed it. XD I am happy with how I rewarded for the burnout hoon distraction though, that was a definite 2 steps forward moment there. She didn't miss a beat there. Good dog! And for mistakes - yep! Absolutely agree with you - that's exactly what I tell myself - mistakes provide the best learning opportunities of all. I have A LOT of learning opportunities to work with it would seem. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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