What To Call It? Pocket Training?

[Wobbly]

I don't reward in position and I dont use food with my toy driven dog really aside from teaching some basic back end awareness in the beginning and sometimes for shaping new things, I think one of the best thing about dogs is there are so many different ways we can train them. I love training heelwork it's one of my favourite exercises and there are so many different styles and ways to train it.

Me too! That's why I jumped on this, for something new, we love heeling best of all since it is dynamic and moving. Except I haven't managed to convince Jarrah that we are actually heeling with the pocket hand yet. XD So far with it she just knows I chase her with my hand on her cheek then she gets a reward! But her outs are great now! :D :D :D

The food in the hand initially is about getting the head position. Once the dog offers the head position with the food then you can quickly fade the food and reward the hand target with a toy if thats your dogs preference. Given Denise's suggestions were posted an an offer to fix crabbing/forging the toy rewards were mostly thrown behind the dog and away from the dog so they were having to turn away from the handler. At least this was the discussion that was posted on the list at the time the videos were posted.

In the home, food is nearly as good as toys, the way I have brought her up, drive is triggered by location, a mistake I realise now, more derp to me. Ahh OK, i will try that thrown reward! Thanks Ness.

I found they could understand the context, when I first started Chess tried to jump up and touch the hand so I just ignored it until she fell into heel. She soon learned that when I put the hand out, standing at side = heel, standing at front = jump up. I also angle my palm down when doing the heel and hold it parallel to the ground for an "up". Not saying it's a better way, just that dogs are aces at working with details like that which does make it a different cue :)

Yes, you are so correct, i often don't give Jarrah credit for her smarts, she is completely able to distinguish small variations in body language, and differences in context.

[corvus]

so how do you get from "holding your dog's cheek" to something that looks legit in competition obedience?

I used this to train Kivi to come around behind and into heel position. He tended to swing out wide and end up on an angle towards me. The hand just told him where his head should be. I seem to remember it was a very brief thing and I was able to fade it very quickly to nothing at all. It's just forming a habit. Kivi is not exactly a forger or a crabber, so we didn't use it for actual heeling. To teach heel I taught a shoulder target to my leg and then shaped him off a smidge later. Extending it was kind of tricky at first because Kivi has a very low frustration threshold. I rode the extinction wave, which is frowned upon by good trainers, but it got me a very persistent heeler and rubbed off into other training contexts, which made Kivi about ten times easier to train in general. So who really cares. :p It's possible I'm about to do this for stays as well because I am too impatient with stays.

I think riding the extinction wave is allowed as long as you don't get into the habit of doing it. Bob Bailey talked about this at his seminar last year and I think the argument was it's risky compared to shaping it properly. And lazy. And encourages poor criteria setting.

[Wobbly]

Haha I definitely don't want to do anything that encourage poor criteria setting, it's a really weak point for me at the best of times.

Really where I am atm is just on focus. All Jarrah's life I have allowed her to focus on the environment as a primary source of engagament, the point of a walk for us in the past was so she could sniff EVERYthing. Now I've done a backflip in regards to that, the point of an outing is focus on me (of course we will maintain those sniffy walks too because we enjoy them, but sniffy disengagement like that must now be cued, not default.

The main point for me right now is to wait for engagement, and reward that with training opportunity. I will not cajole engagement, Jarrah needs to understand working with me - getting the opportunity for treats & tug (and also running and jumping, with me, that's rewardig to her too) is a priviliege contingent on her continued focus. When she loses focus for too long, we stop training, she loses the work and reward opportunity. This is what we've been fdoing in Denise's class and it's been working so well with old known default behaviours (sits, stays, downs etc) I am introducing a bunch of new known and unknown behaviours, the pocket seemed like such a useful and fun kind (it's someone else's homework in the course) of thing I want to add that to the mix, just for fun and variety.

It's a good one, I am learning lots about the more common mistakes I tend to make in training.

Not getting much done today though, I have a drilling and filling dental appointment today. Ouchies.

[paddles]

I just went out this morning to play with Flash and hopefully video a little heeling, I spent some time playing fetch (want to hear something funny? flash picked up the magnetic ball by the rope, and the ball swung and caught on his collar... he was trying to "drop the ball" but of course it stayed on his collar...

so... when my husband came out to video... this was an example of what we got... we had done a practice run prior, and of course he worked for that...

http://youtu.be/zajWncbLO_U

now keep in mind, he had been happily playing fetch with this ball 2 seconds before, he had been coming into heel to get the ball thrown....

[Weasels]

Maybe he's camera shy :p

[Wobbly]

Oh wow, Flash is gorgeous!!!!

Haha I had to laugh with you there. He's so cute. There is something about the video being on that makes it fall apart isn't there. XD Suspect it may be us - our body language and demeanour adjusting to scrutiny and the dog sensing the difference in us. Only cure for this I think is doing so much videoing we stop being self conscious about it.

I can't give any advice, coz I am clueless n00b, but lots of encouragement!!!! Does he know exactly what you're asking from him yet do you think? He seems to have a better grasp on it that Jarrah. I am a firm convert to Denise's idea of film it all, especially the less than perfect stuff, clearly identifying mistakes can be our most helpful tool.

I went one further than you, I decided there was no way my carport, where we normally train is going live on the internets till I clean it up, it's all heavy stuff I can't lift though, so not an easy job. That's the first time I ever worked on the balcony, not that I even have pocket hand as a known behaviour to generalise to other locations yet anyhow. XD

[Wobbly]

Haha I just watched you again, he's just so cute! XD

One of the reasons I think you're so way ahead on me in this is that Flash is good at verbal cues, it seems like your physical movement doesn't override the verbal cues to the same extent as I have with Jarrah. SOmething for me to aspire to here!

[paddles]

Haha I just watched you again, he's just so cute! XD

One of the reasons I think you're so way ahead on me in this is that Flash is good at verbal cues, it seems like your physical movement doesn't override the verbal cues to the same extent as I have with Jarrah. SOmething for me to aspire to here!

Wobbly, when you truly want to have a giggle.. watch this...

[Wobbly]

Oh Milo is gorgeous! I would be totally delighted to get that performance from Jarrah, she'd be all about winding herself around the judges legs trying to get pats, I would just be an annoyance on the end of the leash obstructing her social aspirations. And duck poo is second only in awesomeness to cat poo in Jarrah's books. If only rolling in duck poo were requirements for trials, we would be champions of the whole world. You may view this as a poor performance, but to me Milo is the very model of a calm gentleman, the fact he hasn't run off to lick the judge and roll in poo is actually rather inspirational from where I am standing. XD

Well I have replaced my husband-tripod with a paint tin-tripod, I get far better focus from the paint tin than the husband, so i got a longer vid this time. XD

We're doing a little better. I know Nekhbet has her head in her hands in despair at the technique & treat rate - my brain goes out the window on camera, hopefully this effect will recede soon. Fading the hand signal for heeling here, it's kind of working, sort of, a bit, maybe. A shame my hair covers all her nice cheek in hand pocket hand efforts when she's sitting. Big reward there with the tug for maintaining focus while the hoons do burnouts next to our house, I was really happy with that bit at least, sustained focus is my main issue atm really (no lickable judges or duck poo on the balcony to distract her mercifully, or this would be a whole different vid), so I ended it there.

"Out" is a new behaviour, Steve K9 pro fixed it for me (taught with no corrections!) I've graduated from an instant tug reward for an out to a more low key food reward now, I could stop rewarding every time now really, over rewarding known behaviours is a really, really bad habit of mine, shamefully on display here, she's good at "out' these days, immediate rewards for it should be random now I think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dO1QxDtUWk&feature=youtu.be

OK dental appt shortly, so no more videos for till my face looks normal again.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Wobbly

[paddles]

awesome Wobbly... I'd love to get to Sydney to see Steve... I also "overtreat" I also talk way to much... (and change command words... "Down, Down, Drop, will you drop already....) lol....

[BC4ME]

I don't reward in position and I dont use food with my toy driven dog really aside from teaching some basic back end awareness in the beginning and sometimes for shaping new things, I think one of the best thing about dogs is there are so many different ways we can train them. I love training heelwork it's one of my favourite exercises and there are so many different styles and ways to train it.

[Wobbly]

I'm so glad you don't reward in position huski, because I can do it with food, but I find it impossible with tug, and tug is a more valuable reward from Jarrah's perspective. I will worry less about that now. XD

Yeah Paddles if you do get a chance to get an appt with Steve, he is a genius. I am only still just starting to understand some of the stuff he told me about Jarrah's lack of out and the way she learns (so many months later, I am a bit slow sometimes). Also you get to meet Huski there, and you get to play a little game of tug with Steve's dog Venom, who is beautiful. XD

ETA And I really can take ages to understand stuff. When I first saw Steve about dog aggression (along a whole bunch of other problems I had) 5 years ago, he told me how to handle it. And following his advice worked beautifully ofc, but he only had time in that appt to cover the stuff I absolutely needed to do (there was lots), so it's only now, 5 years later, that I have started really looking into operant conditioning and learning theory that I begin to understand the theory behind exactly why all the stuff he told me to do works. I now know I have, used the premack principle to operantly condition Jarrah to be calm and polite around other dogs. XD

ETA Again, I may be away for a bit, lots of medical stuff going on, I'm all good, don't worry, but I need to do some stuff to ensure I remain so!

Edited June 18, 2013 by Wobbly

[Weasels]

I think rewarding in position is important if you are having position issues. If you aren't you can probably be a bit more lenient :) I have one dog who forges and drifts away and another who crowds and lags (lucky me ) so rewarding in position with them is important. I suppose it also depends how specific you want to be about position. When I am using toys I try to make sure the toy goes the opposite direction to where the problem is, as Ness said. I am also trying out getting a hand-target in position before throwing or tugging, as a sort of an exclamation mark that "here is correct!".

Edited June 18, 2013 by TheLBD

[Wobbly]

Yeah I can do position rewarding with food OK (sort of, I am getting better) there are so many mechanical skills to learn! But it's hard with tug for me. i am going to make up some of Sheenas treats, they're healthy so i am happy to use as many as Jarrah can maintain interest in. XD

I get such a kick out of how much she enjoys this training. "D Wish I had started it years ago.

[huski]

I think reward placement can be really important, personally I use rewarding in position rarely for times when I want my dog calmer and then when I want more drive and arousal I release to the reward. I might have a magnet ball on my back or a tug on the ground or a toy i pull out of my pocket or i just have in my hand. Getting OT now! plenty of people only ever reward in position and have nice heelwork, it is cool how we can train it so many different ways! :) Sometimes I hear people saying things like you should only ever reward in position for heelwork and I don't personally think that has to be the case. I love training heelwork but it can be an easy exercise for dogs to find boring.

ETA: I also think it comes down to the dogs understanding of the exercise. When I release my dog to the reward in heelwork, she knows that it was the position she was in that was the key that opened the door to getting the reward, so where I reward her after the release word can become irrelevant.

Edited June 18, 2013 by huski

[Wobbly]

I just do my best for reward placement. I notice I am getting more competent over time, which I am happy with, as with most of the skills for this kind of work, improving slowly with practise.

I try to make the heel work fun for her, you can only see me shuffling in the vid, not enough space to run, but we do some very fast paces as well as very slow, she likes the novelty. I got pretty lucky with Jarrah motivation wise, she really enjoys her training sessions. I am happy with the lower drive you see here for this home environment - both the focus she has to hold before she gets the tug, and the out to stop her building up too much steam both cap her drive at a nice level for me to learn to work with. With the previously frenzied heights she used to reach in frisbee swim/fetch/tug, I could get a great recall but couldn't work with it for more than that, she'd get too over stimulated. I have been learning in Denise's course to make my reinforcement just a notch more attractive than the environment we're in, so she has a choice and chooses work. I'm really happy with her focus here, she's on the job the whole time, didn't even appear to notice the hoons screeching brakes. Way too many rewards for stuff she knows, I am rewarding sits there! That's ridiculous, I am such a sucker. Outside the house I have to ramp it up a bit to match the environment. Put fetch in, let her tug longer and use a nice bitey surface like french linen or leather.

Looking at how I have to move in that video, Jarrah just really isn't tall enough to make pocket hand as useful to me as it is to those of you with taller dogs, and a target stick would omit the physical contact aspect. I don't really want her nose pointing straight up like the Shepherds heel, she had a neck injury last winter, and it's a harder position to hold for a dog shaped like her. And bending down is harder position for me to hold too. I do need to give this some more thought.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Wobbly

[JulesP]

What is your aim in teaching this Wobbly? Focus? to get pivots?

If you heeled like Denise in Victoria half the judges would ping you for crowding! I have been playing with it for pivots the last couple of days and it has been working well. I don't need physical contact with the dogs as they are watching the hand and following it without the contact.

I reward in position. I might then throw a second bit of food but there is always some reward in position.

[paddles]

I think I'm missing something here... when you all talk about rewarding in position? you mean, when the dog is where you want him to be? ie heel? (beside leg) so for instance (talking about milo) I spent a long time teaching him to come into heel (I lift my hand, say heel, and he swings in so that his head is between my hand and leg. this was done with food, over small incriments. I have to a lesser extent done the same thing with flash.. so from what some of you are saying, you don't reward this behaviour (anymore? ever?) with milo, this is something that periodically is done as a training exercise on it's own, but as a rule, a signal that we are going to begin heelwork training. Can I ask you, Huski, Wobbly to break down a bit what you mean?

On a positive note, all people with short dogs... I could call this boob hand, not pocket hand, which really isn't comfortable, and if I forget to change before I go out, the slobber down the side of my breast gets some weird looks...

[Weasels]

Paddles I'm sure the others will answer too but rewarding out of position is generally a side-effect of using toys rather than food. So for eg. the dog heels nicely, you mark and release, and the dog leaps out and gets a game of tug.

I reward mostly with food (in position) but use both tug and ball as a higher value reward (ball being the ultimate). Problem being (especially with tug) if you always release in front of you the dog will usually work slightly too far forward out of anticipation. I am extra conscious therefore to mix it up with the ball and throw it away from where the dog is anticipating, with tug it's harder but if I kind of spin on the spot after release it helps keep 'em guessing :)

Edited June 18, 2013 by TheLBD

[paddles]

Paddles I'm sure the others will answer too but rewarding out of position is generally a side-effect of using toys rather than food. So for eg. the dog heels nicely, you mark and release, and the dog leaps out and gets a game of tug.

I reward mostly with food but use both tug and ball as a higher value reward (ball being the ultimate). Problem being (especially with tug) if you always release in front of you the dog will usually work slightly too far forward out of anticipation. I am extra conscious therefore to mix it up with the ball and throw it away from where the dog is anticipating, with tug it's harder but if I kind of spin on the spot after release it helps keep 'em guessing :)

ah, I get it now.. I mainly use food, so he tends to reward in position I guess, unless I'm practicing coming into position? in which case I throw the food?