Teaching Hind Leg Awareness

[corvus]

Nah, mate. That's backwards for so many reasons. You should sign up for chicken camp. It's only a few weeks away now.

I've taught a dog to play a piano, a horse to bow and almost roll over plus work on just verbals, and I have ferrets that come when called out of warrens. I know the concepts :)

Is that all you've got? ;) Want a trick challenge?? After I've handed in my thesis, though. Things are kind of intense at the moment.

No dog was born to stare at your treat hand, it's part of how they've been trained and raised and I see it in dogs that have had treats overused as the only reinforcer they have come to understand.

I didn't say he was staring at my treat hand. Mostly he was staring at my face, which I didn't teach him as it happens. I'm happy to agree to disagree. I live with these dogs and I'm telling you Kivi is not a noticer. Noticing is Erik's super-power, though. It's not surprising one had trouble noticing external stimuli during training and the other did not.

Get the mouth shut, the body still, and just watch and click. You'll see the difference in training success. And nothing is better for fine-scale stuff for that exact reason. I swear I'm a better trainer with a clicker in my hand.

See that to me is not dog training - you might as well develop a programmed machine to do it for you.

I did. :laugh: It's unquestionably effective if you can get the reinforcement and the reinforcement rate right. Just like training in person. It's much easier to train with a clicker than it is with a machine, though, trust me. I don't use a clicker for most of our tricks because I'm a lazy trainer. I wave my hands around and throw some directional cues in and Erik does the rest. Kivi is a fair bit harder, and I use the clicker more with him. He likes it clean and clear. The doves are harder again and only get the clicker. They don't get body language except to feel threatened by most of it. You can turn luring into a bit of an art if you're that way inclined. I've spent entire training sessions teaching my dogs how to move in response to a lure or target, particularly backwards. It's worth it IMO. I love being able to wave my hands around and get a neat trick.

Wobbly, chicken camp is July 5th and 6th in Sydney. Other dates for SA and Tas. Might be a QLD one. There is guinea pig camp as well, with Roger Abrantes. See here: http://www.apdt.com.au/news-and-events/apdt-member-events.html

[Nekhbet]

Is that all you've got? ;) Want a trick challenge?? After I've handed in my thesis, though. Things are kind of intense at the moment

I work a full time job and my own business every other spare moment, I'd love to sit about and teach animals novelty tricks for the sake of it but I would rather channel them into working activities for what time I do have.

I know birds are threatened by body language, hence the point of the chicken workshops forcing you to use food and markers only. Good for the average person to learn some patience but a dog and a chicken are two very different animals. They way they think, their behavioral reactivity and wiring is totally different - one is predator the other is prey.

Conversely if people want a good exercise throw a few small objects on a table and have one person as the 'dog' the other as the trainer. See if the trainer can train the other to do what they ultimately want to achieve.

[corvus]

Actually, I don't think there's a SA chicken camp this year, but there is a WA one that is on chaining.

I've actually been writing about the human element of dog training all week, and even talked to some psychologists about it early this week, so it occurs to me I should make a comment on the clicker vs human interaction argument - is it an argument? I've watched lots of dogs learn by machine and by human trainer in the last few years and I think the idea that a clicker is devoid of human interaction is a misconception. This is dogs we are talking about. They are experts at small details and if they've had any training they know where to look for those details. There is plenty of back-and-forthing going on between someone holding a clicker and a dog responding to it. All a clicker does on that front is encourage people to clean up their signals. When I was clicker training Erik this week to step his rear right foot back, he was watching me very carefully and responding to minute shifts in my balance, gaze, and hand movements. A tiny flick of my fingers would get him moving. A purist might say even that much extra signalling is superfluous and messy, and I can respect that. There is nothing bad about clean signals. I know that much from watching the dogs with the machine. I had trouble in my study keeping the machine even devoid of human interaction. Basically you only have to be in the same room and they try to make you a part of the training. The exception was pound dogs. Some were so clued in they would go mental jumping on you if you so much as glanced at them, but a few seemed to not realise people had anything to offer. I think the notion that using a clicker to mark and cutting down on all other signals could take the human element out of training ignores the fundamental nature of dogs.

[BC Crazy]

I have a clicker & have used it on occasion with success but I don't feel all that comfortable using it. I seem to be fumbling about with it, trying to get treats out etc & I also feel a bit removed from the actual moment of training my dogs as I do have a personnal need to engage/speak to them. This is just me though. So I do have a preference to verbally mark.

[corvus]

At the end of the day it's just behaviour. You don't need to chatter or gesture to get it and it's not better or worse if you do. Dogs will respond to clear communication however you produce it.

[BC Crazy]

Corvus, it's with great pride that I can let you know that I am as of 6 months ago, a reformed "chatterer" LOL. And the difference it has made to my guys training progress is amazing.

Poor dogs, I used to verbally bash their ears off thinking I was encouraging/helping them, NOT.

Now I am barely saying anything apart from verbal markers & "good". I am finding training alot more enjoyable for us now :)

[Wobbly]

The chattering depends on what you're after I think. Same with rates of reinforcement, depends on what you are trying to acheive, the Leslie McDevitt school of one treat a second makes the dog really keen to focus on you, or the Denise Fenzi school of giving far less reinforcement makes that reinforcement you do give far more valuable. A lot of the things you guys are arguing - Nekhbet & Corvus- I think are not the polar opposites they appear, it's just different ways of training depending on what you want to acheive. I have read accounts by people I really respect (McDevitt & Fenzi in the case of rate of reinforcement) that support both sides of the argument.

Chicken camp I would see as incredibly valuable, clicking can be a bit of tough mechanical skill to juggle and personally I have difficulty in raising criteria effectively, I think I go too slow on that. A chicken & a dog are not the same psychologically, but the trainer of dog and the trainer of a chicken ARE the same psychologically - a human. Stuff like mechanical skills, criteria, timing - all these are skills the human needs, irrespective of what species is being trained. I am going to look into chicken camp and try to juggle my commitments, I think it'd be very valuable for me, I like the clicker, it's been very effective for me, but my skill with it needs work, have to say voice IS so much easier for the novice.

Oh and I love chicken camp's sub heading "Poultry in Motion" XD

Edited June 14, 2013 by Wobbly

[BC Crazy]

I haven't heard of Fenzi Wobbly?? Off to google that later... I am of the same opinion concerning clicker's, I think they are very effective. OH picked mine up in the kitchen the other night not knowing

what it was & clicked it. Both my guys came scrambling down from lounging in front of the TV & sat at his feet. He asked me, "What the hell is this little thing, magic?" :laugh:

I too have to improve my user skills with it though & agree the voice seems much easier for me too atm.

Poultry in Motion :laugh:

[Wobbly]

O BC crazy, check out Denise Fenzi's youtube channel, she's awesome. She will be in Wyee doing a seminar on Jul 13 & 14, there is a thread in this subforum with all the links and info. "D

[RiverStar-Aura]

The only real issue I have with clicker training is that I don't have enough hands. This is why I've struggled with loose leash walking too -- trying to co-ordinate clicker or leash in hand with distributing treats. I'm quite unco!

Zeus I'm lucky with. He loves learning so much that if he's in the middle of a trick and a dog comes over, he gives a warning bark in their direction as if to say 'go away please. I'm learning'. It's cute.

Along with the standing on things/leg awareness, I'm working on turning my hand signals into just verbal cues. We've so far mastered sit, drop and roll over but there's still at least 10 more to go. It's a learning curve more so for me as I've only ever been able to train to hand signals.

[BC Crazy]

Same here RiverStar Aura. I too don't seem to be able to juggle the leash, treats & clicker either. I watch other really experienced people train & they make

it look so easy, poetry in motion & I'm like all over the shop in comparison I think or that is how it feels at times How cute your Zues is. He must just really love to learn :)

[corvus]

I was up half the night thinking about a good-natured trick challenge. I'm afraid the idea has filled me with energy. Does anybody else want to play? Just for fun. Because there's so much variation in dogs and so on there would never be a clear winner. I just thought it would be fun to see what we can do if we manage our time very strictly. I'm thinking 5x2-minute training sessions over a week working towards one predetermined trick and we can video it and see how far everybody gets? Clicker, marker, lure, whatever you like. We could probably learn a lot from each other's attempts. I am extremely busy atm, but I can probably spare 2 minutes a day. Any takers?

Glad to hear you have found less chatter more productive, BC Crazy! :)

Wobbly, you're absolutely right. It's not really even an argument IMO. McDevitt and Fenzi are coming at training from different ends, so both approaches have their uses and times when they are most appropriate. I would have been at the Fenzi workshop with a dog except that I'll be in Victoria instead. :p

I had trouble figuring out how to juggle the clicker when I started training doves. I wanted them to interact with one hand, so I had to hold the seed cup and the clicker in the other. To make it more challenging, the doves are very stimulated by shiny yellow buttons. If they get even a peek of it they want to peck it. So I had to hide it. A tongue click works if I left the clicker behind, but I dunno, I just like the clicker better for some reason. Less variable or something. It took about a week to get clicking with the doves nice and smooth.

[sheena]

I was up half the night thinking about a good-natured trick challenge. I'm afraid the idea has filled me with energy. Does anybody else want to play? Just for fun. Because there's so much variation in dogs and so on there would never be a clear winner. I just thought it would be fun to see what we can do if we manage our time very strictly. I'm thinking 5x2-minute training sessions over a week working towards one predetermined trick and we can video it and see how far everybody gets? Clicker, marker, lure, whatever you like. We could probably learn a lot from each other's attempts. I am extremely busy atm, but I can probably spare 2 minutes a day. Any takers?

Glad to hear you have found less chatter more productive, BC Crazy! :)

Wobbly, you're absolutely right. It's not really even an argument IMO. McDevitt and Fenzi are coming at training from different ends, so both approaches have their uses and times when they are most appropriate. I would have been at the Fenzi workshop with a dog except that I'll be in Victoria instead. :p

I had trouble figuring out how to juggle the clicker when I started training doves. I wanted them to interact with one hand, so I had to hold the seed cup and the clicker in the other. To make it more challenging, the doves are very stimulated by shiny yellow buttons. If they get even a peek of it they want to peck it. So I had to hide it. A tongue click works if I left the clicker behind, but I dunno, I just like the clicker better for some reason. Less variable or something. It took about a week to get clicking with the doves nice and smooth.

Two things I have been working on this week...(using the clicker) walking backwards from the other side of the room to between my legs & standing for longer on back legs. She can now reverse pretty much in a straight line from about 4 feet away & stand on her back legs for about two seconds. I only train for a couple of minutes using a clicker & a small handful of kibble. Just about everything I have taught my girl for dancing, tricks & agility, I have shaped her with a clicker. Playing LAT with her was the most awesome.

Maybe we should start a new thread for this, so as not to hijack the original :)

Edited June 15, 2013 by sheena

[BC Crazy]

Yes, I was just thinking the same thing Sheena. This thread seems to have just taken off. All of us just super keen to learn I guess :)

[PAX]

We have a facebook page called Awesome pup challenge, a new training trick challenge is set every Wednesday, lots of fun:)

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/137203313139206/

I was up half the night thinking about a good-natured trick challenge. I'm afraid the idea has filled me with energy. Does anybody else want to play? Just for fun. Because there's so much variation in dogs and so on there would never be a clear winner. I just thought it would be fun to see what we can do if we manage our time very strictly. I'm thinking 5x2-minute training sessions over a week working towards one predetermined trick and we can video it and see how far everybody gets? Clicker, marker, lure, whatever you like. We could probably learn a lot from each other's attempts. I am extremely busy atm, but I can probably spare 2 minutes a day. Any takers?

Glad to hear you have found less chatter more productive, BC Crazy! :)

Wobbly, you're absolutely right. It's not really even an argument IMO. McDevitt and Fenzi are coming at training from different ends, so both approaches have their uses and times when they are most appropriate. I would have been at the Fenzi workshop with a dog except that I'll be in Victoria instead. :p

I had trouble figuring out how to juggle the clicker when I started training doves. I wanted them to interact with one hand, so I had to hold the seed cup and the clicker in the other. To make it more challenging, the doves are very stimulated by shiny yellow buttons. If they get even a peek of it they want to peck it. So I had to hide it. A tongue click works if I left the clicker behind, but I dunno, I just like the clicker better for some reason. Less variable or something. It took about a week to get clicking with the doves nice and smooth.

[BC Crazy]

Covus, I would like to join in on the trick challange but I am not computer savy & I haven't learnt to up load pic's as yet. As soon as I get someone to show me & can get my head around it, I'm in :)

[Wobbly]

A trick challenge, haha I am way behind you there proficiency wise, I still think getting an "out" on a tug toy is a pretty good trick. XD But I think hind leg awareness tricks would be good since that's the thread title. I will try, my clicker skills are a bit abysmal so far though, very definitely still at an early learning stage here.

I'm still working on getting Jarrah to be more operant in respect to offering behaviours for clicker shaping, I have used too much luring in conjunction with the clicker, and used it extensively to pin down heel position, so when i produce the clicker Jarrah thinks it's all about intently watching me, awaiting a cue or a lure. Oops. I need to go back to boxes, and chicken camp.

FOr the leash juggling I just use a really long leash and tread on the end of it, or tie it. Which leaves juggling the clicker and the treats, so instead of dropping the leash, I spill treats, effectively teaching Jarrah to disconnect for a ground snuffle mid training session. Derp.

[BC Crazy]

Wobbley, & I'm so far behind you with my 2 guys, I'm out of sight LOL.

I am still trying to my boy's body awarness happening as he moves like a log & get him heeling with some regularity. And my girl needs to chill pill & stop trying to steal all the treats like they are going to run out , giggle :)

[sheena]

We have a facebook page called Awesome pup challenge, a new training trick challenge is set every Wednesday, lots of fun:)

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/137203313139206/

I was up half the night thinking about a good-natured trick challenge. I'm afraid the idea has filled me with energy. Does anybody else want to play? Just for fun. Because there's so much variation in dogs and so on there would never be a clear winner. I just thought it would be fun to see what we can do if we manage our time very strictly. I'm thinking 5x2-minute training sessions over a week working towards one predetermined trick and we can video it and see how far everybody gets? Clicker, marker, lure, whatever you like. We could probably learn a lot from each other's attempts. I am extremely busy atm, but I can probably spare 2 minutes a day. Any takers?

Glad to hear you have found less chatter more productive, BC Crazy! :)

Wobbly, you're absolutely right. It's not really even an argument IMO. McDevitt and Fenzi are coming at training from different ends, so both approaches have their uses and times when they are most appropriate. I would have been at the Fenzi workshop with a dog except that I'll be in Victoria instead. :p

I had trouble figuring out how to juggle the clicker when I started training doves. I wanted them to interact with one hand, so I had to hold the seed cup and the clicker in the other. To make it more challenging, the doves are very stimulated by shiny yellow buttons. If they get even a peek of it they want to peck it. So I had to hide it. A tongue click works if I left the clicker behind, but I dunno, I just like the clicker better for some reason. Less variable or something. It took about a week to get clicking with the doves nice and smooth.

I've joined...thanks for the link. If no-one else is going to start it on DOL, then maybe I will :laugh:

[SammieS]

We have a facebook page called Awesome pup challenge, a new training trick challenge is set every Wednesday, lots of fun:)

https://www.facebook...37203313139206/

This thread is awesome! I have so much to say and not enough time because i'm at work... I'll join the FB group when I get home.

I recently free shaped my eldest Frenchie Asti to stand on a giant tennis ball and pat my youngest Frenchie Angus on the head! :laugh: (well the patting him on the head was a coincidence when I took the photo) but it was all free shaped from a Clicks and Tricks class we attended. Free shaping seems to make them 'think' more than they ever did! Its fabulous to see them learning and trying new thing and offering good behaviour (instead of being the poor reactive girl that Asti is outstide the safety of our house).