Teaching Hind Leg Awareness

[RiverStar-Aura]

As something new to work on with Zeus, I've purchased some cheap melamine bowls from K Mart to see if I can get him to balance/stand on them. The problem I'm having getting him to even place a foot on them because he keeps thinking I'm telling him to 'push it', a command my brother taught him whilst I was away one week. He ends up batting the bowl with his paws sending it flying across the lawn and poor Zeus is just not understanding what I want.

Is there a command I can use (I'm thinking 'balance') that you would suggest and how do I go about getting him to balance on them? Should I start by placing his paw on them?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think I'd start with something bigger - like a phone book wrapped in a towel and then work my way down from there...

You need to get him to understand the concept of putting his feet on the thing...

Frosty has done a lot of work with stacks of phone books and swivel chairs (go figure - coffee club at one of the local ovals and their ginger nut bikkies - sigh).

So anything I put in front of her - she will try to put her feet on... So we did pretty well with lunch boxes and cake tins and then those fitball rubber half balloon things. She'd never seen those before that day.

[sheena]

Yes...start with something bigger & heavier so it wont move so easily & then scale it down. Are you using a clicker to shape the behaviour ????

[RiverStar-Aura]

Ah okay. I'd not even thought of starting with something bigger -- I can be a bit stupid like that! :laugh:

I don't use a clicker because he's a very smart and quick learner, but I have introduced to him so he understands what it means. I've just really never needed to use it with him.

[The Spotted Devil]

I start them on a phone book wrapped in gaffa tape.

Maybe start with some free shaping (using a box) to get her to offer different behaviours?

[Agility Dogs]

Another approach would be to put them all in a box where he can't flick them. Get the behaviour you want and then generalise it outside the box. I like the idea of the heavier item too.

[sheena]

Ah okay. I'd not even thought of starting with something bigger -- I can be a bit stupid like that! :laugh:

I don't use a clicker because he's a very smart and quick learner, but I have introduced to him so he understands what it means. I've just really never needed to use it with him.

If he is a smart learner & he understands the value of the clicker, then you would be amazed at just how much smarter he can get & how quickly he can learn using a clicker to shape. :)

You don't introduce the cue word until you have the behaviour & he understands it 100%...then introduce your cue word.

Edited June 13, 2013 by sheena

[BC Crazy]

I have just started inducing the phone book method with my 2. Sonny my 5 year is a tad slower at grasping the concept than my 2 year old girl, who already has her 2 front feet on the book

after 2 , 3 min lessons Sonny was lying down on the book at first but now is sometimes touching it with his feet. I am just shaping/rewarding any front foot touch of the book.

At this early stage their foot or feet don't have to stay there & I haven't uttered a word to them apart from 'Yes' which is my verbal marker.

I have recently realised my boy is much more relaxed & in a better frame of mind to learn something new after he has been for a walk or treadmill for 15 mins or so just to expel some energy

before we begin :)

[Nekhbet]

use a combo of luring and have a flat collar on him. Lure him with the food, hold the collar or have a short leash attached just so he cant suddenly plough his head down or run off. You don't pull the dog at all it's just there to prevent him shooting off or making a mistake that makes him ignore you. If you want him to balance on things use a bigger target he can acutally get on, I use a small wooden skid pallet at dog school for the beginners. Lure him on, say 'place' or whatever else you want to use while he's on it and ONLY give the reward when the dog holds the position, not when still following your hand. Then remember to give a command like 'off' etc to let the dog know it can get down. Helps the dog stay there without having to then later introduce the stay command.

[BC Crazy]

Nekhbet, I was hoping you might post on this thread as I pretty much always benefit from your advice. Thank you.

I have been having trouble with my 2 holding position. They are pinching treats out of my hand sometimes as I am trying to lure them.

So no treats, just lure into position first then once they hold it, treat. Also teach "off" command as well.

My girl is so food orientated she seems to just be obsessed with my hands all the time during a training session. I find I am always trying to slow the whole lesson down which is a constant struggle.

Edited June 14, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Nekhbet]

nothing wrong with luring but you have to hide the treat in your hand properly. I let the dog lick the hand when starting because proximity is very important to keep the dogs attention. Move your hand slowly, keep them licking, no erratic movement or you lose the dog and it cant follow.

If you want an easy way, close your hand into a fist but with your thumb on top like this

hide the treats in your hand, the dog can lick your fingers to get the taste but cannot pinch the treats. Simply lift your thumb to dispense a treat straight into the dogs mouth and you wont drop it either. The dogs also tend to stop biting/snapping because licking is encouraged.

It's also why I put a hand/lead on the dogs collar. When the dog is lured in position keep your hand on the collar in place so there is no pressure. When the dog goes to move out of position or pull towards your hand it will create pressure, dogs want to move away from pressure so put themselves back into position. Just move your hand an inch away from the dogs nose, when the dog freezes in position and stops pulling towards your hand then mark YES - give treat. It's the magical missed step in luring which is why majority of people have so much trouble with weaning their dogs off treats/hand movement. The dog is ONLY rewarded for holding position and not following your hand, and you help them understand that by holding them with leash/hand. Once the dog stops following your hand you then move your hand to your face so the dog learns that the command includes a focal component.

I have been having trouble with my 2 holding position.

Failure usually comes from lack of feedback at critical moments. When we teach a command to a dog like sit, drop etc we leave it open ended. So we usually let the dog decide how long it wants to stay there UNLESS we add a stay command, then we doubly confuse the dog because we allow it to wriggle around on the spot just not make foreward motion.

I use a command to break position/change position. If they only ever get up when told you will find they understand that breaking the position is actually a failure and not just something to do because you left the behavior open ended. Either use a release word or make them recall to you.

You need to give the dog signals to show it's on the right track. I use 'good dog' while the dog is exhibiting behavior to 1)hold focus and drive level and 2) give the dog a constant feedback its on the right track during learning. So eg I say SIT, dog sits and I walk side to side, while dog is sitting perfectly still and looking at me I keep saying 'good dog', return to dog, release and reward. You wean down how often you say good dog as the dog learns :)

Another thing to remember is to train the dog to ignore movement of all kinds before inrtoducing just distance. The dog has to be totally comfortable in it's position and proofed, it's why when you break the pattern of how far/where/how you move they break position. If you cant do star jumps, carrying on and yelling 3 feet away from your dog when its holding position then dont go marching half way across a field. Remember dogs are pattern orientated ;)

The biggest problem these days is lack of feedback and dead air. Dogs cannot productively deal with it when learning and particularly drivey or nervous dogs get distracted very quickly if you say absolutely nothing. Then we get shitty with the dog and training goes pffffft downhill. I also use 'uh uh' when the dog makes a mistake. NOT harshly, just a quick 'sorry you stuffed up lets try again'. When the dog realises they messed up and you let them know, my god do they work harder ;)

My girl is so food orientated she seems to just be obsessed with my hands all the time during a training session.

It's because you have not set parameters for her behavior. You reward her for not focussing on you, plus they have also learned to steal when they try hard enough so the herding part of the brain stares hard at the reward. You just need to now put firm parameters on when they get rewarded and the dogs focus will change. If they only get reward for complience + focus where do you think they will stare? It's why I don't teach a 'watch' command, because it makes it an 'extra' behavior instead of a base standard of performance at all times. Food is the bridge to help you and the dog connect, it's something the dog inherently understands as rewarding, it should not be 100% of the whole reward process. You need to be rewarding too and you do that through interaction, praise, contact and good feedback.

A good exercise to start is quite light, call the dogs name and hold the treat next to your eye. When the dog looks into your eyes, mark and treat, then repeat. It's quick, easy for the dog to win and they get it quite quickly that you want focus on command. Remember the name is simply an attention command, when you call their name it means pay attention and focus on me :)

Edited June 14, 2013 by Nekhbet

[Weasels]

RSA - nothing to add on the previous advice, but I've found it handy to have two different commands, one for "front paws on" and one for "all paws on" (imaginatively, "two paws" and "four paws" ).

Edited June 14, 2013 by TheLBD

[corvus]

One of my dogs had a lot of trouble with this. In the end I got him doing it by using logs. Kind of like this:

This is Erik some years ago, who has always been uber body aware, but even just getting Kivi to put his front feet on took a bit of work. I had tried with phone books and boxes before, but the log seemed to be the right height that he would step up and over but not so low that he would just step over without putting any feet on. And he couldn't walk around. Once he learnt the concept from the log games he was able to generalise to the situations he'd had a lot of trouble with before. Sometimes it's just about figuring out exactly what the problem is and setting up your training session to simply prevent it or at least stack all the odds in your favour. Kivi's problem was mostly he was so focused on my face and hands he never noticed the box. The running off thing is the same. If you think they might do it and you don't want them to, don't train there. Get your foundations right.

Always stuff their faces with food when they are in the right position. Make sure you have several treats in your hand so you can, ideally. If you're using a marker, mark-treat-mark-treat-mark-treat until you run out of treats, then step back and get them out of the position so they are not in position and not getting rewarded, and it also gives them contrast so they are clearer about what they are being rewarded for. It's all in the rapid delivery. One treat a second at least. Both my dogs will gather very quickly that it's a stationary behaviour if they are getting rapid fire treats in position. I lure for motion as well, and just pick my moments to mark and reward, usually when they are in a position I particularly like that has set them up well for continuing on with the behaviour after being rewarded.

High reward rates usually mean less hunting around obsessively for food, so less lure obsessing and easier luring. Get that reward rate up. One every few seconds. Mark them before they can do the wrong thing and you'll get the steps you want rather than having to wait for them to offer it. Just aim for smaller steps. Like this: look at perch->click->reward at a half pace closer to perch ->remove reward hand->dog's momentum carries them forward to a full pace->click... The reward for the first step sets the dog up to perform the next.

[BC Crazy]

Nekhbet, a very informative post. So many key points for me. Too many to mention all of them atm. I knew I was making some mistakes with my luring as Stella kept being able to 'win' a treat for free

which isn't the idea at all Very true regarding the way she looks at my hands all the time, just like she is 'eyeing' stock, exactly the same intensity. off to have a short practise, thanks again

for taking the time to help me out.

[sheena]

Loved that Corvus And so please that there is somebody else around other than me, that uses the clicker :laugh: It is such a useful tool, why don't more people try it. My dog will start offering behaviours as soon as she knows I have the clicker...she just loves it so much, that training becomes real fun for her.

Edited June 14, 2013 by sheena

[Nekhbet]

Loved that Corvus And so please that there is somebody else around other than me, that uses the clicker :laugh: It is such a useful tool, why don't more people try it. My dog will start offering behaviours as soon as she knows I have the clicker...she just loves it so much, that training becomes real fun for her.

I use a marker word instead as do the people at my school. For newby handlers its easier to have less things to juggle and I find many are worst on timing when the hand has to do the action then to just say a word. Then they only have to worry about a leash in one hand and a treat/toy in the other. This way too all time is training time :D

Sometimes it's just about figuring out exactly what the problem is and setting up your training session to simply prevent it or at least stack all the odds in your favour. Kivi's problem was mostly he was so focused on my face and hands he never noticed the box.

Thats why I dont use a lot of constant rewarding. The dogs are getting too much for doing too little and they stop thinking because they know they don't have to work hard to get it.

There is an exercise in KNPV that is the article guard, it includes the dog first finding the article, then placing its front paws/body on it and guarding it when someone tries to remove it. To get the dog to recognise the item we place a piece of food on top, lead the dog to it, get it to take the treat off the box which it has now acknowledged and then lure it up onto the box with it's front feet only on it. Hand on the collar helping the dog and food in the other. The dog has to stand up straight and bark to get the reward. You probably don't want your dogs to see the object as something to find and guard but the behavior of staying planted on the object no matter what happens is good to watch. Some people also use a shallow upturned pot/box so the dog definitely cannot be half on/off it's either feet on or feet off.

This lady has some good videos it's a pity she doesnt have the ones right at the start https://www.youtube.com/user/elissacline/videos

[Kavik]

I have been free shaping my puppy since I got him home. Lots of foundation stuff and body awareness stuff - perchwork, balance discs, 4 feet in a box, on a dog bed (my substitute for a table :laugh: ), front feet on a kids chair, through a hoop, around the laundry basket.

Front feet on perch was pretty easy, getting the back feet on the balance discs is more challenging (I have front feet on one, and back feet on another). I am using a marker word, feed in position multiple times then give release cue and throw a treat to reset so they can come back and try again.

The get on a dog bed has transitioned seamlessly to the low table at agility so far, offered it straight away, happy to stay there until released.

[corvus]

Sometimes it's just about figuring out exactly what the problem is and setting up your training session to simply prevent it or at least stack all the odds in your favour. Kivi's problem was mostly he was so focused on my face and hands he never noticed the box.

Thats why I dont use a lot of constant rewarding. The dogs are getting too much for doing too little and they stop thinking because they know they don't have to work hard to get it.

Nah, mate. That's backwards for so many reasons. You should sign up for chicken camp. It's only a few weeks away now. :) In fact, anyone interested in clicker training and shaping should consider chicken camp. If you come to the Sydney one you can watch me make an ass of myself clicking chickens. It'll be hilarious!

Some dogs are just not big 'noticers' and it's got nothing to do with reinforcement. Otherwise both my dogs would have had the same problem, and they certainly didn't. This trait comes out in everything they do. Kivi had problems with go to mat as well. Again, it just came down to figuring out what the problem was. Taught him to target with different body parts and that made him much more aware of them and therefore what they were on or near. And we did some cue adduction training as well. Teaching Kivi to do more than one thing at a time. :) It was really hard for him. Erik is a natural at this stuff. No remedial training required.

Marker words work fine, but there's merit in teaching people who are used to giving their dogs a lot of signals to just give them one, which is where clickers come in handy. Get the mouth shut, the body still, and just watch and click. You'll see the difference in training success. And nothing is better for fine-scale stuff for that exact reason. I swear I'm a better trainer with a clicker in my hand. ;) The other day I taught Erik to step back with one hind leg only just for something new to do. That's absolutely a clicker job in my mind. At least, it is with an active dog like Erik who is often moving. Clicker trainers like movement. Behaviour is currency!

[Nekhbet]

Nah, mate. That's backwards for so many reasons. You should sign up for chicken camp. It's only a few weeks away now.

I've taught a dog to play a piano, a horse to bow and almost roll over plus work on just verbals, and I have ferrets that come when called out of warrens. I know the concepts :)

Some dogs are just not big 'noticers' and it's got nothing to do with reinforcement.

No dog was born to stare at your treat hand, it's part of how they've been trained and raised and I see it in dogs that have had treats overused as the only reinforcer they have come to understand.

Get the mouth shut, the body still, and just watch and click. You'll see the difference in training success. And nothing is better for fine-scale stuff for that exact reason. I swear I'm a better trainer with a clicker in my hand.

See that to me is not dog training - you might as well develop a programmed machine to do it for you. You need to interact with your dog, touch it, praise it, pat it, help it not just throw food at it. I'm not happy to be a dispenser and neither are my clients, no dog I train is obsessed with treat hands or has trouble understanding fine motions - and we do fine motions at dog school quite precisely as well. They're all handler orientated, happy dogs that want to work for their owners and learn quickly. Interaction also means your dog is happy to learn to rely on you in times of stress, its what your hands and leash/collar help you with. Yes, too much talking is confusing, whereas well placed words they have been conditioned to understand work amazingly well and they are happy. Remember too talking is an interactive human action, it's expressive and what one says can help to keep the handlers emotions and motivation high too. You can't do that with a clicker. Maybe because I tailor myself at a different market and not just my own couple of dogs.

[Wobbly]

When is this chicken camp you speak of? I am very interested. Do we get to eat them after?

I started with a clicker recently, I find it fantastic for fixing a behaviour exactly as I want it, but I have been relying on luring too much and so haven't created a very operant dog yet with regards to spontaneously offering behaviours yet.