Wobbly Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I will keep you in the loop with the stuff we've got planned. :) But don't underestimate what you've been doing - it makes a big difference. Also - come to the rally if you can! https://www.facebook.com/events/647192141964156/ I am really glad that's on again! I am attending a Denise Fenzi seminar with Jarrah on July 13th, I have become interested in obedience lately (we got the perfect breed for obedience!) so sadly can't be at the rally, what a shame. Next one I will though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I will keep you in the loop with the stuff we've got planned. :) But don't underestimate what you've been doing - it makes a big difference. Also - come to the rally if you can! https://www.facebook.com/events/647192141964156/ I am really glad that's on again! I am attending a Denise Fenzi seminar with Jarrah on July 13th, I have become interested in obedience lately (we got the perfect breed for obedience!) so sadly can't be at the rally, what a shame. Next one I will though! No worries- sounds fantastic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Correct Gecko Melz, my day to day life with a Pit Bull type dog is fantastic. I will always do my little bit of local community stuff - people pat her at the cafe and fall in love with her and ask what sort of dog, and I tell them Pit Bull type and that her waggling, licky, sociable, people loving temperament is correct for the breed. On a small local basis it gives people a reality check. Beyond the people I come into contact with though, I am not really sure what can be done? Arguing on the internet, interesting as it is sometimes doesn't really seem to acheive much? Isn't this the most effective way to combat stigma? Kudos to you. She sounds lovely. With regard to the council etc we live in the hub of bogans and bad dogs, bull breeds and not. We're in the west of Melbourne and I walk 20 mins to work each day and I have met one dog that was friendly. A few streets over from us there's two pointer crosses who live in a concrete square penned in by barbed wire and are just the nastiest dogs ever to walk past (understandably so). They have chunks out of the fence the 'pen' is behind which have been patched up repeatedly and the vigour they take to the fence when a person walks past, let alone a dog makes me really worry for the inevitable day they get out. I registered my cats recently and got chatting to the woman at the council who said she was aware of the dogs I was talking about (across the road from a kinder and a Primary school) but despite warnings and visits from the ranger there's nothing much they can do until they eventually escape. Our local park is a lovely big expanse, I trek across it on my walk and often get a growl from an off leash dog as I walk past and more than once have been snapped at. The problem with these owners is that these are valueless dogs. It seems the dogs are a PITA even to the owners and they were probably bought for $50 so the effort involved in feeding them decently, keeping them well housed, vet visits and chips and desexing is all too bloody hard. If you bought a fridge for $50 bucks and it broke, you'd probably chuck it and get a new one, right? Aside from the 'penis extension' theory, I firmly believe that this (and the shoddy breeding) contributes hugely. Cute when they're pups before any real work starts, then they're 'broken' and left in the yard or dumped down the pound. Wherein lies the difference between the people here who own and love Bull Breeds etc and the deadheads who let them languish in yards or the like. Your dogs have value, and are worlds apart from the others and so behave differently. The issue is that the prevalent type is the deadhead bred and owned kind. Edited June 12, 2013 by Steph M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head there, the dogs who have great value to their owners are well managed, those that are of little value are likely to be inadequately socialised, trained, exercised and contained, and that can be very problematic indeed. I am really not sure what the solution is? Pit Bulls are a fad breed, meaning there's a hell of a lot them around, many of those are not bred carefully and that issue is compounded when they are inadequately cared for and managed by idiots. I don't think we will see an end to the current problems until the fad effect dies down. I am not sure how that can be acheived, but I do think that being illegal contributes to the problem of undesirable owners acquiring them. Just recently (in December) Melz, Ruthless and Glen Cooke (Herr Rottweiler on here I think) organised a Bull breeds seminar day, I wish the people who were scared of Bullies or don't like them could have been there. 20 waggling bully dogs all milling round happily together, on leash of course. With good owners they are good dogs, they do take a fair bit more dedication than other breeds though, I guess most larger breeds do - fences that will contain little dogs don't contain bigger dogs, there is a predisposition to dog aggression with Bullies, and I know for myself, as a noob owner, I had to see a professional behaviourist to learn how to manage dog-dog socialisation. That kind of thing - seeing a behaviourist to get the knowledge you need for socialisation, having enough common sense to not trust in an average 6' fence for containment (my dog has never escaped my yard - because she has never had the opportunity, she isn't allowed out without supervision), these things do set the breed apart from some other breeds, and they do need a careful, committed owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) I think it's important to remember not to generalise whole 'types' of dogs, most who we would have absolutely no idea of their genetic heritage. SOME bull breed type dogs require management, careful socialisation, and have some dog reactivity. SOME bull breed type dogs are super easy, great with other dogs, never once even think about escaping and don't require much management at all. Even more are in the middle, and need the general type of management that any other dog would need. You could say the above sentences for most med-large breed dogs. When we're talking about what is overwhelmingly mixed or unknown origin bull breed types we've got to remember there is enormous variability in their behaviour, and we should be judging each dog as an individual. I am very involved in the rescue of bull breed type dogs from Sydney pounds. The dogs we see are typically the dogs that have not been carefully socialised, haven't had any training, are entire and have had pretty average/terrible owners. Yet the vast majority are quite dog social, and aren't any harder to handle or manage than any other med-large sized dog. Some are harder work, absolutely, but I think if I was involved in the rescue of any other med-large sized breed things would be much the same. If these dogs are the ones with the crappy owners and with no training or socialisation, and the vast majority are great dogs, then what of all the others that have great owners (the majority!)? Edited June 12, 2013 by melzawelza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 What I suggest you do, is understand the system, work within the system and formulate a case that appeals to the system. Then again, why would anyone want to listen to me, I'm not an expert on dog attacks or propensity to bite statistics, and what I am discussing is just about politics, and it would appear that most are happy to accept that government, BSL and politics are nothing to do with each other? Seems a strange view to me. Maybe some more people slicing and dicing posts on internet forums, presenting advantageous information as an answer to a question that was never asked and dismissing evrything else will be the seismic event that rocks the seat of power enough to actually reach in to their pockets and do something that works? The first step to solving a problem is admitting that you have one! That is about the wishy-washiest answer you could have come up with. Which system do you refer to? Not the government one surely? Since we should not rely on the government to fix our problems? Now you're implying (without definitely saying so of course, so you cannot be called out on your contradictions) that we should play political games to convince the powers that be that what? What exactly are they going to do? Not enforce the existing leash, micro chipping and containment laws, as would be sensible? No? What then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Yeah Mel that is so true. We have very few real APBTs of known heritage in this country. We have a massive number of Pit Bull types, of widely varying ancestry, I always say "Pit Bull type" to cover that. How varied were the types of Bullies at the seminar - all so very different in structure and temperament. The only dog there who looked like a real APBT was the little fine boned seal girl, remember the one who was primarily concerned with wriggling round on the grass, she was gorgeous, little too - couldn't have been more than 22kgs. You're right there is a huge variety of temperaments, you can't lump them together - what is true for Jarrah is not neccessarily true for Coco. In my experience with Jarrah though - I don't trust my fence as adequate containment and I got professional advice on the dog/dog socialisation front, I really needed that and got great advice, so Jarrah's dog greeting skills are great now. If you are committed you'll go to whatever lengths are required, which may be more or less depending on the dog in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke GSP Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) What I suggest you do, is understand the system, work within the system and formulate a case that appeals to the system. Then again, why would anyone want to listen to me, I'm not an expert on dog attacks or propensity to bite statistics, and what I am discussing is just about politics, and it would appear that most are happy to accept that government, BSL and politics are nothing to do with each other? Seems a strange view to me. Maybe some more people slicing and dicing posts on internet forums, presenting advantageous information as an answer to a question that was never asked and dismissing evrything else will be the seismic event that rocks the seat of power enough to actually reach in to their pockets and do something that works? The first step to solving a problem is admitting that you have one! That is about the wishy-washiest answer you could have come up with. Which system do you refer to? Not the government one surely? Since we should not rely on the government to fix our problems? Now you're implying (without definitely saying so of course, so you cannot be called out on your contradictions) that we should play political games to convince the powers that be that what? What exactly are they going to do? Not enforce the existing leash, micro chipping and containment laws, as would be sensible? No? What then? The Government won't "fix it". They have not been given the correct motivation, strategy or avenue to "Fix it". Do you honestly believe that they see this latest attack as a failure of BSL? Or evidence that the BSL net may need to be cast wider? I think that where you are getting confused is the distinction between government and the system of government. The Government "fixes nothing" until the system of government is engaged and presents both the question and the answer to them that will enable them to gain an advantage. None of the DOL self elected BSL expert panel present a question or answer that would fit that criteria. Anyway, I better go and have that lay down and a hot drink as suggested earlier, as I think it is quite clear that what I have to say is of limited interest to any of the contributors as they know heaps about BSL and how to fix it. Just ask them. Edited June 12, 2013 by Luke GSP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 But I have repeatedly asked you. How do you suggest we engage the system of government? Anti BSL campaigners have been struggling with this question for years now and yet you seem to have all the answers and solutions so go ahead and enlighten me please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yonjuro Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) (...) The bull breed community needs to get it's house in order, stop throwing mud at everyone else and stop trying to fight an argument using facts that in reality do not pertain to the actual concern. In my opinion this is a well reasoned argument. Well done. So how do the two of you suggests this is done? I have previously asked this question of Luke GP (three times actually) What do you suggest we do, that is not illegal? Unfortunately I see no solution while there are so many knuckle heads out there attracted to the Bull breeds. The sad thing is that there are also many great dogs and owners of these type of dogs. I would also be reasonably confident in assuming that members here on this forum are among the best of the best when it comes to bull breeds. Unfortunately the good ones are tarnished by the bad and horrific stories that end up in the media. I understand that responsible owners feel anger at the media's portrayal of bull breeds and say it is unjust. But I am sure if a poodle or labrador mauled someone to death it would certainly make the news. I have seen numerous "news" pieces by bull breed advocate groups in response to any media frenzy, so they do get a say, I am just not sure how many people are prepared to accept the good and the bad. We as the public have nothing to fear from the good but have a right to be concerned with the bad. This is much like the gun control debate, there is nothing to fear from law abiding gun enthusiasts but much to fear from the bad ones. Unfortunately firearms do find their way into the hands of the bad but how many here would like to see our gun control legislation changed to an American model? While this is an extreme example of fear and control, the dilemma of how to keep knuckle heads from owning any dog remains relevant. I am sorry I can't give you a solution, all I can suggest is that calm and rational discussion needs to take place between all concerned parties. Anyway, I am new on this forum and therefore not privy to any individual's particular beef in debates like this one, so my comments are simply my own views on a topic that I find interesting. FWIW I have met some wonderful bull breed dogs and their owners. Edited June 12, 2013 by Yonjuro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Yeah Mel that is so true. We have very few real APBTs of known heritage in this country. We have a massive number of Pit Bull types, of widely varying ancestry, I always say "Pit Bull type" to cover that. How varied were the types of Bullies at the seminar - all so very different in structure and temperament. The only dog there who looked like a real APBT was the little fine boned seal girl, remember the one who was primarily concerned with wriggling round on the grass, she was gorgeous, little too - couldn't have been more than 22kgs. You're right there is a huge variety of temperaments, you can't lump them together - what is true for Jarrah is not neccessarily true for Coco. In my experience with Jarrah though - I don't trust my fence as adequate containment and I got professional advice on the dog/dog socialisation front, I really needed that and got great advice, so Jarrah's dog greeting skills are great now. If you are committed you'll go to whatever lengths are required, which may be more or less depending on the dog in question. You got one of the trickier ones and other Bully owners get what you mean, but I just like to sometimes highlight that there is a huge variation in temperament within even purebred breeds... when we add that we're talking about at least three purebred and their mixes when we say 'bull breed' or 'pit bull type' then there is even more variation. A huge amount of 'pit bull type' dogs don't require special treatment, special behaviourist visits and special fencing. They are easy dogs, easily owned by first time families. Others do, but I think that would be the same for most med-large breeds. If we generalise the behaviour of an entire type into being the same, then we kind of give merit to BSL, you know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Yes it's true especially in terms of the catch all phrase "Pit Bull type" - such a huge variety of temperaments and ancestries. But the thing I have been thinking lately, while breed specific legislation seems to me to make the problem worse (since now we only have BYBs producing the banned dogs, and temperaments are getting dodgier and dodgier in some cases). I tend to think Breed specific education might be helpful? Anyway read excerpts from this thread, tell me what you think: post 39 with the big pic (i am like the poster child for derpness in the pic) http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/249700-dogo-argentino/page__st__30 and the whole last page is funny, but the last 2 posts I mean. http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/249700-dogo-argentino/page__st__60 A public education program isn't too hard to get off the ground, it's definitely needed IMO, doesn't really require political will, although that would help ofc. Concept has legs or no? Interested in your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwp4me Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Does anyone know why these dogs wear collars with spikes? Cool or macho look, maybe? http://www.newenglandgottiline.com/gotti-line-pitbull-breedings-breeder-kennel.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 IDk, prong collars maybe, or just spiky punk rock leather collars? I can't see the spikes you're looking at to know which. If prong it's a training tool - that's a question for the training section of the forum, or if fashion, a question for general discussion or OT. I can tell you that the structure of those dogs is horrific and if you get one you'll spending a lot of time and money at the vets. Structure is closely tied to healthy function, legs at the angle some of the Gotti line "American Bully" dogs are at are a health disaster. ADBA registration? I know of a case where a cat was registered as a APBT on the ADBA books, go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJaq Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) Some LGDs in their country of origin wear spiked collars to stop large predators being able to latch onto their neck during work but those dogs are so stumpy legged (imitating the Dachshund look maybe?) and fat/juiced up on steroids, I'd be surprised if they manage to reach to lick their own ass, not to mention do any kind of real work. I think it is quite safe to say it is for touch guy appearance only as these dogs would only serve in the capacity of lawn ornament. ETA: Oh snap wobbly! Edited June 13, 2013 by BlackJaq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) That kennel link just posted reminds me of this photo... American mess :laugh: Edited June 13, 2013 by DiscoDobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) Yes it's true especially in terms of the catch all phrase "Pit Bull type" - such a huge variety of temperaments and ancestries. But the thing I have been thinking lately, while breed specific legislation seems to me to make the problem worse (since now we only have BYBs producing the banned dogs, and temperaments are getting dodgier and dodgier in some cases). I tend to think Breed specific education might be helpful? Anyway read excerpts from this thread, tell me what you think: post 39 with the big pic (i am like the poster child for derpness in the pic) http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/249700-dogo-argentino/page__st__30 and the whole last page is funny, but the last 2 posts I mean. http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/249700-dogo-argentino/page__st__60 A public education program isn't too hard to get off the ground, it's definitely needed IMO, doesn't really require political will, although that would help ofc. Concept has legs or no? Interested in your thoughts. Definitely agree with breed-specific education... one of the big things I gathered from my time with BADRAP is how much time they spent working with 'Pit bull' type dog owners that may love their pets and mean well, but not know how best to provide for them. When they started 13 years ago they were in the position we are now - in that bully breed dogs and owners were ostracised, people were hiding their dogs away, and didn't have access to the resources that owners of other dogs did. This of course is a recipe for disaster. So they decided to get together pit-specific resources and information that they could give to those owners in a helpful and non-judgemental way. They've pretty much turned around the way Pit bull type dogs are looked at in the Oakland, California area now, 15 years later. They run Pit Ed classes every Sunday that I got to attend which was fantastic, and they only really take on dog-reactive dogs who's owners need help. Many many dog friendly, easy dog owners want to join the class but they tell them just to go do a general obedience class instead, as they're there for the dogs with more challenging behaviours. The thing is though, pretty much all 'breed-specific education' is mostly just 'dog specific' education. There is no behaviour that is unique to any breed of dog. It's all just dog behaviour. Some breeds can be more predisposed as a whole to show that behaviour but there is so much variation even within the breed. So while it's great to put together 'pit bull' type education, and target it at 'pit bull type' owners, it's really not going to be that different or unique to any other breed specific education resource. But it is needed in the climate we're at here in Aus at the moment, much like it was needed back then 13 years ago. Not because Pits are sooooo different from other dogs but simply because they and their owners are often not given the unconditional help or acceptance that others breeds may get, and in places like Victoria people may be hiding their dogs away from the world. Does anyone know why these dogs wear collars with spikes? Cool or macho look, maybe? http://www.newenglandgottiline.com/gotti-line-pitbull-breedings-breeder-kennel.html Ugh, American Bullies. There are some nice ones out there but most are just bloated, badly bred health disasters. These dogs are NOT APBT even if the idiots breeding them like to say they are. A good percentage of American Bully breeders are just douchey and are breeding simply for 'huge heads' and 'tough looking' dogs. The collars are just a fashion statement to add to that. Edited June 13, 2013 by melzawelza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Not a fan of studded collars... and those dogs did not look at all appealing to me at all. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 "WE BREED FOR A COMPLETE PACKAGE OF SHORT COMPACT FRAMES WHICH ARE LOW TO THE GROUND AND HAVE XL HEADS, WIDE CHESTS, EXTREME GIRTH, HEAVY BONE MASS, AND RIPPED UP MUSCLE TONE . BULLIES THAT ARE STRAIGHT AN CORRECT WITH GREAT OVER ALL CONFIRMATION, MOVEMENT AND EXCELLENT TEMPERAMENTS." That does not sound like a healthy mix. Sounds like a brick on toothpicks to me. Also, you can pay by bloody paypal? Are you kidding me?! Not only does that look like the douchiest website out, but you can conduct the entire transaction with minimal contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Check out this page to see some of the horrific dogs American Bully breeders are churning out. Some of them make me want to cry, poor things. Freaky, Exotic Bullies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now