Yet Another Attack

[Luke GSP]

So on one hand you feel that the government are failing but you feel that it should be their job to save your breed type, not yours?

It's the government's job to create laws that will actually do what they are intended to do.

What makes you think that I and every other responsible owner of "targeted" breeds have not being doing everything we can to protect our chosen breeds - both from crazy governments and irresponsible owners?

That in a nutshell is the problem, you feel that it is their job to create laws that will actually do what they are intended to do, however modern politics is about creating laws that give the "public" the "sense" that all is well and the government is on the case.

Passing a new law is cheap and has the required effect (it makes the public feel safer ) actually changing an outcome through proper management, costs money and takes time. No government wants to invest money (a negative on their balance sheet now)in to a scheme that will have an upside that comes to fruition in the next governments term in office.

[Luke GSP]

The issue, Bully breed owners, is that you would appear (unfortunately) to have within your ranks, a high percentage of owners who are irresponsible dog owners

.

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue.

"I am the Majority"

The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog.

The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks.

There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that.

We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum.

The Calgary Model

You didn't take the full scenario did you, you chose to focus in on a single piece that you could counter argue.

[melzawelza]

The issue, Bully breed owners, is that you would appear (unfortunately) to have within your ranks, a high percentage of owners who are irresponsible dog owners

.

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue.

"I am the Majority"

The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog.

The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks.

There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that.

We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum.

The Calgary Model

You didn't take the full scenario did you, you chose to focus in on a single piece that you could counter argue.

The rest of what you posted had no real value, sorry. Regardless, I didn't feel the need to quote it all as my discussion about proven models of dog management addresses all of your 'issues'.

[BlackJaq]

So what do you suggest, Luke GSP, if we are not to rely on the government for a solution

I have even given options to choose from, see my previous post

Methinks you have no solution.... Other than "don't expect the government to do anything about it!"

Edited June 12, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Wobbly]

I just ignore inez now, he/she has repeatedly pointed out that he/she is dosed on Endone and clearly not in a healthy state of mind.

To be frank I believe it may be best for his/her state of mind to stay away from these topics for a while since he/she continues to write themselves into a state of hysteria each time a topic like this comes up.

We might be doing inez a favour by simply ignoring their deranged rantings and once they come back to themselves they may realize that Ednone is addictive and not good for them......

ETA: I also believe it may have been a Neo that attacked him/her but I could be wrong. It is so hard to make sense of their posts, it is easier to just skip them I find.

Agree.

DOL discussion has me thinking that perhaps I am fine with them being illegal. The millions being poured into BSL would be better spent on effective legislation (Calgary model) and we wouldn't have the problems we have now. But the general populace seems to be averse to effective legislation, and that's pretty much that really.

So most likely case scenario from here - they stay illegal, poorly bred BYB specimens of bad temperament predominate, govt resources continue to be poured into pointless yak shaving and people will continue to be bitten.

I'm OK with that, life's a gamble and the powers that be can't and won't address many things that endanger us - walk out your house and you run the gauntlet - drunk drivers, rapists, aggressive drunks, muggers, bad dog owners - the list of baddies out there who may compromise your health and wellbeing is legion. Welcome to life, it's not ever going to be completely safe, and you're in for a rude shock if you had hoped it could be.

[Yonjuro]

The Problem is, that the arguments used are always on "selective evidence"

Everytime there is an attack the Bully type owners go in to overdrive demanding the exact breed, full pedigree and DNA result in an attempt to distance their specific breed from the incident.

Everytime there is an attack the Bully type owners roll out the usual arguments regarding bite propensity and dog attack statistics.

Everytime there is an attack the Bully type owners demand complete accuracy in all details whilst "choosing" which pieces of the story to focus on (The ones that either discredit the identification or show that the person is not a dog fight, attack or Bull breed expert)

These are not the issues, they are fantastic arguments if you wish to turn a thread on a forum to custard but in reality they will do little to counter the public or governments standpoint as in reality they do nothing to address the real issue.

The public do not care about the breed to demonise it, they care about the breed as they are trying to grasp factors that were present at the incident in an attempt to make sense of it and build a library of similarities in a bid to be able to identify a similar situation and avoid it themselves. it is a perfectly natural occurence and it is basic learning for threat avoidance. If people started to get killed by falling trees, they would ask what type of tree, where, conditions etc etc.

The public do not care about bite propensity, they care about the affects of that bite. Very few people are concerned about mosquito bites but lots are afraid and concerned about snake bites. very few are scared about lizard bites, but they would be very bothered about a saltwater crocodile. There is no licencing for water pistols yet machine guns are banned, why do you think that is? are you starting to see the pattern?

The public do not want to have to become dog fight, attack or behavior experts, much the same as they have not learnt how to diffuse or identify an IED, Render safe or identify an AK47. They accept that these things should be kept out of the public domain and hence why should they need to have that knowledge?

The issue, Bully breed owners, is that you would appear (unfortunately) to have within your ranks, a high percentage of owners who are irresponsible dog owners, who buy a dog because it looks tough and like it could easily "Smash" another dog or rip someones arm off, who then seem surprised when their "nanny dog" does exactly what they wanted it to look like it was capable of doing, It mauls, injures or kills another dog or worse still a child or adult human. Now, as we have established that these people are irresponsible, there is no surprise that they will buy the dog from their mate Dave, Daves got an awesome dog that drives round in the back of the ute protecting his tools, yet is like a cuddly toy around his kids, and has just had a litter with one of Daves mates dogs. Then should it's official breed be "banned" try and register it as a similar looking "non banned" breed. Which basically means that they are going to undermine and destroy ALL of the Bull breeds by association.

Now please note, I am not saying that other breeds do not have irresponsible dog owners,(Note read the entire paragraph and process all the factors equally, do not just pick on the factors that can be transferred) very few people buy a cocker spaniel, maltese, whippet, yorkie, scotty, etc etc as a statement of how tough they are. Very few of these dogs are as capable of causing the level of damage as efficiently that a bull breed could, or with the same level of "gameness". (if they could, they would have been used for bear/bull fighting, dog fighting etc instead)Very few of these dogs would be registered as a different breed in an attempt to avoid attention. (hence should one cause harm, what it is registered as is the type of dog that it is)

The bull breed community needs to get it's house in order, stop throwing mud at everyone else and stop trying to fight an argument using facts that in reality do not pertain to the actual concern.

In my opinion this is a well reasoned argument. Well done.

[Dame Aussie]

Totally agree Wobbly

[BlackJaq]

Personally, I have decided to no longer own staffy type bullies, possibly bullies in general, once out current ones go because of the public stigma, mostly. We keep ours well away from the public.

It's a shame I find, but the scaremongering against them just makes even a quick walk through town into a big hassle and God help you if they turn toward a passer-by in an attempt to smell them.

My dog is perfectly well behaved and friendly with people of all ages and other dogs by the way.

My current breed of choice is pretty much invisible to the media and has no stigma that I know of associated with them and my walks with this dog are extremely pleasant and everybody wants to pat this dog instead of crossing the road even though this dog is not interested in meeting strangers (unlike bully girl)... Funny that

[BlackJaq]

(...)

The bull breed community needs to get it's house in order, stop throwing mud at everyone else and stop trying to fight an argument using facts that in reality do not pertain to the actual concern.

In my opinion this is a well reasoned argument. Well done.

So how do the two of you suggests this is done? I have previously asked this question of Luke GP (three times actually)

What do you suggest we do, that is not illegal?

[BlackJaq]

I think the government are failing everybody by insisting on persecuting random pets for their look whilst ignoring people who daily break the laws that actually make sense and failing to enforce said laws. If ANY dog, regardless of breed, is loose, the local council should be required to come get it, rain or shine, night or day and people need to be badgering their councils to actually do this.

Why do you think we are paying registration fees? Rates? All those other taxes and fees? Only to find random dogs and cats shitting on our front lawns in the morning? Heck no, we pay so that we have the right to call the council ranger and that guy comes and picks up the roaming animal. Frankly, I don't care if council pound euth rates triple, if it means roaming animals are kept off the street.

What exactly is it that you expect me to do? Take my rifle out on walks and shoot any bully that is roaming on sight? Find their owners and bash their heads in? Lecture them? Harass them into controlling their dog? What? The only available (read: LEGAL) option is to notify the authorities.

Do you think Joe Bloe BYB bully breeder is going to give a shit if we shun him at dog shows? Or if we whisper about him in dog circles or don't invite him to the neighbourhood bbq?

Luke GSP, please explain what you expect us (me) to do? I would love to do it, as long as it doesn't involve me going to jail

I would like to ask you this again, Luke GSP. Please give an explanation as to what you think we, as bull breed community, should do?

Here you go, I am bumping my post again, for your benefit :)

[Sandra777]

So on one hand you feel that the government are failing but you feel that it should be their job to save your breed type, not yours?

It's the government's job to create laws that will actually do what they are intended to do.

What makes you think that I and every other responsible owner of "targeted" breeds have not being doing everything we can to protect our chosen breeds - both from crazy governments and irresponsible owners?

That in a nutshell is the problem, you feel that it is their job to create laws that will actually do what they are intended to do, however modern politics is about creating laws that give the "public" the "sense" that all is well and the government is on the case.

Passing a new law is cheap and has the required effect (it makes the public feel safer ) actually changing an outcome through proper management, costs money and takes time. No government wants to invest money (a negative on their balance sheet now)in to a scheme that will have an upside that comes to fruition in the next governments term in office.

Thanks for the lecture on modern politics.

As someone else has suggested it seems that all that'd left is to roam the streets with AK47's targeting irresponsible dog owners.

Your argument is bizarre - think you should go have a nice hot cuppa and a lie down.

[Wobbly]

I will always have a Pit Bull type dog now. Current law is unethical so I feel justified in violating it. Were I given the opportunity to give safe harbour to an illegal asylum seeker I would do that too, ethics concerns me more than law. I can advocate for change of these laws I disagree with, but it doesn't really seem to make a dent, I am considering giving up on it. But I will always own a Bully dog.

I do find walks are very pleasant - I take my dog to the local cafe and she gets pats and much love from people, I don't notice much of a stigma out in the world, the biggest stigma I encounter is on DOL, to be perfectly honest.

[melzawelza]

I will always have a Pit Bull type dog now. Current law is unethical so I feel justified in violating it. Were I given the opportunity to give safe harbour to an illegal asylum seeker I would do that too, ethics concerns me more than law. I can advocate for change of these laws I disagree with, but it doesn't really seem to make a dent, I am considering giving up on it. But I will always own a Bully dog.

I do find walks are very pleasant - I take my dog to the local cafe and she gets pats and much love from people, I don't notice much of a stigma out in the world, the biggest stigma I encounter is on DOL, to be perfectly honest.

Don't give up on it... we are making a dent. This is in relation to the USA but I guarantee you we will be where they are sooner rather than later:

http://animalfarmfoundation.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/bsl-trends/

Plus, we need more sensible people arguing the sensible points about this sort of thing.

ETA: I also very rarely experience any stigma when out walking. If I stand still with my dog up at the local shops for ten minutes I'll usually have at least 3 or 4 people stop to love her up (which she does gladly!) and she has the stereotypical red coat/red nose combo.

Edited June 12, 2013 by melzawelza

[Luke GSP]

The issue, Bully breed owners, is that you would appear (unfortunately) to have within your ranks, a high percentage of owners who are irresponsible dog owners

.

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue.

"I am the Majority"

The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog.

The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks.

There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that.

We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum.

The Calgary Model

You didn't take the full scenario did you, you chose to focus in on a single piece that you could counter argue.

The rest of what you posted had no real value, sorry. Regardless, I didn't feel the need to quote it all as my discussion about proven models of dog management addresses all of your 'issues'.

Well if your all sorted then, why are you on here whinging about it? Oh that's right, because your "proven models of dog management" aren't in Australia? And by going on to forums and sitting in your ivory turret, firing arrogance and dismissive comments, as the holder of the all powerful knowledge to solve the worlds problems is helping get the Calgary model implemented how?

[GeckoTree]

The current law 'Pit bull' is an international joke and Bull breeds and pure bred APBT will be in Australia for evermore. The Aus government was told this way back in in 1992 bloomin 21 years ago! It's not possible to outlaw living animals.

[melzawelza]

The issue, Bully breed owners, is that you would appear (unfortunately) to have within your ranks, a high percentage of owners who are irresponsible dog owners

.

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue.

"I am the Majority"

The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog.

The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks.

There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that.

We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum.

The Calgary Model

You didn't take the full scenario did you, you chose to focus in on a single piece that you could counter argue.

The rest of what you posted had no real value, sorry. Regardless, I didn't feel the need to quote it all as my discussion about proven models of dog management addresses all of your 'issues'.

Well if your all sorted then, why are you on here whinging about it? Oh that's right, because your "proven models of dog management" aren't in Australia? And by going on to forums and sitting in your ivory turret, firing arrogance and dismissive comments, as the holder of the all powerful knowledge to solve the worlds problems is helping get the Calgary model implemented how?

I really don't understand what it is you are trying to argue here. You seem to just want to argue, without any real point or meaning. Yes, my issue is that it isn't implemented here. I don't want to be bitten by dogs. I don't want my dog to be bitten by dogs, and I care about community safety, so I find it incredibly frustrating that Australia persists with models that are proven not to work. I also find it incredibly frustrating when I see people on a dog forum making comments as ridiculous as yours and some others. You would think there would be a higher percentage of people who have done their research on this forum but it doesn't seem to be the case.

You have no idea what I do in my spare time re: the BSL issue, so probably best to not make silly comments on that. I will tell you that two weeks ago I returned from a 3.5 week trip to the USA attending conferences and internships with the experts on the subject, to gather information and develop a path for progressing the advocacy work going on here in Australia. There's plenty more I have done and will continue to do so I think I have every right to make a post on a dog forum with my opinions on the subject. Even if I had done none of that, I still have every right to post.

Edited June 12, 2013 by melzawelza

[Luke GSP]

(...)

The bull breed community needs to get it's house in order, stop throwing mud at everyone else and stop trying to fight an argument using facts that in reality do not pertain to the actual concern.

In my opinion this is a well reasoned argument. Well done.

So how do the two of you suggests this is done? I have previously asked this question of Luke GP (three times actually)

What do you suggest we do, that is not illegal?

What I suggest you do, is understand the system, work within the system and formulate a case that appeals to the system. Then again, why would anyone want to listen to me, I'm not an expert on dog attacks or propensity to bite statistics, and what I am discussing is just about politics, and it would appear that most are happy to accept that government, BSL and politics are nothing to do with each other? Seems a strange view to me.

Maybe some more people slicing and dicing posts on internet forums, presenting advantageous information as an answer to a question that was never asked and dismissing evrything else will be the seismic event that rocks the seat of power enough to actually reach in to their pockets and do something that works?

The first step to solving a problem is admitting that you have one!

[Wobbly]

Correct Gecko

Melz, my day to day life with a Pit Bull type dog is fantastic. I will always do my little bit of local community stuff - people pat her at the cafe and fall in love with her and ask what sort of dog, and I tell them Pit Bull type and that her waggling, licky, sociable, people loving temperament is correct for the breed. On a small local basis it gives people a reality check. Beyond the people I come into contact with though, I am not really sure what can be done? Arguing on the internet, interesting as it is sometimes doesn't really seem to acheive much?

[melzawelza]

Correct Gecko

Melz, my day to day life with a Pit Bull type dog is fantastic. I will always do my little bit of local community stuff - people pat her at the cafe and fall in love with her and ask what sort of dog, and I tell them Pit Bull type and that her waggling, licky, sociable, people loving temperament is correct for the breed. On a small local basis it gives people a reality check. Beyond the people I come into contact with though, I am not really sure what can be done? Arguing on the internet, interesting as it is sometimes doesn't really seem to acheive much?

I will keep you in the loop with the stuff we've got planned. :) But don't underestimate what you've been doing - it makes a big difference.

Also - come to the rally if you can!

https://www.facebook.com/events/647192141964156/

Edited June 12, 2013 by melzawelza

[Luke GSP]

The issue, Bully breed owners, is that you would appear (unfortunately) to have within your ranks, a high percentage of owners who are irresponsible dog owners

.

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue.

"I am the Majority"

The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog.

The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks.

There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that.

We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum.

The Calgary Model

You didn't take the full scenario did you, you chose to focus in on a single piece that you could counter argue.

The rest of what you posted had no real value, sorry. Regardless, I didn't feel the need to quote it all as my discussion about proven models of dog management addresses all of your 'issues'.

Well if your all sorted then, why are you on here whinging about it? Oh that's right, because your "proven models of dog management" aren't in Australia? And by going on to forums and sitting in your ivory turret, firing arrogance and dismissive comments, as the holder of the all powerful knowledge to solve the worlds problems is helping get the Calgary model implemented how?

I really don't understand what it is you are trying to argue here. You seem to just want to argue, without any real point or meaning. Yes, my issue is that it isn't implemented here. I don't want to be bitten by dogs. I don't want my dog to be bitten by dogs, and I care about community safety, so I find it incredibly frustrating that Australia persists with models that are proven not to work. I also find it incredibly frustrating when I see people on a dog forum making comments as ridiculous as yours and some others. You would think there would be a higher percentage of people who have done their research on this forum but it doesn't seem to be the case.

You have no idea what I do in my spare time re: the BSL issue, so probably best to not make silly comments on that. I will tell you that two weeks ago I returned from a 3.5 week trip to the USA attending conferences and internships with the experts on the subject, to gather information and develop a path for progressing the advocacy work going on here in Australia. There's plenty more I have done and will continue to do so I think I have every right to make a post on a dog forum with my opinions on the subject. Even if I had done none of that, I still have every right to post.

And You have no idea what I do in mine, I won't write a chest beating diatribe in an attempt to give my opinion more weight than yours, but I thought the problem was changing the political perspective, not design a solution as there is the Calgary model which seems to tick most boxes. Oh well, with all your anti BSL background you seem convinced that you are more than equipped for the challenge as you see it.

Go forth and best of luck!