Yet Another Attack

[trinabean]

It looks to me that if owners/supporters of bull breeds can't even convince people on this forum without being abusive and rude, there is no chance in hell they can convince general public. I am just glad I don't have any of those breeds.

If by 'those breeds' you mean bull breeds, you are certainly lumping a diverse group of breeds into one category.

As has been stated before, the bull breeds include breeds such as the French Bulldog, the Boston Terrier, the British Bulldog, the Boxer, the Bull Terrier, the Bullmastiff, the ASBT as well as the SBT (and by Sandra's experienced eye, the culprits in this attack are not purebred SBT's). Plenty of members of this forum own and responsibly raise these breeds. Plenty of us have well-socialized and trained dogs, and are not rude or abusive on this forum.

My heart sinks every time a bully-type (type, not breed, - how often is one of these dogs a well-raised and cared-for pedigree dog?) dog is responsible for a dog attack.

I'm upset for all involved and angry at the owners who don't take responsibility for their dogs. I hope that the injured women and dogs make a full recovery from this attack. So many of these incidents are preventable. Every time a bully-type breed attacks it means the rest of the bull breeds get tarred with the same brush.

It's disheartening to see so much of this 'tarring' happening on this forum.

Believe it or not, we bull breed owners are not all bogans and our dogs are not the 'devil incarnate' with 'locking jaws.'

Edited June 11, 2013 by trinabean

[felix]

Now, that is reasonable response. Thanks for that.

I didn't mean all bull breeds, of course. Certainly not pugs or Bostons. Mainly those that get most of attention these days. And I do know that there are some fantastic dogs and owners out there. I am not the one that needs convincing. I just don't like how all threads ends like this. Complete waste of everybody's time.

[tdierikx]

The best course is to keep reporting the incidents - if council won't listen, make a report to the police... at least that way, if/when there is a major incident, the dogs have a history that can be taken into account when fining the owners.

T.

I don't think we live in the same world, if you think the Police here are interested in dogs attacking dogs in the street. I can't imagine them even taking a report unless a person is seriously injured.

Nor could any of my reports make a difference to a fine, unless I had concrete evidence of the identity of the dog, and even with an address that can be disputed.

I would like to see a return to the old days of rangers patrolling the streets and impounding every loose dog they see - I can dream.

If there are enough reports about aggressive dogs roaming in a certain area, you might eventually see a ranger patrolling that area... no reports equate to no problem as far as the powers that be see it, and they allocate resources elsewhere. Whether the police are interested or not, if you go in and insist on making a report about menacing dogs, and provide them with enough identifying information as possible, they are actually obliged to take it down and give you an incident number relating to the problem. Enough of these reports will eventually spur the police into getting council rangers to act.

Yes, it may be a pain to take the time to go and make a report to seemingly uninterested police - but if you wish to see something done about the problem, you need to make some noise about it via the right channels.

There is a very apt quote from Edward Burke that sums this all up nicely...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

T.

[Salukifan]

The police have no legal power to round up roaming or aggressive dogs. Neither do they have the skill or equipment.

If you're going to bombard anyone in your area with reports of roaming or aggressive dogs, may I suggest that your local Mayor's email inbox is a far better destination. If you want something done, escalate it up the chain of responsibility/accountability that actually has the power to act.

The police have enough on their plates.

[tdierikx]

The police don't have to round up roaming dogs - but if they alert council to the problem due to reporting by the public, then the council are going to act faster...

T.

[frufru]

I agree with Hairdown! Take photos of roaming dogs - keep a log - make an appointment to see the mayor - ph the local paper and ask to be interviewed about councils reluctance to act !!!! I have lived in two different councils and both have acted when I have been menaced by dogs. However - I did know where the dogs came from - they were not just out and about. Although, rangers in the first council spent quite a while trying to catch a stray dog who was living in a drain - eventually she was caught by a local, impounded and found a great home. I think it is easier when you live in a smaller community.

[Luke GSP]

The Problem is, that the arguments used are always on "selective evidence"

Everytime there is an attack the Bully type owners go in to overdrive demanding the exact breed, full pedigree and DNA result in an attempt to distance their specific breed from the incident.

Everytime there is an attack the Bully type owners roll out the usual arguments regarding bite propensity and dog attack statistics.

Everytime there is an attack the Bully type owners demand complete accuracy in all details whilst "choosing" which pieces of the story to focus on (The ones that either discredit the identification or show that the person is not a dog fight, attack or Bull breed expert)

These are not the issues, they are fantastic arguments if you wish to turn a thread on a forum to custard but in reality they will do little to counter the public or governments standpoint as in reality they do nothing to address the real issue.

The public do not care about the breed to demonise it, they care about the breed as they are trying to grasp factors that were present at the incident in an attempt to make sense of it and build a library of similarities in a bid to be able to identify a similar situation and avoid it themselves. it is a perfectly natural occurence and it is basic learning for threat avoidance. If people started to get killed by falling trees, they would ask what type of tree, where, conditions etc etc.

The public do not care about bite propensity, they care about the affects of that bite. Very few people are concerned about mosquito bites but lots are afraid and concerned about snake bites. very few are scared about lizard bites, but they would be very bothered about a saltwater crocodile. There is no licencing for water pistols yet machine guns are banned, why do you think that is? are you starting to see the pattern?

The public do not want to have to become dog fight, attack or behavior experts, much the same as they have not learnt how to diffuse or identify an IED, Render safe or identify an AK47. They accept that these things should be kept out of the public domain and hence why should they need to have that knowledge?

The issue, Bully breed owners, is that you would appear (unfortunately) to have within your ranks, a high percentage of owners who are irresponsible dog owners, who buy a dog because it looks tough and like it could easily "Smash" another dog or rip someones arm off, who then seem surprised when their "nanny dog" does exactly what they wanted it to look like it was capable of doing, It mauls, injures or kills another dog or worse still a child or adult human. Now, as we have established that these people are irresponsible, there is no surprise that they will buy the dog from their mate Dave, Daves got an awesome dog that drives round in the back of the ute protecting his tools, yet is like a cuddly toy around his kids, and has just had a litter with one of Daves mates dogs. Then should it's official breed be "banned" try and register it as a similar looking "non banned" breed. Which basically means that they are going to undermine and destroy ALL of the Bull breeds by association.

Now please note, I am not saying that other breeds do not have irresponsible dog owners,(Note read the entire paragraph and process all the factors equally, do not just pick on the factors that can be transferred) very few people buy a cocker spaniel, maltese, whippet, yorkie, scotty, etc etc as a statement of how tough they are. Very few of these dogs are as capable of causing the level of damage as efficiently that a bull breed could, or with the same level of "gameness". (if they could, they would have been used for bear/bull fighting, dog fighting etc instead)Very few of these dogs would be registered as a different breed in an attempt to avoid attention. (hence should one cause harm, what it is registered as is the type of dog that it is)

The bull breed community needs to get it's house in order, stop throwing mud at everyone else and stop trying to fight an argument using facts that in reality do not pertain to the actual concern.

[BlackJaq]

So you expect the bull breed community to do what no other breed community has been able to do, which is stop BYBs using their chosen breeds or look-alikes?

I think it should be up to the government to stop spreading misinformation and start enforcing micro chip, leash and containment laws and most of these attacks wouldn't even be happening, because all dogs would be safely contained or under effective control, which seems to be the number one common factor as far as I can see.

Edited June 12, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Staffyluv]

It looks to me that if owners/supporters of bull breeds can't even convince people on this forum without being abusive and rude, there is no chance in hell they can convince general public. I am just glad I don't have any of those breeds.

If by 'those breeds' you mean bull breeds, you are certainly lumping a diverse group of breeds into one category.

As has been stated before, the bull breeds include breeds such as the French Bulldog, the Boston Terrier, the British Bulldog, the Boxer, the Bull Terrier, the Bullmastiff, the ASBT as well as the SBT (and by Sandra's experienced eye, the culprits in this attack are not purebred SBT's). Plenty of members of this forum own and responsibly raise these breeds. Plenty of us have well-socialized and trained dogs, and are not rude or abusive on this forum.

My heart sinks every time a bully-type (type, not breed, - how often is one of these dogs a well-raised and cared-for pedigree dog?) dog is responsible for a dog attack.

I'm upset for all involved and angry at the owners who don't take responsibility for their dogs. I hope that the injured women and dogs make a full recovery from this attack. So many of these incidents are preventable. Every time a bully-type breed attacks it means the rest of the bull breeds get tarred with the same brush.

It's disheartening to see so much of this 'tarring' happening on this forum.

Believe it or not, we bull breed owners are not all bogans and our dogs are not the 'devil incarnate' with 'locking jaws.'

[mantis]

So you expect the bull breed community to do what no other breed community has been able to do, which is stop BYBs using their chosen breeds or look-alikes?

I think it should be up to the government to stop spreading misinformation and start enforcing micro chip, leash and containment laws and most of these attacks wouldn't even be happening, because all dogs would be safely contained or under effective control, which seems to be the number one common factor as far as I can see.

Exactly & apply the enforcement on ALL breeds, no matter the size or breed, from Chi's to Mastiff's.

[Jed]

98% of dog attacks, either on dogs or humans, are perpetrated by ill-bred, nasty natured dogs which are neither cared for, nor trained by their owners.

BSL is the greatest load of lock jaw nonsense ever pushed onto the public. While councils and governments are posturing and posing about "pit bulls", meanwhile not doing anything effective to stop DOG attacks, mid size brown and brindle dogs are free to attack at will.

And nothing is done until someone or some cute dog is injured/killed, and then the councils run about like headless chooks and the media blames "pit bulls". It's cheaper for councils to do nothing about roaming dogs, and only pay attention when there is injury or death ... and the media is banging drums and blaming pitbulls.

Meanwhile, in Vic, we have the same scenario we had in Q - councils are dragging off anything they vaguely suspect might be a pit bull, so they can kill it, whilst totally ignoring savage dogs.

It's savage dogs they need to collar, not the other kind.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Jed

[megan_]

The best course is to keep reporting the incidents - if council won't listen, make a report to the police... at least that way, if/when there is a major incident, the dogs have a history that can be taken into account when fining the owners.

T.

yeah, but your dog is being attacked - would you seriously just keep walking your dog and letting them get attacked? I assume you don't dogs that aren't good at defending themselves?

[BlackJaq]

The best course is to keep reporting the incidents - if council won't listen, make a report to the police... at least that way, if/when there is a major incident, the dogs have a history that can be taken into account when fining the owners.

T.

yeah, but your dog is being attacked - would you seriously just keep walking your dog and letting them get attacked? I assume you don't dogs that aren't good at defending themselves?

You don't have to walk your dog to report loose dogs. Just pick up a phone and call council and police. Every time. No dog being walked required.

[Luke GSP]

So on one hand you feel that the government are failing but you feel that it should be their job to save your breed type, not yours?

The Australian government is arguably one of the most backward thinking thinking governments in the entire world when it comes to controlling or managing an issue. If a fine doesn't work, make the fine bigger. If an animal is not desirable, eradicate it. (even though eradication is impossible) if illegal gun crime is on the rise, tighten up your gun laws on the legally held firearms, If refugees are arriving on boats, tow them back because they didn't come through the proper channels. (did you expect them to get a passport, visiting visa and buy a qantas ticket? without their persecutor noticing?)

Best of luck with that.

[mantis]

So on one hand you feel that the government are failing but you feel that it should be their job to save your breed type, not yours?

The Australian government is arguably one of the most backward thinking thinking governments in the entire world when it comes to controlling or managing an issue. If a fine doesn't work, make the fine bigger. If an animal is not desirable, eradicate it. (even though eradication is impossible) if illegal gun crime is on the rise, tighten up your gun laws on the legally held firearms, If refugees are arriving on boats, tow them back because they didn't come through the proper channels. (did you expect them to get a passport, visiting visa and buy a qantas ticket? without their persecutor noticing?)

Best of luck with that.

What the hell is your post about? I usually find your posts confusing, but this one tops them all.

[Sandra777]

So on one hand you feel that the government are failing but you feel that it should be their job to save your breed type, not yours?

It's the government's job to create laws that will actually do what they are intended to do.

What makes you think that I and every other responsible owner of "targeted" breeds have not being doing everything we can to protect our chosen breeds - both from crazy governments and irresponsible owners?

[BlackJaq]

I think the government are failing everybody by insisting on persecuting random pets for their look whilst ignoring people who daily break the laws that actually make sense and failing to enforce said laws. If ANY dog, regardless of breed, is loose, the local council should be required to come get it, rain or shine, night or day and people need to be badgering their councils to actually do this.

Why do you think we are paying registration fees? Rates? All those other taxes and fees? Only to find random dogs and cats shitting on our front lawns in the morning? Heck no, we pay so that we have the right to call the council ranger and that guy comes and picks up the roaming animal. Frankly, I don't care if council pound euth rates triple, if it means roaming animals are kept off the street.

What exactly is it that you expect me to do? Take my rifle out on walks and shoot any bully that is roaming on sight? Find their owners and bash their heads in? Lecture them? Harass them into controlling their dog? What? The only available (read: LEGAL) option is to notify the authorities.

Do you think Joe Bloe BYB bully breeder is going to give a shit if we shun him at dog shows? Or if we whisper about him in dog circles or don't invite him to the neighbourhood bbq?

Luke GSP, please explain what you expect us (me) to do? I would love to do it, as long as it doesn't involve me going to jail

Edited June 12, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Luke GSP]

So on one hand you feel that the government are failing but you feel that it should be their job to save your breed type, not yours?

The Australian government is arguably one of the most backward thinking thinking governments in the entire world when it comes to controlling or managing an issue. If a fine doesn't work, make the fine bigger. If an animal is not desirable, eradicate it. (even though eradication is impossible) if illegal gun crime is on the rise, tighten up your gun laws on the legally held firearms, If refugees are arriving on boats, tow them back because they didn't come through the proper channels. (did you expect them to get a passport, visiting visa and buy a qantas ticket? without their persecutor noticing?)

Best of luck with that.

What the hell is your post about? I usually find your posts confusing, but this one tops them all.

And I find your back handed sarcastic comments unhelpful and utterly unproductive. Perhaps they are a perfect demonstration why the bully community is found questioning its support on forums like this? As you seem to prefer to attack or try to discredit rather than develop support, educate and promote?

If you find the above statement beyond comprehension then I suggest that you ignore my posts, in an attempt to save you the time to try and understand them, and me the time trying to explain it to you.

[melzawelza]

The issue, Bully breed owners, is that you would appear (unfortunately) to have within your ranks, a high percentage of owners who are irresponsible dog owners

.

Actually, we don't. The absolute majority of Bull Breed (remembering that this term encompasses AT LEAST three breeds and their mixes if you are being conservative about the term) are good dog owners, love their dogs, and their dogs NEVER cause an issue.

"I am the Majority"

The percentage of dogs that attack *of all breeds* is so incredibly small. It is minute. This INCLUDES Bull Breeds. You are infinitely more at risk getting in your car every day than living next to a dog.

The hysteria perpetuated by the media and people like yourselves is unhelpful and certainly does nothing to prevent dog attacks.

There are proven solutions to reducing dog attacks even further, and our Government currently ignores them. Those solutions have nothing to do with breed. Simple as that.

We don't need restrict breeding, we don't need to ban breeds, we don't need to license breeders, we don't need to license owners. We simply need to follow the proven models of dog management, which focus on education and licensing first and foremost, and follows it up with strong enforcement of basic dog management legislation. It's so simple yet it seems to be so hard to grasp by Governments and individuals - even on a dog forum.

The Calgary Model

[BlackJaq]

I think the government are failing everybody by insisting on persecuting random pets for their look whilst ignoring people who daily break the laws that actually make sense and failing to enforce said laws. If ANY dog, regardless of breed, is loose, the local council should be required to come get it, rain or shine, night or day and people need to be badgering their councils to actually do this.

Why do you think we are paying registration fees? Rates? All those other taxes and fees? Only to find random dogs and cats shitting on our front lawns in the morning? Heck no, we pay so that we have the right to call the council ranger and that guy comes and picks up the roaming animal. Frankly, I don't care if council pound euth rates triple, if it means roaming animals are kept off the street.

What exactly is it that you expect me to do? Take my rifle out on walks and shoot any bully that is roaming on sight? Find their owners and bash their heads in? Lecture them? Harass them into controlling their dog? What? The only available (read: LEGAL) option is to notify the authorities.

Do you think Joe Bloe BYB bully breeder is going to give a shit if we shun him at dog shows? Or if we whisper about him in dog circles or don't invite him to the neighbourhood bbq?

Luke GSP, please explain what you expect us (me) to do? I would love to do it, as long as it doesn't involve me going to jail

I would like to ask you this again, Luke GSP. Please give an explanation as to what you think we, as bull breed community, should do?