Is Temperament 100% Genetic?

[Santo66]

In this case I see loads of stuff on people designing temperament tests and trying to determine via these assessments how reliable and accurate they are to predict behaviour in various situations or when the pup is older. Few get anywhere near looking at genetic possibilities re temperament , how selection impacts on predictability and reliability of assessments of what a pup's temperament will be etc ,not just between breeds but also between what breeders in a particular breed have focused on. Not that I need studies for me to believe that this a greater impact than anything else but some more studies would tidy it all up.

The default behaviour is the genetics of the dog, the result is the environmental factor (training). I have a DA dog here through training the DA is pretty well masked in an environment of passive dogs, in other words I could in some circumstances present this dog as extremely stable around other dogs but the fact is he's not.....up the pressure of a fiesty dog and the DA is back out there in full force (default behaviour). I have another dog here same breed different lines who's not DA in the slightest and never has been AND the non DA dog was never socialised with other dogs as a puppy either. Working back through the pedigree on these dogs, the sire of the DA dog was DA and the grandsire sire and dam on the stud line were both DA?. I would predict if I bred the DA dog which isn't going to happen, he would likely throw DA progeny.........that's genetic IMHO.

Environmental factor is a breeder's friend, there is too much of this used as an excuse for genetic flaw, train the dog out of poor behaviours can be done to a point, but it's much easier to begin with dog that doesn't have the poor behaviour in the first place, like the DA scenario above?

Edited June 10, 2013 by Santo66

[Aidan3]

"

We would not ask how much musicians and how much instruments contribute to music; we would not ask how much the water and how much the temperature contribute to evaporation; and we would not ask how much males and how much females contribute to copulation. Similarly, we shouldn't ask how much genetic and experiential factors contribute to behavioral development." Pinel, "Biopsychology" Chapter 2, 2011.

Pinel asks us [students of biopsychology] to consider three things, 1. neurons become active long before they are fully developed 2. the course of their development depends greatly on their activity, much of which is triggered by external experience, and 3. experience continuously modifies genetic expression.

I wonder if this would be helpful in selecting the parentage I would like my next pup from

I don't know, does it make sense to you?

To apply it to this situation it would suggest that you select a pup like to express the desired traits and then provide an environment that supports the behaviours you wish to see expressed.

[Jumabaar]

I think Corvus is onto something when she says we havent defined 'temperament' so how can we say its genetic or not?

I agree what I think temperament is I cant imagine why anyone would think that could be impacted by environment or owners.

For me its not behaviour or able to be trained in or out.

Can you give me an example of something that purely cant be modified at all?

I look at a horse which is a prey animal, and yet I see police horses resisting instincts. I have seen dogs that have been treated so harshly that they don't respond to anything anymore- so they have had their desire to survive taken out of them.

I genuinely cant imagine any action by a dog that can not be modified in any way shape or form. Even an aggressive dog can be made 'more' aggressive by their environment.

[Steve]

"We would not ask how much musicians and how much instruments contribute to music; we would not ask how much the water and how much the temperature contribute to evaporation; and we would not ask how much males and how much females contribute to copulation. Similarly, we shouldn't ask how much genetic and experiential factors contribute to behavioral development." Pinel, "Biopsychology" Chapter 2, 2011.

Pinel asks us [students of biopsychology] to consider three things, 1. neurons become active long before they are fully developed 2. the course of their development depends greatly on their activity, much of which is triggered by external experience, and 3. experience continuously modifies genetic expression.

Well I think as breeders where dogs are concerned we should be asking how much is genetic - in fact I think its pretty stupid not to if you breed purebred dogs.

[corvus]

thanks Corvus - perhaps part of the answer lies in us talking together more and working together - numerous ways I can imagine that could happen .There are also many things that as a breeder I would like to see studied by scientists to enable breeders to make better choices.I guess that politics, fame and fortune will always impact too.

There are undoubtedly trust issues. Scientists are guided by a sense of obligation to both uncover the truth of a matter and then report it. They'll want to do this their way, because they trust their own work and their own interpretations of the data. It's easy for something that starts out to be mutually beneficial to wind up being something both parties feel burned and jaded about. Scientists will feel like their integrity is being compromised or they are not being allowed to do their job if they are being given directives, but the other interested party is going to feel like they are losing control of their project and not getting what they wanted out of it if scientists go ahead and do exactly what they want to do. Finding a middle ground where everybody does benefit equally can be very challenging, and probably gets more challenging the more investment is made into the project. I think maybe finding the right people to work with will have a big impact on how working together may pan out. But at the end of the day, once you get scientists involved you have to be prepared for whatever comes out of the study to be published (unless you can afford to put a scientist on your payroll). Publications are currency for scientists, so they won't want to get involved in anything where their ability to publish might be limited. A lot of organisations balk because they are not entirely sure they will like the results of a study. The scientist probably won't care, which is what scares the organisations, who have a vested interest in the outcome. I can certainly see where they are coming from. Questions like "What if they find out dogs in shelters are going deaf??" are pertinent. The scientist will publish it and get a big pat on the back, and the shelters that facilitated the data collection are the ones that are going to cop the heat.

Anyway, in a couple of months I'll be finished writing my thesis and will be fiddling around trying to get more papers out before I graduate at the end of the year. Feel free to flick me an e-mail ([email protected]) if you ever want to discuss possibilities. I might know someone suitable if I'm not.

In this case I see loads of stuff on people designing temperament tests and trying to determine via these assessments how reliable and accurate they are to predict behaviour in various situations or when the pup is older. Few get anywhere near looking at genetic possibilities re temperament , how selection impacts on predictability and reliability of assessments of what a pup's temperament will be etc ,not just between breeds but also between what breeders in a particular breed have focused on. Not that I need studies for me to believe that this a greater impact than anything else but some more studies would tidy it all up.

Seriously I appreciate your input - its been great.

Yep, that's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said the field is still in this exploratory phase. A lot of work seems to be aimed at figuring out what can be reliably measured and what is stable and correlations between that and relevant behaviours rather than at what actually is predictive. And genetics rarely enter into it because those that are doing these studies are not geneticists. When we do get into predictive stuff it's a lot of hints and that's about all. And still there's the problem with how the data is collected, which is usually through survey or behavioural observations, both of which usually have subjective components. I could rant about this all day. Sam Gosling is one of the authors on the first paper mita posted. He's an interesting chap, and has a lot of really sensible things to say about personality research and why it's not moving forward very satisfactorily. We need some mathematical types to come and help us figure out what to look at.

[mita]

I do believe genetics plays a role because we can select for it. I certainly wouldnt bet on it being the ONLY contributor for temperament.

Very, very interesting study on tail chasing in dogs .... to everyone's surprise, I'd think.... found the factors associated with it, were non-genetic. Nor was it boredom.

The associated cluster of environmental factors that tail chasing dogs have in common are fascinating to read about. Summary report in Psychology Today:

http://www.psycholog...ase-their-tails

Thats not quite right . They found SOME factors associated with it were non genetic and they still expect to find a genetic link.

Which .... if you read my then edited post..... is exactly what I said.

Oh Good = we agree then

It sounds reasonable in these circumstances to have an expectations that a genetic link will be found. Even the fact that some environmental factors turned up in the mix around tail chasers would fit in with that. Genes don't necessarily automatically get expressed.... they can need certain environmental triggers to 'switch them on'. There's a saying that genes produce the gun... & the environment fires the bullet.

A really blunt paper that looks at the on-going hunt for a genetic link for aggression in dogs is interesting. The authors very much go after aggression from that angle. Tho' a link's not yet found, they strongly argue that certain dogs carry a genetic pre-disposition. And they're just as blunt about breeding decisions being made about such dogs.... as in not! So they acknowledge those who breed dogs have to make a call.

http://actavet.vfu.cz/pdf/200776030431.pdf

Edited June 10, 2013 by mita

[Santo66]

I think Corvus is onto something when she says we havent defined 'temperament' so how can we say its genetic or not?

I agree what I think temperament is I cant imagine why anyone would think that could be impacted by environment or owners.

For me its not behaviour or able to be trained in or out.

Can you give me an example of something that purely cant be modified at all?

I look at a horse which is a prey animal, and yet I see police horses resisting instincts. I have seen dogs that have been treated so harshly that they don't respond to anything anymore- so they have had their desire to survive taken out of them.

I genuinely cant imagine any action by a dog that can not be modified in any way shape or form. Even an aggressive dog can be made 'more' aggressive by their environment.

Environment is the trigger of genetic response IMHO whether the response is a good one or bad one, the genetics of the dog is the determining factor. Training will mask or alter the response, but the genetics has to be in the dog in the first place to get the desired response you are looking for?

[Jumabaar]

"We would not ask how much musicians and how much instruments contribute to music; we would not ask how much the water and how much the temperature contribute to evaporation; and we would not ask how much males and how much females contribute to copulation. Similarly, we shouldn't ask how much genetic and experiential factors contribute to behavioral development." Pinel, "Biopsychology" Chapter 2, 2011.

Pinel asks us [students of biopsychology] to consider three things, 1. neurons become active long before they are fully developed 2. the course of their development depends greatly on their activity, much of which is triggered by external experience, and 3. experience continuously modifies genetic expression.

Well I think as breeders where dogs are concerned we should be asking how much is genetic - in fact I think its pretty stupid not to if you breed purebred dogs.

But I don't think anyone is trying to say that there is NO genetics involved. Clearly Kelpies have a genetic predisposition in them to herd sheep that a Fox terrier is less likely to have. But with enough training could you get a Fox terrier to mimmic the herding behaviours of a Kelpie? Perhaps.

If you then showed that Fox terrier to a group of aliens from another planet could they then assume that a Fox terriers temperament is to herd?

When I look at that quote I think that if I want to play a piece of music I can pick the type of instrument (violin for example) and I can pick the piece of music but I will never be able to replicate another person's rendition because of what I personally bring the piece. I could pick a guitar instead and KNOW the range of sound that will come with it and how it will be different to the violin- much like picking a breed of dog. If I play it in my bedroom there is a different sound compared to playing somewhere with great acoustics. And if I hand it to someone else and they sit where I was sitting it will sound a little different again. Its still the same guitar but there is so much more going on that cant be eliminated from the 'sound' we here.

A guitar wont sound like a violin no matter how hard we try. So yes there are genetics in play but I dont believe that we can ever see that 'blueprint' without environment overlaying it.

[Aidan3]

"We would not ask how much musicians and how much instruments contribute to music; we would not ask how much the water and how much the temperature contribute to evaporation; and we would not ask how much males and how much females contribute to copulation. Similarly, we shouldn't ask how much genetic and experiential factors contribute to behavioral development." Pinel, "Biopsychology" Chapter 2, 2011.

Pinel asks us [students of biopsychology] to consider three things, 1. neurons become active long before they are fully developed 2. the course of their development depends greatly on their activity, much of which is triggered by external experience, and 3. experience continuously modifies genetic expression.

Well I think as breeders where dogs are concerned we should be asking how much is genetic - in fact I think its pretty stupid not to if you breed purebred dogs.

I think breeders should be breeding for desired traits. Trying to attribute a percentage of a particular trait to genetics and a percentage of a particular trait to the environment is a red-herring, you can't have one without the other - they are interdependent.

[Steve]

I think Corvus is onto something when she says we havent defined 'temperament' so how can we say its genetic or not?

I agree what I think temperament is I cant imagine why anyone would think that could be impacted by environment or owners.

For me its not behaviour or able to be trained in or out.

Can you give me an example of something that purely cant be modified at all?

I look at a horse which is a prey animal, and yet I see police horses resisting instincts. I have seen dogs that have been treated so harshly that they don't respond to anything anymore- so they have had their desire to survive taken out of them.

I genuinely cant imagine any action by a dog that can not be modified in any way shape or form. Even an aggressive dog can be made 'more' aggressive by their environment.

I watch a Maremma bitch who has never been trained to behave the way she does. A Ewe is lambing ,the bitch comes close and provides a windbreak ,helps clean up the placenta and when the ewe stands and allows the lamb to come in under her the bitch stands close and the the lamb comes in under her too allowing her scent to be imprinted on the lamb within minutes of its birth. If I separate her from the lambs she will quite sneakily find a way to get back to them.Everything about her when interacting with them is soft , kind, gentle - beautiful making them love her and rely on her. She will in an instant turn into a raging monster and protect them against any perceived threat to them - killing a predator if she has no choice. Any one who has ever tried to train one will know that its easy to do until those triggers are back in place.I can change the species of animal they are working with - replace it with humans but those base temperament - or is it behaviours or instincts issues which allow them to be able to do such a wonderful job are always there. I have once only ever had a Maremma bring a ball back for me and God knows Ive knocked myself out trying. They wont sleep in a kennel but prefer to sleep out in the weather with the sheep.

I watch a beagle who just cant resist putting its nose down and following a scent - sure I can keep it on a lead, I can hold the lead high I can distract it , train it to the maximum level of obedience but always there is the risk that if you give it the chance its going to go. Lots of our beagles have got great grades in obedience over the years but not one of them has ever lost the base need to sometimes simply follow a scent and stubborn as hell when they are turned on too.

Anyway as I said Im not sure what Im thinking temperament is what others see it as but I know I can turn those behaviours on or off or lessen them or see them less often if I select against them easier than I can by trying to train it out of them or alter it by how I raise them.

[Jumabaar]

I think Corvus is onto something when she says we havent defined 'temperament' so how can we say its genetic or not?

I agree what I think temperament is I cant imagine why anyone would think that could be impacted by environment or owners.

For me its not behaviour or able to be trained in or out.

Can you give me an example of something that purely cant be modified at all?

I look at a horse which is a prey animal, and yet I see police horses resisting instincts. I have seen dogs that have been treated so harshly that they don't respond to anything anymore- so they have had their desire to survive taken out of them.

I genuinely cant imagine any action by a dog that can not be modified in any way shape or form. Even an aggressive dog can be made 'more' aggressive by their environment.

Environment is the trigger of genetic response IMHO whether the response is a good one or bad one, the genetics of the dog is the determining factor. Training will mask or alter the response, but the genetics has to be in the dog in the first place to get the desired response you are looking for?

I agree that there are behaviours that are not genetically possible.

But I do believe ANY dog can bite, growl, cower with the right environmental stimulation. I guess what I am saying is when do you say this is 'temperament' and this is 'training'. The first time a behaviour is exhibited? or once it becomes a habit. A dog that bites at 6 weeks may have been teased by a child continuously for 5 weeks, does it have a really crap temperament (I mean think about it a 6 WEEK old puppy acting aggressively) or did it originally have a pretty moderate temperament and it has been pushed well and truly over the limit by its environment and in any other circumstance it would have been a happy little individual that would have comped with that treatment at a later age, it was just poor timing during development combined with genetics? Yes the dog is genetically capable of biting but can we eliminate the environmental impact?

Is there an age at which you decide environment has played a bigger factor than genetics on behaviour and is no longer temperament?

"Training" or environment starts in utero so how can we say any behaviour we see is 'temperament' and not training?

[mita]

But I do believe ANY dog can bite, growl, cower with the right environmental stimulation. I guess what I am saying is when do you say this is 'temperament' and this is 'training'.

You could equally believe that ANY human can bite, growl or cower in response to a particular environmental stimulation. They're all behaviours.

'Temperament' is not confined to a highly specific situation .... it's a hard-wired pattern of responding, that remains true across time & numbers of situations. Humans can be highly motivated to at least modify some of their temperamental traits because they interfere with their life goals in some way. That would be 'training[. But they're unlikely to turn into the reverse.

I find it harder to get a grip on the same question with dogs. Especially as I'm not entirely sure about the boundaries between breed traits & temperament traits. I saw a break-down somewhere of the distribution of temperament traits across a number of breeds. Some breeds showed a definitely pattern. As would be expected because they'd been bred for generations.

It keeps coming down to breeders making their calls on what they want, based on their experience IMO. That's why I go to certain registered breeders & I've got the greatest respect for what they do.

ADDED: Found the comparisons (was in the paper I posted):

Bradshaw et al. (1996) performed a similar study in which veterinarians and dog-care

professionals rated various breeds of dogs on a 13 point scale. Factor analysis revealed three traits: aggressivity, reactivity, and immaturity.

Examples are:

high aggressivity, average reactivity, low immaturity (Rottweiler); high aggressivity, average reactivity, high immaturity (Jack Russell); average aggressivity, low reactivity, low immaturity (British bulldog); average aggressivity, high reactivity and low immaturity (toy poodle); low aggressivity, average reactivity, high immaturity (English setter); low aggressivity, low reactivity, low immaturity Greyhound); low aggressivity, high reactivity, low immaturity (King Charles spaniel); average aggressivity, average reactivity, average immaturity (Samoyed).

Edited June 10, 2013 by mita

[Steve]

Wonder how they tested immaturity.

[mita]

Wonder how they tested immaturity.

I was wondering, too, how they tested aggressivity!

One not surprising thing was that the dogs who snapped at children were high on reactivity, but not high on aggressivity.

ADDED: Found the abstract. It used a survey method (vets & dog care professionals).

Not specific testing:

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/138/19/465.abstract

By sheer chance, I found a later paper (2005) from researcher in Sweden. Far more specific testing & conclusions about any breed-type behaviours among breeds & specially amongst groups. Many points jump out. One that struck me was the particular traits found among show dogs... of whatever breed.

Based on test results, breed scores were calculated for 4 behavioural traits: playfulness, curiosity/fearlessness, sociability and aggressiveness.

It's so good, I'm passing it on to the breeders I know:

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/AnimPersInst/Animal%20Personality%20PDFs/S/Sa-Sc/Svartburg%202006.pdf

Edited June 10, 2013 by mita

[Santo66]

A

dog that bites at 6 weeks may have been teased by a child continuously for 5 weeks, does it have a really crap temperament (I mean think about it a 6 WEEK old puppy acting aggressively) or did it originally have a pretty moderate temperament and it has been pushed well and truly over the limit by its environment

I think if the puppy reacts to teasing with biting, teasing is the trigger to bring out the genetic response to bite. A different pup may cower and run away to teasing where the other became aggressive which I believe is genetic. If the trigger is contrary to the genetics of the dog caused by environmental factor or training, this can be easily undone or retrained. If the environmental factor aligns with the genetics of the dog for example, encouraging a genetically DA dog to go after other dogs and attack them, this is much harder to re-train for appropriate behaviour.

Temperament does have a wide spectrum of what is good or bad dependant on what the dog is used for I guess? A dog with strong genetic stranger aggression groomed for a guard dog could be said to have a great temperament for a guard dog, however the same dog taken to family reunion wanting to bite everyone he/she didn't know, would be more likey considered to have a shocking temperament of the highest level.

I agree with Corvus in that regard, what is temperament, who really knows??

[Lablover]

Hope I am not intruding on this topic, but as a private breeder of working/field labradors (breeder of youngest australian national retrieving trial champion, sold dozens of pups to Australian Government and/or police, imported genetics +++), genetic health is also important.

The percentage of washouts is not only due to temperament.

We need to think of the whole dog.

Nevertheless love the topic. Thankyou!! Enjoyed it!!

[corvus]

Wonder how they tested immaturity.

It was a factor in a factor analysis. Associated with destructiveness, playfulness, and general activity.

Mita, the Swedish fellow Svartberg did a series of papers on boldness and shyness in dogs. That was factor analysis as well, but based on the Swedish DMA rather than a survey. Most of them are available free online. His entire PhD thesis is also free online. It's called "Personality in Dogs".

It does start to get especially tricky when you're looking at big, over-arching personality types. For example, you might have a dog that has a lower bite threshold than another dog, but do you call it a low bite threshold trait or does it come under the broader umbrella of "proactive coping", which might incorporate a suite of behaviours that typically come out in times of stress, variable depending on the type of stressor. One thing that Aidan's quote was getting at, I think, is that behaviour is by nature flexible so that animals can adapt to their environment. An animal that usually copes with stress proactively is entirely likely to switch to a more passive form of coping if the situation favours it. Theoretically we would expect even a strong tendency to behave in a certain way to be flexible. A lack of behavioural flexibility means the animal will get stressed more often, which is hard on their bodies.

[Weasels]

"

We would not ask how much musicians and how much instruments contribute to music; we would not ask how much the water and how much the temperature contribute to evaporation; and we would not ask how much males and how much females contribute to copulation. Similarly, we shouldn't ask how much genetic and experiential factors contribute to behavioral development." Pinel, "Biopsychology" Chapter 2, 2011.

Pinel asks us [students of biopsychology] to consider three things, 1. neurons become active long before they are fully developed 2. the course of their development depends greatly on their activity, much of which is triggered by external experience, and 3. experience continuously modifies genetic expression.

I wonder if this would be helpful in selecting the parentage I would like my next pup from

I don't know, does it make sense to you?

To apply it to this situation it would suggest that you select a pup like to express the desired traits and then provide an environment that supports the behaviours you wish to see expressed.

For me, it means I still wouldn't get a dog from the best lines in the world if the pups weren't socialised.

----

None of the terms are well defined in this discussion, which I think is half the battle. Not only is 'temperament' a slippery concept, it seems a lot of people use 'genetic' interchangeably with 'heritable'. There is a whole field of study on non-genetic inheritance, so the two terms do mean different things.

Steve you noted earlier that scientists from different disciplines never agree. We have at least 3 students/professionals from fields relevant to the topic and I think they've all agreed that it's bloody complicated :laugh:

Edited June 10, 2013 by TheLBD

[sandgrubber]

In my experience, temperament/behavior is not only genetic, it can be hard to breed out. I, unfortunately, started with a foundation Labrador bitch who wasn't fond of water and had zero retrieve drive. Her sire was the same. I've tried to counteract that by choosing studs with retrieving qualifications. Three generations later, I have dogs who like, but don't love, water, and still no retrieve drive.

Actually, it's more complicated.

I kept a pup from my first litter with foundation bitch. Sire had his RRD plus a bench Ch. I was living by the beach at the time, and the pup got an early intro to water, and surf. She ended out very aggressive in approach to water. She would plow into a breaking wave, get rolled, and come back for more. So maybe the potential is there, but requires early training to bring it out.

Edited June 13, 2013 by sandgrubber

[trinabean]

By sheer chance, I found a later paper (2005) from researcher in Sweden. Far more specific testing & conclusions about any breed-type behaviours among breeds & specially amongst groups. Many points jump out. One that struck me was the particular traits found among show dogs... of whatever breed.

Based on test results, breed scores were calculated for 4 behavioural traits: playfulness, curiosity/fearlessness, sociability and aggressiveness.

It's so good, I'm passing it on to the breeders I know:

http://homepage.psy....burg%202006.pdf

A very interesting read Mita, thanks for posting that. :)