Is Temperament 100% Genetic?

[sandgrubber]

I came across an interesting discussion of temperament on a GSD breeder's website. They define temperament as 100% genetic (as opposed to behaviour, which can be shaped), and go on to catalog describe various unsound temperaments, including sharp, shy, sharp-shy, submissive, temperamental, hyperactive, overaggressive, dominant, and independent. For details see:

http://www.videxgsd.com/understanding_dogs.htm

I like the idea that undesirable temperaments are genetic and can be bred away from, if not out. The notion that there are different temperament faults, and each needs to be considered specifically also rings true. But does it work in practice? Are people like me who advocate more breeding for temperament as opposed to cosmetics, full of hot air? Could breeding for temperament be done more systematically?

[corvus]

I came across an interesting discussion of temperament on a GSD breeder's website. They define temperament as 100% genetic (as opposed to behaviour, which can be shaped).

The problem with this is how can you verify it? The only way I can think of is with behavioural genetics, and we just don't have the knowledge base for that yet. Behaviour is gloriously flexible because it is adaptive. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that certain personality traits can be measured consistently over time with behavioural observations, but there is also plenty of evidence that other traits appear to be much less consistent over time. And there is yet more evidence that an animal that shows one trait considered to be a measure of personality can be induced to basically reverse their expression of that trait by changing the environmental conditions. Nobody really knows how readily this occurs, or if it occurs at all in dogs.

Furthermore, we don't really understand how early (and in utero) conditions may shape even genetic expression. There is plenty of evidence to suggest a baby's experiences in utero program them for the environmental conditions they are likely to be born into. I get the breeder's meaning, but it is too simplistic.

I like the idea that undesirable temperaments are genetic and can be bred away from, if not out. The notion that there are different temperament faults, and each needs to be considered specifically also rings true. But does it work in practice? Are people like me who advocate more breeding for temperament as opposed to cosmetics, full of hot air? Could breeding for temperament be done more systematically?

Maybe. No. Yes.

It comes down to measurement IMO. If you know what to measure and can do so in a standardised manner you will be heading towards something more systematic and reliable. Those first two are damn hard to figure out, though. Scientists still haven't worked out either.

[dancinbcs]

Puppy temperaments are definitely set and obvious by 5-6 weeks and this is why one puppy is not equal to any other. Each one needs to be carefully placed in the right home based on temperament, not colours or markings or whether the puppy was the first to run to a buyer just because it was the first to wake up from a nap. I detest the practice of allocating puppies before 6 weeks as they often end up in the wrong homes. I have knocked back many people on my waiting list if I didn't have the right puppy for them. I have also observed a litter of accidental crossbred puppies that were all so aggressive by 4-5 weeks that even their beautiful natured mother didn't want to go anywhere near them any more. They couldn't be handled and just fought among themselves constantly. The whole litter was pts at 5 weeks.

Behaviour is altered by environment but temperament is set at birth.

[corvus]

Behaviour is altered by environment but temperament is set at birth.

I personally have data that raises significant questions about the latter. But perhaps it is a matter of definition. How do you quantify temperament? Everybody I know does it through behaviour. If behaviour can be altered by the environment, how can you claim that temperament is not? You need heritability scores, but even those are validated by measures of behavioural output. This is a circular argument. It does not mean there's no truth to it, but I think people need to think hard about what they know and what is conventional wisdom or something they think they know. There are big problems with believing something that can't be verified. If breeders genuinely want to get better at breeding for temperament they need to realise they don't know that much about it. I can assure you they don't, because nobody does. That's why the fallout rate for most working dogs that are specifically bred for doing a job is still commonly 50-70%. That's huge. If they knew how to breed the right temperament it wouldn't be nearly so high.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

There was a bloke who was studying human behaviour and in particular the "warrior" gene or a genetic connection to psychopaths, and he discovered that he had all the genetic markers that suggested he should be a very violent person - but he wasn't and he put that down to his upbringing and child hood which he thought was very "loving".

Most puppy litters are pretty competitive.

So I think personality (or temperanment) is fairly genetic - but it can be modified with the right training. The right training - has been shown to change the way the brain is connected internally.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/allinthemind/changing-brains/4290952

I figure if it is possible for humans, it's possible for dogs.

[Weasels]

MRB there was an article in New Scientist where the author clarified some information about the 'warrior gene'. I can't remember the specifics but there were a heap of complicating factors like different variants of the gene, interactions with other genes, racial history and of course environment. Basically way less straightforward than was presented in pretty much all the media around the study.

The article is behind a paywall ( ), but is here for subscription holders - http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627557.300-dangerous-dna-the-truth-about-the-warrior-gene.html

[tdierikx]

Like any trait one is born with, temperament is modifiable with the correct training.

Yes - underlying temperament is genetic in nature, but environmental conditioning will shape how it is manifested externally.

The book (and movie) "The Boys From Brazil" is an interesting spin on the shaping of genetic traits via environmental stimulus - in the book, the scientists are trying to recreate Hitler by exposing cloned children to the same experiences he had had growing up... seriously chilling book, and an even more chilling movie adaptation of same.

T.

[WreckitWhippet]

Temperament is 100% genetic.

Behaviour is the result of environmental influences on temperament.

When you've known many generations in your lines, you begin to see that temperament is certainly genetic.

[Christina]

I believe its a combination of both genetics & environment. Also don't think there is any such thing as perfect temperament. What suits one person in a dog may not suit another.

Obviously most people want a dog with a nice nature but I hope they never discover the answer to this precisely. Too open to misuse. There are previous threads on this.

[Steve]

Goddard has done some good stuff on this relating to selection of traits re guide dogs. He says selecting for guide dogs is about 0.44 genetic.

If you're talking about what a dog does when its working under instinct /pressure such as when a drive cuts in that takes over all training and intervention such as the dog which cant resist following a scent or cant resist chasing the neighbour's cat ,how it will react to certain types of training better than another etc then I say that is genetic.

Ive watched whilst puppies at 6 weeks have been vaccinated and microchipped 3 different breeds. Two litters stand and take it without much reaction the third - everyone of them tried to turn and have a go at the vet .

My Maremma pups are under foot and by 5 weeks there are some which consistently want to drape themselves across your feet when you are sitting and others who consistently prefer to stay back and watch from a bit of a difference. If Im selecting a pup for a specific home pet or working those are the type of things I take into account when I am placing them and selecting which one I will keep for breeding. You would describe the temperament as being more amiable of one over the other way before any learned behaviour comes in.

Some of my beagle pups by 7 weeks will literally head butt a concrete fence post as they are scenting and dont look up or notice anything else. I can train them to scent and trail by 8 weeks I do exercises with them to test that and all of them can be taught to find a glove with a scent on it etc but not all of them want to do it and stay focused .The ones which stay focused and want to scent are usually a bit more of a challenge to live with regardless of the training they are exposed to. That's the one that isnt as happy to stay snuggled up with the kids all day but prefers to be exploring the yard with its nose when its given the choice. I can and have altered the amount of that drive a pup is born with by my selection of the parents.

So if thats what you are describing as temperament I reckon its 100% .

[persephone]

Newborn pups show differences in behaviour ... some are noisy , or demanding, or forceful, or placid , or are easily stressed ....

I agree with temperament being genetic .

[Vickie]

I think temperament is probably 100% genetic too.

Because of this, I feel the 'basic' temperament variations you see in a litter are directly linked to the amount of variation of temperaments in the first couple of generations in the pedigree.

I am lucky enough to know most of the siblings, all of the parents & many of the grandparents in the 3 litters that my 4 BC come from. I am also lucky to have been very involved with the 3 litters from birth and through the placing at 8 weeks. All have been bred for sheep work.

As far as 'basic' temperament goes, I have seen very little variation in any of the 3 litters. I believe pretty much any owner could have taken any pup and ended up with pretty much the same dog.

Corvus suggested that the fallout rate for working dogs is high because people don't know how to breed for the right temperament.I disagree. 2 dogs can have a very similar 'basic' temperament at birth/6 weeks /10 years but different working traits. Working traits, although probably fixed at birth, can only be assessed with work. They cannot be assessed at 6/8 weeks when placement happens. Combined with different maturation rates (or readiness to take work), you are probably looking at 18 months-2 years before you can really assess what you have.

And then there's the environmental factors...

It's all so complex...

Edited June 8, 2013 by Vickie

[*kirty*]

I think a lot of it is genetic. I see a lot of customs dogs and guide dogs at work - all pedigree Labradors, all selectively bred and raised. But the difference is like apples and oranges. The customs dogs come barrelling in, jumping all over everyone, very excitable and boisterous. The guide dogs are much more sensible and calm. And these are dogs who haven't had any training yet, they've just been with puppy raisers.

[Rebanne]

yes I believe it is

[BC Crazy]

This is such an interesting thread. I have a very curly question for anyone who is interested regarding this very issue. Genetic or not genetic???

I have often wondered what happened to my girl to cause her to be so reactive. Is it genetic? Did something happen upset her as a youngster?

Both her parents show NO signs of anxious behaviour.

My boy has the very same lines up until the very last mating, Stella's mum is different. Sonny has a beautiful temp.I went to see Stella at 8 weeks with several

of her litter mates at a show. None of them have any anxiety issues . Stella showed no signs of anxiety etc. Just one very happy, confident puppy.

When I brought her home at 11 weeks it was a very different story She was a fierce resource guarder. Showed sign's of this & anxiety immediately. Some of these traits

I have been able to train out of her, ie resource guarding, others by giving her confidence, training & meds but she will always be fragile. She has carried a soft toy in her

mouth from day one, all the time & sucks on it when she is tired or her anxiety levels get too much for her. She is just VERY different.

So, is this genetic, to my knowledge NO. I have had lengthy discussions with her breeder & her ancestors breeders down both sides of her lines, came up with nothing. So she is a

bit of a mystery. Could it be that something frightened her so badly in those 3 week's between the time I visited her to the time I took her home, that she never recovered?

Or is it that she is just one of those pup's, the odd one out in her litter. If that be the case then why did she not show signs of this when I spent hours with her on my visit?

By NO means am I intentionally taking over or side tracking this tread. I just thought my case could open yet another side to this whole genetic/ environmental discussion.

Edited June 9, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Santo66]

Temperament is 100% genetic.

Behaviour is the result of environmental influences on temperament.

When you've known many generations in your lines, you begin to see that temperament is certainly genetic.

Yep.......that's correct :)

I have often wondered what, if anything, happen to my girl to cause her to be so reactive. Is it genetic?

Environment can trigger it, but genetics carries it. Say a dog scared of the car after braking hard and the dog falling off the seat. The seat fall scared the dog, but nerve weakness in the dog didn't allow the dog to get over the ordeal which is a genetic weakness.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Santo66

[BC Crazy]

Hmmm yes I see Santo66. That makes sense to me. So if the dog is genetically 'sound' he would of bounced back so to speak from his seat fall & regained his confidence IYO.

[puddles]

Temperament is 100% genetic.

Behaviour is the result of environmental influences on temperament.

When you've known many generations in your lines, you begin to see that temperament is certainly genetic.

I like this comment :)

I've got two dogs, the first is a 'purebred' Aussie cattle dog from a Pet shop, before I was introduced to the world of pedigrees and back yard breeders! While he looks like a cattle dog, his temperamant is something else, thinking bully breed of some sort. He is gentle soft and just a nice dog. Because I am fully aware of the issues of snapping with cattle dogs, I made sure to get that out of him when he was young, and now, no snappy issues!

My next is a pedigree Aussie cattle dog. I treated her exactly the same as him, however, no matter what I did about her snapping, it's still in her. When she gets super excited, she just can't control herself and will snap and mouth, more mouth than snap, but it's definitely still there! Not with me, but with other people, as she is quite a dominant dog with others if given a chance.

So, the stereotype of snappy cattle dog is certainly there. A temperament fault, I think not. I know what cattle dogs are about, and I'm fine with this, I just manage it how it needs to be managed. When they're working its certainly not a fault. For a city person who cannot exercise or train them, sure, it's a fault, but why would someone such as this get a cattle dog anyways.

I think in some instances, Temperament is definitely genetic, whether it be parent specific or breed specific, it's just 'in' them!

[Weasels]

As Corvus mentioned, newborn puppies have still had an influence of environment. Maternal stress levels, nutrition, maternal effect genes, and other epigenetic factors have all affected a pup in utero. The effect is lower than after birth, but still present.

If you define temperament as the genetic component of behaviour then ,circularly, it is. You can never ever untangle genetics from environment for practical purposes though.

Edited June 9, 2013 by TheLBD

[Santo66]

Hmmm yes I see Santo66. That makes sense to me. So if the dog is genetically 'sound' he would of bounced back so to speak from his seat fall & regained his confidence IYO.

Yes. Recovery from ordeal is the genetic strength of the dog allowing it to bounce back.

You can never ever untangle genetics from environment for practical purposes though.

Yes you can absolutely. When the lines are known and particular line or mating pair/dog produces a particular trait, that's genetic and can be identified. Problem is, breeders often lie about known traits especially faulty traits like, "oh never had that before in any of my litters" oh really

Edited June 9, 2013 by Santo66