A Cautionary Tale About People Getting Things Very Wrong

[_PL_]

Yes it is. I'm not here to argue.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Yes it is. I'm not here to argue.

And nor was I but I'm not going to be bullied (pardon the pun) and nor should anyone else. This is a public forum, it's for posting issues, stories, news articles and so on. I'm heavily involved in rescue, have been for many years so it's not as if I've owned just a couple of dogs in my life and it's been quite sheltered.

For the last fortnight I've been assisting a person who is rehoming their 2 little dogs, they feel they are no longer safe to walk them around. Their words to me were "how come there are so many dangerous dogs around" They are from Europe and have moved here in 2011.

I said what sort of dogs are you talking about? The answer was "Staffies". They have retrieved one of their dogs out of a Staffy's mouth in one dog park and had to constantly pick their dogs up just walking around the area due to many loose dogs with idiot owners. They've stopped going to dog parks but still can't walk down the road.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg of the calls I get week in, week out from owners having issues with Staffy type dogs. Yes, another "anecdote" but it is still true.

And not all the owners have small dogs. Another owner that called to apply for one of my dogs recently has a Ridgeback. He said they are constantly bothered by off leash Staffies. At least they are not going to consume a Ridgeback I guess.

All this in the inner part of Sydney ...

[Dame Aussie]

Yes it is. I'm not here to argue.

Neither am I, but I didn't see anything in my post that deserved to be laughed at.

Some people think bull breeds are an issue, some don't, both are entitled to their opinions, even though only one was backed up with actual figures.

[kayla1]

These discussions go around in circles.

The data is incomplete, as corvus said, so you cannot rely on it to conclude there is not a problem.

We have anecdotal evidence that suggests there is some problem at least in certain areas.

We know there are breed differences in terms of temperament and potential damage that can be done, and that irresponsible owners may be attracted to certain breeds.

So instead of denying that any problem exists or arguing that bull breeds are the same as any other dog, perhaps someone can tell us more about the positive steps being taken?

[Plan B]

So, instead of looking at the statistics and data as we know it, regardless of how incomplete or unreliable it may be, we're going to look to anecdotal evidence from a select few to tell us there is a major problem with bull breeds in this country? And then we're going to sit around and discuss the positive steps to take so that this problem, that doesn't actually exist, is solved?

I just don't know how someone is supposed to show you the positive steps being taken on a non-issue?

Look to rescues, advocate groups, educational programs, maybe? Other countries that have safer communities and implement models that do what they say on the tin (like the Calgary Model). They're mostly all about responsible ownership of dogs (as a whole).

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

So, instead of looking at the statistics and data as we know it, regardless of how incomplete or unreliable it may be,

So the statistics and data being quoted is "incomplete" and/or "unreliable?

Why would looking at statistics and data that are incomplete or unreliable be any more realistic than any other source of information?

Even if the statistics weren't incomplete or unreliable, statistics can still give a false representation of a situation. As an example, the Government provides us with statistics that show there is low unemployment. These statistics don't cover people working part time when they want/need full time employment so they are flawed.

I do agree that responsible dog ownership is the answer. If rescue groups are rehoming ANY breed - that has a propensity to escape and/or commonly has aggression issues with other animals, then they should be taking extreme care and doing homechecks to ensure that the fencing provided is adequate and ensuring the owners are responsible and aware.

Far too often I've been told that there is 6ft secure fencing all the way around to find, upon inspection of the home, that this is not the case.

I know for a fact that there are some rescue groups that do not do home inspections or take sufficient care when placing. I often wonder how many of their rehomed dogs get out and end up in the pound again.

[Plan B]

Why would looking at statistics and data that are incomplete or unreliable be any more realistic than any other source of information?

Because they are simply more credible than what someone on a forum is saying about their own experience - an opinion that isn't backed up with recorded data, that doesn't take into account many factors, nor does is include the experiences of the majority across the country.

[kayla1]

So, instead of looking at the statistics and data as we know it, regardless of how incomplete or unreliable it may be, we're going to look to anecdotal evidence from a select few to tell us there is a major problem with bull breeds in this country? And then we're going to sit around and discuss the positive steps to take so that this problem, that doesn't actually exist, is solved?

I just don't know how someone is supposed to show you the positive steps being taken on a non-issue?

Look to rescues, advocate groups, educational programs, maybe? Other countries that have safer communities and implement models that do what they say on the tin (like the Calgary Model). They're mostly all about responsible ownership of dogs (as a whole).

If you read my previous posts you'll see I have never stated there is a 'major problem with bull breeds in this country'.

The fact that you still think this is a 'non-issue' says it all. Unfortunately statements such as that are not going to positively influence public perception.

Good luck to those who are taking positive, proactive steps.

[tdierikx]

The thing is dogmad - for each of your anecdotes or experiences regarding bull breed type dogs, there are many other people who will happily share their anecdotes and experiences about other breeds.

Unless there is actual independent recorded data indicating a problem with any particular breed or mix thereof it is actually going to be very hard to declare a "winner" in this debate. You will stick by your experiences, and others will stick by theirs... and we'll keep going around in circles...

Personally, I don't think that there is a "bull breed" problem - but will concede that there are some owners of larger breed dogs that really shouldn't own any dog... but I don't think those owners are in majority numbers in this country.

Banning particular breeds or their mixes from being owned is not going to achieve anything... but prosecuting to the full extent of the law those who do not show any regard for others by letting their dogs (of ANY breed) become a menace might bring about changes more effectively.

T.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

T - I couldn't agree more. This debate will go round in circles.

My original post was nothing to do with the bull breed debate. If the breed had been ANYTHING but a bull breed, this thread would not have degenerated into a debate on bull breeds. Right from the start the personal attacks began simply because I had related a story that included the words "Am Staff" which a DOL member was even able to correlate - no I hadn't made it up.

Initially the thread had responses that actually related to the story in my first post. It was interesting and potentially useful to anyone thinking about adopting siblings OF ANY BREED or people who might be thinking they wouldn't need to put any effort into training etc. It was an indictment on poor breeding/rehoming practices.

Now it is not. No doubt we will continue to see threads degenerate into the future because I will not be bullied or harassed into no longer posting anything on this forum because the bull breed brigade won't like it. I hope that no other DOL members will feel unable to post and mention a bull breed if it is involved.

This IS a public forum. Those members who have turned this thread into the debate are NOT the DOL police. They are NOT moderators. The attitudes they display don't help their cause.

Edited June 19, 2013 by dogmad

[tdierikx]

Well then - back to the original topic...

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to allow someone to adopt/buy 2 siblings from the same litter - as long as the people adopting are responsible owners and will work on ensuring that any issues that may arise are minimised. There are plenty of people who own littermates and don't have issues - possibly many more than those who do have issues arise.

ANY 2 dogs in any multi dog household - regardless of age or relation status - can develop issues with each other. I'll concede that this seems to happen more with 2 females than with 2 males... I've got 2 females here that are 6 years apart in age and totally different breed mixes that I have to keep separate. Sometimes it just happens that 2 dogs just decide not to get on any more...

When I had Rotties, I had 3 females and 2 males - never had an issue - even when one of the females were in season and the males were intact... blind luck, good management, good temperaments?

I must say that when I had at least one calm tempered male dog in my pack, the females seemed to be more even tempered with each other... has anyone else had a similar experience?

T.

[korbin13]

Well, to be picky and technical, this is NOT a public forum. It is owned by a person who has the ability to set rules about what we can and can't talk about :laugh:

[Mummamia]

T - I couldn't agree more. This debate will go round in circles.

My original post was nothing to do with the bull breed debate. If the breed had been ANYTHING but a bull breed, this thread would not have degenerated into a debate on bull breeds. Right from the start the personal attacks began simply because I had related a story that included the words "Am Staff" which a DOL member was even able to correlate - no I hadn't made it up.

Initially the thread had responses that actually related to the story in my first post. It was interesting and potentially useful to anyone thinking about adopting siblings OF ANY BREED or people who might be thinking they wouldn't need to put any effort into training etc. It was an indictment on poor breeding/rehoming practices.

Now it is not. No doubt we will continue to see threads degenerate into the future because I will not be bullied or harassed into no longer posting anything on this forum because the bull breed brigade won't like it. I hope that no other DOL members will feel unable to post and mention a bull breed if it is involved.

This IS a public forum. Those members who have turned this thread into the debate are NOT the DOL police. They are NOT moderators. The attitudes they display don't help their cause.

This topic has been very interesting for me to read and I return regularly to see the next post... It shows clearly how a few people on the site repeatedly focus in on something they want to talk about and not comment on the original post... I understood that your original post was not an attempt to bash any breed but you were simply providing the readers with something to think about when deciding on whether to rehome dogs from the same litter... They should way up the risks... I've already been on the receiving end of this and read (with amusement mostly) as one small point can rile people up so much they miss the entire point of my 'opinion and personal experiences and make judgements on what I 'believe' and what my experiences have taught me... Good on you for standing up for yourself...

Perhaps people could, rather than missing the point, begin their own thread with their own opinions on an issue and then argue amongst themselves and allow those of us with a more open mind and ability to see the big picture appreciate your personal experience...

Edited June 19, 2013 by Mummamia

[sandgrubber]

litter mates of the same sex ( especially females) and mother /daughter combinations are generally the one's that end in disaster.

As an example, here are my two girls, a 9 yr old bitch and her 3 yr old daughter. They groom eachother regularly and have never had a squabble. The old girl has lived with several of her girl pups. She gets milk when her pups have pups and by five weeks, is more interested in nursing the pups than their mother is. I worry more about separation grief than fighting with the bitches I've raised together.

I've run on girl pups together with no problem, and placed siblings together, with no problems.

I don't deny that there are sometimes problems, but in nature, canine packs are usually made up of parents and their pups, and it is not uncommon for sibling bitches to be in the same pack as their mothers. Sibling rivalry is probably present in some packs . . . but so, too, is cooperation between siblings.

I would guess that the problems are worse with some breeds than others, but that there is quite a bit of difference between breeds.

I agree with Steve, breeders can do a lot to avoid such problems by selecting for 'civil' temperament and observing temperament before they place pups in a home.

Edited June 20, 2013 by sandgrubber

[~Anne~]

Well, to be picky and technical, this is NOT a public forum. It is owned by a person who has the ability to set rules about what we can and can't talk about :laugh:

To be just as picky and technical as you, the word public in this instance refers to it being openly accessible to the public. You don't need to be a member to read this thread.