A Cautionary Tale About People Getting Things Very Wrong

[BoxerB]

Think how popular the "staffy" type (or their mixes) are... you don't have to go far in any direction to find one or more, yes?

Then look at how many reports there have been about those types of dogs doing harm...

Correlation is that the actual number of those type of dogs being a complete menace is actually a rather small percentage of the population of those types out there.

The main problem is that not everyone chips or registers their dog - thus, the actual numbers of any particular breed or breed mix is actually an unknown quantity... *sigh*

T.

Actually, i think you'll find you're quite wrong on that one.

Below is a view of a NSW govt report which ranks both pure and cross breed dogs based on the rate of attack per 100 dogs. What you'll find is that "staffy" type dogs actually do feature quite high on the report.

Yes i know this is going to cause a 1 billion page argument about who identifies cross breeds etc etc, but for now its what we have as official statistics, and if you have a better source, point me to it - not being a smart ar$e actually interested.

Oh and I'm not anti bull breed, i love them to death, family has staffy's i have a boxer, i love them. BUT, I'm not goign to kid myself that everything about these dogs is hype with no truth to it.

Anyway

Link http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/documents/Information/Council%20Reports%20of%20Dog%20Attacks%20in%20NSW%202010-11.pdf

Summary

The five pure breeds that were responsible for the highest number of attacks in 2010/11 were the Bull Terrier (Staffordshire), Australian Cattle Dog, German Shepherd Dog, American Staffordshire Terrier and Rottweiler. These breeds were involved in 1,770 attacks, which represents half of all pure breed dogs involved in attacks. The same breeds were the most heavily represented in dog attacks in 2009/10 and with the same ranking.

The five cross breeds that were responsible for the highest number of attacks in 2010/11 were the Bull Terrier (Staffordshire), Australian Cattle Dog, Bullmastiff, Mastiff and Australian Kelpie breeds. These breeds were involved in 973 attacks, which represents 46% of all cross breed dogs involved in attacks.

[grizabella]

I don't see how mentioning the breed is an issue. The problem that was pointed out was that the owner bit off way more than they could chew in taking on two dogs of a powerful breed that the owner didn't do the right thing by. I don't believe the OP was saying that there was anything wrong with the breed, just something wrong with the breed in the hands of someone who is unwilling to raise their dogs correctly.

[BlackJaq]

I think having a large percentage of dead beat owners who don't confine them might contribute to these numbers.

ETA: I agree, btw, that some breeds can be prone to not getting along with other dogs unless well socialized and well managed. This includes some bull breeds but also many other breeds, including, from my own experience, GSDs and Weimaraners.

Still, all dogs need responsible owners to manage them

Edited June 17, 2013 by BlackJaq

[_PL_]

Personally I'm getting really fed up with every single thread that mentions 'bull breed' turns into a freaking circus.

There's never a discussion. It's all How Very Dare You and trot out the stats. Hands off our dogs they are angels. Maybe you should collectively try to decide what point you're trying to get across. If someone says they've had a problem with a 'staffy' ...oh it's the owner's fault, oh it's the breeder's fault, oh it's the victim's, oh it's the council's fault or they're just told they have a bad attitude and it could just have easily been a maltese involved.

It's nice to see the dogs defended when they can't speak for themselves but seriously these threads do you NO favours and just make people not bother to comment because they get brow beaten. It doesn't matter one iota if the stats tell you everyone is wrong. Public opinion doesn't work that way. And average member of the public reading these threads are just 20 minutes poorer and no more enlightened. It's getting old and boring and not getting any bull breed one step further.

I'd much rather read positive steps like the ones Wobbly has taken than see one more member crucified for putting a particular word into their post.

[OSoSwift]

I have owned Bull breeds and Dobes and Rottis. Now I own WHippets. Any dog that runs at mine worries me, but the more powerful larger dogs are the ones that really worry me. One decent bite and they are dead. So if I see a dog that resembles a bull breed/large breed I am on high alert. IF I see a smaller breed for sure I am on alert, but not he oh shit type of alert.

My Stafford got in a couple fo fights in his life, none started by him, twice the other dog harassed him he tried to remove himself, then he went snap, in around 5 seconds he had the dog by the throat and within a few more it was turning purple. I am under no illusions that they would not have died had Myself or my husband not been around to cut his air off and remove him. It was not his fault but the point is when he reacted it was deadly.

My Dobes had a fight with each other one day, lasted a few mintues as I was little way away and it took me a little time to get back. Many bite marks, reasonable amount of blood no vital organ or blood vessel injuries, no sutures required.

My Whippets had a bingle one day, two tooth holes no vet trip, no worries.

I know which breed I would prefer to have to defend my dogs against.

Bleat on all you like about how wonderful bull breeds are, they are, they are fantastic dogs and I love them, however I am not so blinded that I cannot see the fact that IF they do have an altercation the consequences can be devastating. So yes there are many fantastic owners and many fantastic dogs that are of the various Bull breeds. That does not stop me being very protective of my dogs who can die from one bite. Unfortunately they attract dead beats quite often and that is where the problem lies.

Edited June 18, 2013 by OSoSwift

[kiesha09]

Brilliant Post OsoSwift

[iggy mum]

Personally I'm getting really fed up with every single thread that mentions 'bull breed' turns into a freaking circus.

There's never a discussion. It's all How Very Dare You and trot out the stats. Hands off our dogs they are angels. Maybe you should collectively try to decide what point you're trying to get across. If someone says they've had a problem with a 'staffy' ...oh it's the owner's fault, oh it's the breeder's fault, oh it's the victim's, oh it's the council's fault or they're just told they have a bad attitude and it could just have easily been a maltese involved.

It's nice to see the dogs defended when they can't speak for themselves but seriously these threads do you NO favours and just make people not bother to comment because they get brow beaten. It doesn't matter one iota if the stats tell you everyone is wrong. Public opinion doesn't work that way. And average member of the public reading these threads are just 20 minutes poorer and no more enlightened. It's getting old and boring and not getting any bull breed one step further.

I'd much rather read positive steps like the ones Wobbly has taken than see one more member crucified for putting a particular word into their post.

My thoughts exactly! I love bull breeds, have had them myself in the past, but am also aware that they are probably the biggest concern for me in regard to possible attacks on other dogs and IMO that isn't because of the breed but because of the dead beat owners. I too am sick of all the "blame game" that goes on in some of these threads.

I have owned Bull breeds and Dobes and Rottis. Now I own WHippets. Any dog that runs at mine worries me, but the more powerful larger dogs are the ones that really worry me. One decent bite and they are dead. So if I see a dog that resembles a bull breed/large breed I am on high alert. IF I see a smaller breed for sure I am on alert, but not he oh shit type of alert.

My Stafford got in a couple fo fights in his life, none started by him, twice the other dog harassed him he tried to remove himself, then he went snap, in around 5 seconds he had the dog by the throat and within a few more it was turning purple. I am under no illusions that they would not have died had Myself or my husband not been around to cut his air off and remove him. It was not his fault but the point is when he reacted it was deadly.

My Dobes had a fight with each other one day, lasted a few mintues as I was little way away and it took me a little time to get back. Many bite marks, reasonable amount of blood no vital organ or blood vessel injuries, no sutures required.

My Whippets had a bingle one day, two tooth holes no vet trip, no worries.

I know which breed I would prefer to have to defend my dogs against.

Bleat on all you like about how wonderful bull breeds are, they are, they are fantastic dogs and I love them, however I am not so blinded that I cannot see the fact that IF they do have an altercation the consequences can be devastating. So yes there are many fantastic owners and many fantastic dogs that are of the various Bull breeds. That does not stop me being very protective of my dogs who can die from one bite. Unfortunately they attract dead beats quite often and that is where the problem lies.

Well said OSS, I think most bully breed dogs are to die for, the biggest sooks ever but as with any breed, big and small alike, there are good and bad and trained and untrained individuals. I think it would be nice to see if new/first time bully breed owners were required to go to some form of induction/training so they have a clearer understanding of the needs of their chosen breed. And I only specify bully breeds in this last sentence because they have become so popular these days. It would be great to see this happen with all breeds really.

[Wobbly]

Bleat on all you like about how wonderful bull breeds are, they are, they are fantastic dogs and I love them, however I am not so blinded that I cannot see the fact that IF they do have an altercation the consequences can be devastating. So yes there are many fantastic owners and many fantastic dogs that are of the various Bull breeds. That does not stop me being very protective of my dogs who can die from one bite. Unfortunately they attract dead beats quite often and that is where the problem lies.

Love this post!!! Fights happen with all breeds, but damage done can vary widely. I'd never let Jarrah play with other dogs, she's shown only polite behaviour toward other dogs for 5 years or more now, she's never damaged another dog, but still, I am only looking at Rally-O for obedience coz it's on leash. I want her leashed around other excited dogs, always, this may not be the case for Bully owners who are more competent trainers than I, but I feel for myself I need to stay well within the bounds of my training limitations, with great power comes great responsibility.

[kayla1]

dogmad... when I walk my large bull breed puppy, I have a similar experience to you - except the dogs that tend to rush out of yards to have a go at her are small breeds...

Should I correlate those experiences to mean that small breed dogs are more likely to be aggressive, or that small breed dog owners are lax in the training/socialisation of their chosen breed of dogs? Or would that be an unfair assumption to make?

On the very few occasions we do meet another bull breed dog when out and about, without exception they have all been more interested in playing with my dog or me, and are lovely wiggly bum cuddle magnets.

I live in an area where the number of bull breeds owned far outweighs ownership of the smaller breeds - and yes, many of those bull breeds are described by their owners as "pitties"... *sigh*

The one and only time I saw a large bull breed dog (AmStaff) loose in the street, I stopped and approached her and asked her to show me her home... she took me into a yard with an open side gate and I knocked on the door to let her owner know she was out. She and he were lovely, and I got lots of bully breed loving from her and their other bull breed girl... lol!

T.

I don't agree with any dog allowed to roam the streets, but I'd feel far more confident facing a 5kg fluffy than the 50kg aggressive American bulldog that used to live up the road (the first dog I've come across that scared the crap out of me).

But all that says is that there are problems in some areas and not others. It sounds like you don't have an issue with bull breeds in your area, but I certainly do in my area.

I'd much rather read positive steps like the ones Wobbly has taken than see one more member crucified for putting a particular word into their post.

Absolutely, we hear so little of the positive steps being taken because they are drowned out by the chorus of denials and the blame game.

[Pailin]

I have also seen a few cases of siblings gone WRONG. There seems to be a higher instance of competition in the dynamic and whilst some can co exist fine, it can just as easily not work out well.

I personally would NEVER adopt (or buy) siblings in any breed, but definitely not in American Staffordshire Terriers who are generally a strong willed, confident breed that ** can ** have a tendency to dominance and DA. Huge fan of the breed but owners, or potential owners, need to be realistic about the challenges in the same way that Husky owners need to be realistic about recall. I think matching personalities of any breed of dogs in a pack is very important and picking accurate temperaments in puppies is difficult and very easy to end up with two dominant, confident temperaments who are bound to clash.

As an example, I have a mixed breed female dog who can be a little dominant sometimes. It is not often, majority of the time she will submit but she won't back down to an overly dominant female dog which leads to the other female starting a fight. It is a trait that is there but that I would not have known when she was a puppy, so when/if I choose to add another dog/puppy into the mix, I will be looking for a submissive male. It is easier to know her temperament as an adult dog than as a pup and it is easier to pick a good fit for her, a submissive pup/adult male, and introduce him in and maintain his submissive role if she is already established as the higher dog. That is very difficult to do with siblings and add in a competitive breed/nature and it is a recipe for disaster.

On the other comments re: Bull breeds etc, I swear I must be in the minority, I have not ever had an incident with a bull breed and I live in a low socioeconomic area where you would assume Bull breeds would abound. My girl has been rushed 4 times in her life, 2 fights, minimal injuries. Large ridgeback X, 2 boxers, a kelpie with a SWF and a GSD.

[Diva]

Love this post!!! Fights happen with all breeds, but damage done can vary widely. I'd never let Jarrah play with other dogs, she's shown only polite behaviour toward other dogs for 5 years or more now, she's never damaged another dog, but still, I am only looking at Rally-O for obedience coz it's on leash. I want her leashed around other excited dogs, always, this may not be the case for Bully owners who are more competent trainers than I, but I feel for myself I need to stay well within the bounds of my training limitations, with great power comes great responsibility.

Don't quite understand this, only the low Rally O levels are on leash. But good on you for understanding your limitations.

I don't have a particular problem with bull breeds, but I have a huge issue with off lead or roaming aggressive dogs. It used to be that most loose dogs around here were indifferent or friendly toward other dogs being walked and I didn't worry about them, but not anymore, the default response around here in the last few years is aggression and I hate running into them on a walk.

Those who think the problem is overstated are wrong in my experience. Attacks by loose dogs on people are very rare, but attacks by loose dogs on on-leash dogs are not rare at all. I would like to see leash laws rigourously enforced, with strong penalties for non-compliance and for owners with dogs that repeatedly get out of their inadequate fencing. I don't need BSL to make me safe and I don't need need new regulations. I just need the existing leash laws enforced.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Diva

[frufru]

Some excellent posts at Last!!!!! Agree Diva - I have been rushed so many times by roaming dogs I have lost count.

Personally, I would much rather face a couple of roamers of the smaller variety that I know I can do a bit of damage to with a kick than anything medium or large

Edited June 18, 2013 by frufru

[Poodle wrangler]

I've seen someone put in hospital by a bite from fighting Maltese.

They bit part of a finger off + nasty infection needing antibiotics in hospital.

Bad owner thread, I think.

Our family had staffy/ bullbreed cross rescue dogs when there were no allergies.

One was a nasty dog (from council pound, no temperament testing).

Probably due to being mistreated when younger (he was PTS).

The bullbreed part just makes them a muscular, strong dog to deal with if things do go wrong, as they can in any breed.

[melzawelza]

Personally I'm getting really fed up with every single thread that mentions 'bull breed' turns into a freaking circus.

There's never a discussion. It's all How Very Dare You and trot out the stats. Hands off our dogs they are angels. Maybe you should collectively try to decide what point you're trying to get across. If someone says they've had a problem with a 'staffy' ...oh it's the owner's fault, oh it's the breeder's fault, oh it's the victim's, oh it's the council's fault or they're just told they have a bad attitude and it could just have easily been a maltese involved.

It's nice to see the dogs defended when they can't speak for themselves but seriously these threads do you NO favours and just make people not bother to comment because they get brow beaten. It doesn't matter one iota if the stats tell you everyone is wrong. Public opinion doesn't work that way. And average member of the public reading these threads are just 20 minutes poorer and no more enlightened. It's getting old and boring and not getting any bull breed one step further.

I'd much rather read positive steps like the ones Wobbly has taken than see one more member crucified for putting a particular word into their post.

If someone makes false and inflammatory claims, such as that 'there is a major problem with bull breeds in this country', then someone else is going to pull up the information that shows that their claim is incorrect. Simple as that. There is no dog bite epidemic (ALL dogs included) and the likelihood of being bitten by a dog is incredibly low, for ALL breeds.

No one said all bull breeds are angels and are never at fault so I don't know where you're getting that from. The point was simply made that the overwhelming majority of ALL DOGS are not involved in any sort of incident at all, and that Bull Breeds are just dogs, like all the others. Yes, they're strong and a med-large size so there is an extra level of responsibility there than say, a poodle, but there is a list as long as my arm of breeds that would go into that same category.

They aren't some magical beast that are unlike other dogs, resulting in there being a 'major problem' with them. To see 'dog people' perpetuating the myth of dog bite epidemics and that there is a 'dog problem' in this country is quite sad. 'Trotting out the stats' actually has people reconsider what they may inherently believe as true.

Edited June 19, 2013 by melzawelza

[corvus]

Except that there actually are no stats. We don't know how many dogs are biting, how often, and what breeds they are. We only know that some dogs are biting and what breeds some of those dogs were. We can't know what is not reported or collated.

[tdierikx]

Doesn't help that the media will only report an attack if they can claim the dog is of a certain "heritage".

As for the dumpage rate of certain "types" of dog... ummm... SWF's and other terriers are just as numerous in pounds as the "staffy" types - and many for exactly the same reasons as the "staffy" types, lack of socialisation, etc...

No owner of any large breed dog is completely unaware of the level of damage their dog could do if it decides to bite anyone or anything - something which some owners of smaller breeds that have a tendency to bite don't seem to think may be a problem... the "oh, he's only small, so the damage won't be that bad if he bites" attitude is not appropriate either. Regardless of size or ability to cause harm, NO dog should be allowed to be snappy or aggressive in public.

Before I became involved in rescue and met many really nice small breed dogs, I had a complete fear of them - due to way too many of them actually having a go at me. I have never had that level of apprehension for larger breeds of dog because my experiences with them had all been good. Now that I've had a good deal of training and hands on experience with a good cross section of numerous breeds and their mixes, I'm also MUCH more aware of a dog's body language, etc, but am still much more leery of a strange small breed dog than of the larger ones.

Personally I don't condone ANY dog biting, and would be completely mortified if one of mine had that propensity - I'd give it wings rather than have the possibility of it hurting anyone... and I'm sure that most large breed dog owners would feel the same.

T.

[_PL_]

Personally I'm getting really fed up with every single thread that mentions 'bull breed' turns into a freaking circus.

There's never a discussion. It's all How Very Dare You and trot out the stats. Hands off our dogs they are angels. Maybe you should collectively try to decide what point you're trying to get across. If someone says they've had a problem with a 'staffy' ...oh it's the owner's fault, oh it's the breeder's fault, oh it's the victim's, oh it's the council's fault or they're just told they have a bad attitude and it could just have easily been a maltese involved.

It's nice to see the dogs defended when they can't speak for themselves but seriously these threads do you NO favours and just make people not bother to comment because they get brow beaten. It doesn't matter one iota if the stats tell you everyone is wrong. Public opinion doesn't work that way. And average member of the public reading these threads are just 20 minutes poorer and no more enlightened. It's getting old and boring and not getting any bull breed one step further.

I'd much rather read positive steps like the ones Wobbly has taken than see one more member crucified for putting a particular word into their post.

If someone makes false and inflammatory claims, such as that 'there is a major problem with bull breeds in this country', then someone else is going to pull up the information that shows that their claim is incorrect. Simple as that. There is no dog bite epidemic (ALL dogs included) and the likelihood of being bitten by a dog is incredibly low, for ALL breeds.

No one said all bull breeds are angels and are never at fault so I don't know where you're getting that from. The point was simply made that the overwhelming majority of ALL DOGS are not involved in any sort of incident at all, and that Bull Breeds are just dogs, like all the others. Yes, they're strong and a med-large size so there is an extra level of responsibility there than say, a poodle, but there is a list as long as my arm of breeds that would go into that same category.

They aren't some magical beast that are unlike other dogs, resulting in there being a 'major problem' with them. To see 'dog people' perpetuating the myth of dog bite epidemics and that there is a 'dog problem' in this country is quite sad. 'Trotting out the stats' actually has people reconsider what they may inherently believe as true.

False and inflammatory in your opinion, possibly many many others. And proven or disproven with incomplete statistical data. Data which in the long run doesn't matter either way because if it did, breed specific laws would have ended with the greyhound.

You may think I'm arguing with you, I'm not. I'm talking about free discussion being inhibited because of the way these threads deteriorate and members being singled out for using the wrong word or having a contrasting opinion than the ones people prefer to hear. Your opinion is listened to, it's polite to acknowledge others'. Shouting people down doesn't change their minds.

[Dame Aussie]

Who has shouted people down? You just said yourself everyone has the right to an opinion?

[_PL_]

:laugh: Ok.

[Dame Aussie]

Well that's mature.