A Cautionary Tale About People Getting Things Very Wrong

[Plan B]

Perhaps I can put someone in touch with you to discuss this situation Plan B because they really don't see it in the same way, you could try and convince them but they've already had too many bad experiences.

What do I need to convince them of? Bad experiences only serve to sway their opinion - but it doesn't make opinion a fact.

We do not have a bull breed problem in this country. Every statistic we have shows we don't. Especially when we don't have a dangerous dog problem in this country. What do you possibly have to back up your statements other than you own feelings?

I'm not making it up for the hell of it, I seriously wish it wasn't true.

I don't think you're making it up. I run into a lot of idiot owners. A few own staffies, a few own kelpies, a few own cattle dogs, a few own maltese. Those (and their crosses) are the top breeds I see with reckless owners attached to them on a daily basis. This doesn't tell me anything other than people can be idiots.

[kayla1]

We do not have a bull breed problem in this country. Every statistic we have shows we don't.

Which statistics are you referring to here?

[HazyWal]

See PlanB I do agree with you on the fact that there are idiot owners in every breed, my own breed as stated before but where I see dogmad coming from ( happy to be corrected, I'm not trying to start a sh*t fight) is that large and powerful dogs in the wrong hands is a nightmare and try as hard as we can, large breeds tend to fall into the wrong hands, you can't deny that. The bull breed basher tag that dogmad cops is unfair IMO, if an Italian Greyhound attacked someone, lets face it that aint gunna happen, I'm sure she would not be happy, angry at not the dog itself BUT the owner

[Plan B]

Which statistics are you referring to here?

Any. Pick one. Find a statistic that supports the position that we have a major problem with bull breeds. Heck, go with any and all breeds. I am 100% confident we have no major problem with any breed in this country because incidents of attacks across the board are so incredibly low, there cannot be a major problem. Add to the fact people go on and on about how popular bull breeds are and how many there are around and the fact incidents with them are so low shows exactly the opposite of a major problem.

When people make statements that we have a major problem with not just one breed, but a collection of breeds and crossbreeds, and cannot provide anything but personal experience to back that position up, there is no credibility. It is just opinion. And let's not forget that the problem is more often with the owner.

See PlanB I do agree with you on the fact that there are idiot owners in every breed, my own breed as stated before but where I see dogmad coming from ( happy to be corrected, I'm not trying to start a sh*t fight) is that large and powerful dogs in the wrong hands is a nightmare and try as hard as we can, large breeds tend to fall into the wrong hands, you can't deny that.

I agree completely. With great power comes great responsibility. But that's not the point I was trying to get across. My issue is with assumptions and opinions being put forth as facts and when those 'facts' are disputed, people are accused of having their head in the sand, when it's mostly the other way around. I also think that singling out one or several breeds is completely the wrong way to go about educating people about dogs.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Plan B

[_PL_]

Correct me if I'm wrong but AFAIK, 'Bull breeds' are still just terriers. Big terriers. A larger version of strong, game, scrappy, headstrong little clowns that some call anklebiters or dish mops LOL. .....truly some of the most disastrous outcomes for any dog stems from owners who don't research their breeds and honestly look at themselves and what they have to offer a dog.

I feel sorry for the pair of Amstaffs in the original post being set up to fail. After being shut in that yard, fighting with each other and receiving no stimulation or training it's not surprising they ended up basket cases.

[Wobbly]

Naw Powerlegs, it's not like that. Enlarging a Jack Russell or a Fox Terrier won't get you a Bull Breed temperament. Although BYBs being rampant and breeding for blue, or big bones or whatever the hell is in fashion today, who knows what you'll end up with temperament wise anyhow....

Am I right in thinking that 1 of the Amstaffs is available for adoption still? Hopefully it gets a good owner, I know the verdict seems to be that at the moment it wouldn't make a good pet due to the way it's been neglected in it's formative period, but with a dedicated owner you can overcome a bad start like that. I am here to vouch for that! Someone who has determined they are going to give a rescue dog a home will do their best to overcome the dog's history, it can take a lot of dedication and commitment. Helps if they're experienced with dogs I imagine, but even if not, so long as they're willing to seek appropriate help and learn, the outcome is likely to be very good for both dog and owner. Dogs being what they are, living for the most part in the moment, can really thrive in the right environment regardless of history.

Fingers crossed the remaining Amstaff gets a dedicated and committed owner. Plenty of rescue Bully breed dogs (and every other breed type) here on DOL to confirm that owners like this are in no short supply.

[kayla1]

Which statistics are you referring to here?

Any. Pick one. Find a statistic that supports the position that we have a major problem with bull breeds. Heck, go with any and all breeds. I am 100% confident we have no major problem with any breed in this country because incidents of attacks across the board are so incredibly low, there cannot be a major problem. Add to the fact people go on and on about how popular bull breeds are and how many there are around and the fact incidents with them are so low shows exactly the opposite of a major problem.

I don't need to find evidence to support a position because I haven't made any generalisations. What I'm interested in are the particular statistics you are referring to, especially when you say that incidents with bull breeds are so low that they show the opposite of a major problem? I would like to read these stats myself and form my own conclusions.

[tdierikx]

Think how popular the "staffy" type (or their mixes) are... you don't have to go far in any direction to find one or more, yes?

Then look at how many reports there have been about those types of dogs doing harm...

Correlation is that the actual number of those type of dogs being a complete menace is actually a rather small percentage of the population of those types out there.

The main problem is that not everyone chips or registers their dog - thus, the actual numbers of any particular breed or breed mix is actually an unknown quantity... *sigh*

T.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I'm currently studying and one of the areas we look at is accidents. For every actual reported accident/incident in human terms, they estimate that 600 other events have occurred that haven't been reported.

I know that many incidents in the dog world don't get reported, people don't know that they should report it to council, the other owner takes off or offers to pay for the vet bills, the dog isn't seriously injured and so on.

When I look at the temp assessments of the bull breed types in the pounds - granted I am not looking at every single pound in Australia - but am looking at NSW, VIC and even overseas, there are quite a lot of them that don't present that well with other dogs.

I talk to people most days - from all over Australia - looking to adopt dogs or foster. There's not many that haven't had some sort of issue with a bull breed type.

No amount of posts saying there's no problem will convince me that there isn't. The people aren't telling me their stories because I've prompted them, they come up in the conversations.

This thread wasn't about bull breeds - I deliberately did not put the breed in the title because I suspected what would follow if I did and guess what? So very predictable.

Edited June 17, 2013 by dogmad

[melzawelza]

Can you really be surprised though, Dogmad, when you rarely post a single post that isn't denigrating of bull breeds? I agree that your OP is more about ownership rather than the breeds itself but I knew when I opened the thread that within the first few lines I would see either the words Amstaff, Staffy or Pitbull and there they were,

Of course.

You seem to be forgetting that by saying 'bull breed' you are encorporating three distinct different breeds and all of their mixes into the one category. Add that the SBT and the Amstaff are both incredibly popular numbers-wise in this country then I'm not surprised that a lot of people have experienced 'issues' with them. There are enormous numbers of them in the country. What Plan B is trying to get across is that relative to the amount of 'bull breeds' that exist in this country, the 'attacks' are incredibly low. The amount of dogs of any breed that attack are minute, and that includes 'bull breeds'.

I also might add that almost none of your comments about bull breeds are about them actually attacking anything. They are just you complaining about them being loose and you assuming that if you didn't high tail it out of there your dogs would be attacked. It is unacceptable for any dog of any breed to be roaming loose, but just because they are there doesn't mean your dogs would have ever been attacked. That is your bias.

All the evidence on the topic disproves your strongly held belief that there is a 'major problem with bull breeds in this country'.

Edited June 17, 2013 by melzawelza

[kayla1]

Think how popular the "staffy" type (or their mixes) are... you don't have to go far in any direction to find one or more, yes?

Then look at how many reports there have been about those types of dogs doing harm...

Correlation is that the actual number of those type of dogs being a complete menace is actually a rather small percentage of the population of those types out there.

The main problem is that not everyone chips or registers their dog - thus, the actual numbers of any particular breed or breed mix is actually an unknown quantity... *sigh*

T.

Not sure if you mean reports to council or media reports, but you cannot conclude that because something is not reported that it doesn't exist.

For example, of the more serious incidents in my local area that were actually reported to council, one incident where two SBTs killed a small dog and another where a staffy mix attacked a person, neither even made the local paper. Countless other incidents were neither reported to council nor made the media.

All the evidence on the topic disproves your strongly held belief that there is a 'major problem with bull breeds in this country'.

I'd like to read these stats if you could let me know what evidence you are referring to.

[melzawelza]

Think how popular the "staffy" type (or their mixes) are... you don't have to go far in any direction to find one or more, yes?

Then look at how many reports there have been about those types of dogs doing harm...

Correlation is that the actual number of those type of dogs being a complete menace is actually a rather small percentage of the population of those types out there.

The main problem is that not everyone chips or registers their dog - thus, the actual numbers of any particular breed or breed mix is actually an unknown quantity... *sigh*

T.

Not sure if you mean reports to council or media reports, but you cannot conclude that because something is not reported that it doesn't exist.

For example, of the more serious incidents in my local area that were actually reported to council, one incident where two SBTs killed a small dog and another where a staffy mix attacked a person, neither even made the local paper. Countless other incidents were neither reported to council nor made the media.

All the evidence on the topic disproves your strongly held belief that there is a 'major problem with bull breeds in this country'.

I'd like to read these stats if you could let me know what evidence you are referring to.

Sure:

Center for Disease Control “Our research does not support breed-specific legislation”

Statement: “[The study] does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic…There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill.”

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/AVMA-CDC_Statement.pdf

Banned breeds are no more aggressive than others, new study finds

- Study of pet dogs in Spain published in The Journal of Veterinary Behavior found that the so called dangerous breeds simply behave no differently from dogs in general when it comes to behaviors likely to lead to biting.

- What the study did find was that the larger the dog (dividing the 232 dogs studied into 3 size categories), the less likely it was to exhibit aggressive behaviors toward people such as barking, growling, snarling lunging, snapping or biting. Large dogs were also less likely to behave fearfully

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/Spanish%20study%20commentary.pdf

Aggression and dogs - “no significant difference found between breeds.”

A standardized temperament test administered by veterinary behaviorists at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Hannover, Germany:

• 415 dogs of the targeted BSL breeds were tested in 21 situations of dog-human contact and 14 situations of dog-environment contact.

• 70 Golden Retrievers, having been volunteered by their owners, were also tested using this same standardized temperament test.

• There was no significant difference between the volunteered Golden Retrievers and the dogs from the targeted breeds that were required to submit to the test in the occurrence of aggressive behavior in inappropriate situations.

• Dogs of the targeted breeds signal their intent just like other dogs.

• Dogs of the targeted breeds are statistically no more likely to show inappropriate aggressive

behavior than are Golden Retrievers.

No indicators of greater dangerousness of any of the then-restricted dog breeds were found.

http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/Schalke.pdf

Pit Bulls pass the American Temperament Test Society's test with a higher than average result:

http://einhorninsurance.com/california-insurance/pit-bulls-pass-atts-temperament-test/

These are just a few that I have pulled up, there are many more on the topic. When you also consider the myriad of studies on how BSL fails to reduce dog attacks it also shows that focusing on the breed when it comes to attacks is useless and time consuming.

[kayla1]

Thanks melzawelza, but I'm not querying BSL research. I have seen plenty of evidence that BSL doesn't work so I don't need any convincing in that respect. What I'm interested in are the stats that show that incidents with bull breeds in this country are so low that they don't represent a major problem.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Can you really be surprised though, Dogmad, when you rarely post a single post that isn't denigrating of bull breeds? I agree that your OP is more about ownership rather than the breeds itself but I knew when I opened the thread that within the first few lines I would see either the words Amstaff, Staffy or Pitbull and there they were,

Of course.

You seem to be forgetting that by saying 'bull breed' you are encorporating three distinct different breeds and all of their mixes into the one category. Add that the SBT and the Amstaff are both incredibly popular numbers-wise in this country then I'm not surprised that a lot of people have experienced 'issues' with them. There are enormous numbers of them in the country. What Plan B is trying to get across is that relative to the amount of 'bull breeds' that exist in this country, the 'attacks' are incredibly low. The amount of dogs of any breed that attack are minute, and that includes 'bull breeds'.

I also might add that almost none of your comments about bull breeds are about them actually attacking anything. They are just you complaining about them being loose and you assuming that if you didn't high tail it out of there your dogs would be attacked. It is unacceptable for any dog of any breed to be roaming loose, but just because they are there doesn't mean your dogs would have ever been attacked. That is your bias.

All the evidence on the topic disproves your strongly held belief that there is a 'major problem with bull breeds in this country'.

You are still missing my point. However, yes, there was a large bull breed cross a few houses down from mine that created a real problem last year. It got out when granny opened the gate to put the bin out - the dog was dog aggressive, it's why it's original owner was getting rid of it and passed it on to my well meaning but clueless neighbours. I didn't even know the dog was there. It wasn't trained and was very strong. New owners were terrified of walking it so it never got out of the yard for a year or two.

This dog attacked a boy walking his poodle and then someone else walking their dog. Council drove round for 2 days looking for the dog. It was eventually found and euthanased as the owners couldn't comply with the dangerous dog containment requirements.

I dodged a bullet that couple of days, the dog attacked the other dogs exactly where I walked. For some reason I decided on another route that day.

I don't just imagine that my dogs might be attacked by loose dogs - they have been, several times over but by working breeds.

As you don't own small dogs I am sure you can't see my dilemma. I am not prepared to take even 2 dogs out on the lead past the houses I know that cannot contain their dogs. The fact that they are bull breeds isn't the point. If they decide to attack - which of my dogs am I going to leave on the ground? It's not a situation I am prepared to risk - would you?

You are also ignoring the fact that I'm tired of people telling me their dogs have been attacked by a staffy or pitbull type. The foster carer I had in 2011 who was walking along the road when a Pitbull rushed her and ripped her Whippet's chest open, costing $2000 in surgery and an enormous amount of pain and distress. This was in Canberra.

I'm sorry you find my posts so repetitive - personally I think you are blowing it all out of proportion and are hypersensitive - why I don't know. Like I say, if it doesn't happen, I won't be making it up. This is a public forum, we are all entitled to share our opinions, stories and the like - that's what it's here for. As for most of my posts denigrating bull breeds - hardly, that really is an exaggeration.

Put me on ignore if it bothers you but if I feel like sharing a story, whether it's about a Schnauzer, an Afghan, Greyhound or Staffy, then I will.

Edited June 17, 2013 by dogmad

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

And Melzawelza, you have also decided to ignore the main issues of my original post, to push your own barrow.

Try and comprehend the first post - the post was about people buying breeds that were not suitable for their level of knowledge, a breeder selling two siblings, the owners not putting any effort into training etc or getting desexed and then it ends in disaster. As I have said, it could have been two Jack Russells but it wasn't, it was Am Staffs. I'm not going to lie to appease you and all the other bull breed fanatics.

The negatives here were not the breed but the owners and the breeder.

Edited June 17, 2013 by dogmad

[melzawelza]

Thanks melzawelza, but I'm not querying BSL research. I have seen plenty of evidence that BSL doesn't work so I don't need any convincing in that respect. What I'm interested in are the stats that show that incidents with bull breeds in this country are so low that they don't represent a major problem.

The links I provided weren't BSL research - they were studies on aggression in bull breeds in comparison to other breeds.

But if you want even more local, relevant research then check out the info contained here:

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/documents/Information/Council%20Reports%20of%20Dog%20Attacks%20in%20NSW%202010-11.pdf

Now I'll be the first to say that attack statistics like this are not really to be relied upon, but the general gist of this will answer your questions.

My reading of this shows that if you tally up the total pure bred and cross bred SBT, AST and APBT identified in NSW you get a total of 93,637.

If you tally up the number of attacks by those three breeds and their cross breeds you get a total of 1475.

This shows that 1.5% of those three breeds and their crosses are actually involved in dog attacks. Doesn't sound like a 'major problem with bull breeds in this country' as Dogmad said earlier in the thread.

I'm well aware that many attacks aren't reported, but I'm also well aware that due to BSL and BYB there are masses and masses of bull breeds and their crosses that are unmicrochipped - thus basically evening it out.

I am also well aware (seeing as I'm a council officer and actually report these stats as part of my job), that we must report EVERY incident, regardless of if there is any injury to the other person or animal, so don't assume that all of those 1475 attacks resulted in a bite.

Despite what the media would like you to believe, there simply isn't a 'bull breed' problem or indeed a 'dog bite epidemic' at all. Dogs are incredibly safe to live with, much safer than our cars. That includes Bull Breeds.

Can we be doing more to reduce dog attacks? Absolutely - the current focus on BSL and total ignorance of proven animal management models is criminal. But it doesn't change the fact that the likelihood of being seriously injured by a dog is incredibly low.

Can you really be surprised though, Dogmad, when you rarely post a single post that isn't denigrating of bull breeds? I agree that your OP is more about ownership rather than the breeds itself but I knew when I opened the thread that within the first few lines I would see either the words Amstaff, Staffy or Pitbull and there they were,

Of course.

You seem to be forgetting that by saying 'bull breed' you are encorporating three distinct different breeds and all of their mixes into the one category. Add that the SBT and the Amstaff are both incredibly popular numbers-wise in this country then I'm not surprised that a lot of people have experienced 'issues' with them. There are enormous numbers of them in the country. What Plan B is trying to get across is that relative to the amount of 'bull breeds' that exist in this country, the 'attacks' are incredibly low. The amount of dogs of any breed that attack are minute, and that includes 'bull breeds'.

I also might add that almost none of your comments about bull breeds are about them actually attacking anything. They are just you complaining about them being loose and you assuming that if you didn't high tail it out of there your dogs would be attacked. It is unacceptable for any dog of any breed to be roaming loose, but just because they are there doesn't mean your dogs would have ever been attacked. That is your bias.

All the evidence on the topic disproves your strongly held belief that there is a 'major problem with bull breeds in this country'.

You are still missing my point. However, yes, there was a large bull breed cross a few houses down from mine that created a real problem last year. It got out when granny opened the gate to put the bin out - the dog was dog aggressive, it's why it's original owner was getting rid of it and passed it on to my well meaning but clueless neighbours. I didn't even know the dog was there. It wasn't trained and was very strong. New owners were terrified of walking it so it never got out of the yard for a year or two.

This dog attacked a boy walking his poodle and then someone else walking their dog. Council drove round for 2 days looking for the dog. It was eventually found and euthanased as the owners couldn't comply with the dangerous dog containment requirements.

I dodged a bullet that couple of days, the dog attacked the other dogs exactly where I walked. For some reason I decided on another route that day.

I don't just imagine that my dogs might be attacked by loose dogs - they have been, several times over but by working breeds.

As you don't own small dogs I am sure you can't see my dilemma. I am not prepared to take even 2 dogs out on the lead past the houses I know that cannot contain their dogs. The fact that they are bull breeds isn't the point. If they decide to attack - which of my dogs am I going to leave on the ground? It's not a situation I am prepared to risk - would you?

You are also ignoring the fact that I'm tired of people telling me their dogs have been attacked by a staffy or pitbull type. The foster carer I had in 2011 who was walking along the road when a Pitbull rushed her and ripped her Whippet's chest open, costing $2000 in surgery and an enormous amount of pain and distress. This was in Canberra.

I'm sorry you find my posts so repetitive - personally I think you are blowing it all out of proportion and are hypersensitive - why I don't know. Like I say, if it doesn't happen, I won't be making it up. This is a public forum, we are all entitled to share our opinions, stories and the like - that's what it's here for. As for most of my posts denigrating bull breeds - hardly, that really is an exaggeration.

Put me on ignore if it bothers you but if I feel like sharing a story, whether it's about a Schnauzer, an Afghan, Greyhound or Staffy, then I will.

Thank you for all those anecdotes. I hate to hear of any dog attacks so I'm sorry that they happened. However, ou are not showing me anything different than what I already know though - bull breeds and their crosses are incredibly popular in this country and there are enormous amounts of them in existence. It would make sense that individual people would have maybe had issues with bull breeds more than other breeds - there are more of them around (especially when you are lumping three distinct breeds and their mixes in to that label). That doesn't mean 'there is a major problem with bull breeds in this country' though. Correlation does not = causation.

Also, I acknowledged that your OP was about ownership rather than breed. But your subsequent posts have not been, and that's what I am responding to.

Edited June 17, 2013 by melzawelza

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Melzawelza, I think you will find that I did not start the bull breed debate in this thread however I will respond when attacked and that is fair enough.

[mantis]

And Melzawelza, you have also decided to ignore the main issues of my original post, to push your own barrow.

Try and comprehend the first post - the post was about people buying breeds that were not suitable for their level of knowledge, a breeder selling two siblings, the owners not putting any effort into training etc or getting desexed and then it ends in disaster. As I have said, it could have been two Jack Russells but it wasn't, it was Am Staffs. I'm not going to lie to appease you and all the other bull breed fanatics.

The negatives here were not the breed but the owners and the breeder.

So why mention the breed then? We both know why.

[tdierikx]

dogmad... when I walk my large bull breed puppy, I have a similar experience to you - except the dogs that tend to rush out of yards to have a go at her are small breeds...

Should I correlate those experiences to mean that small breed dogs are more likely to be aggressive, or that small breed dog owners are lax in the training/socialisation of their chosen breed of dogs? Or would that be an unfair assumption to make?

On the very few occasions we do meet another bull breed dog when out and about, without exception they have all been more interested in playing with my dog or me, and are lovely wiggly bum cuddle magnets.

I live in an area where the number of bull breeds owned far outweighs ownership of the smaller breeds - and yes, many of those bull breeds are described by their owners as "pitties"... *sigh*

The one and only time I saw a large bull breed dog (AmStaff) loose in the street, I stopped and approached her and asked her to show me her home... she took me into a yard with an open side gate and I knocked on the door to let her owner know she was out. She and he were lovely, and I got lots of bully breed loving from her and their other bull breed girl... lol!

T.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

And Melzawelza, you have also decided to ignore the main issues of my original post, to push your own barrow.

Try and comprehend the first post - the post was about people buying breeds that were not suitable for their level of knowledge, a breeder selling two siblings, the owners not putting any effort into training etc or getting desexed and then it ends in disaster. As I have said, it could have been two Jack Russells but it wasn't, it was Am Staffs. I'm not going to lie to appease you and all the other bull breed fanatics.

The negatives here were not the breed but the owners and the breeder.

So why mention the breed then? We both know why.

Get a grip Mantis.