A Cautionary Tale About People Getting Things Very Wrong

[mantis]

litter mates of the same sex ( especially females) and mother /daughter combinations are generally the one's that end in disaster.

Well I must be fortunate because my dogs are mother and daughter and there has never been any aggression between them. In fact they seem to adore each other.

That pic is so cute.

[~Anne~]

Oh look at them I agree Anne.

Sorry - off topic.

They were so cute together. They played together and ate from the same bowl. Sadly, Sidney was killed by a car in front of Nancy and her adoptive owners.

[HazyWal]

litter mates of the same sex ( especially females) and mother /daughter combinations are generally the one's that end in disaster.

Well I must be fortunate because my dogs are mother and daughter and there has never been any aggression between them. In fact they seem to adore each other.

Aaawww Heidi and Bella

[huski]

I find one puppy/young dog enough work on its own Nevermind having TWO of them! Not sure why anyone would want to do it :laugh:

[*Avanti*]

Well I must be fortunate because my dogs are mother and daughter and there has never been any aggression between them. In fact they seem to adore each other.

That pic is so cute.

Thanks mantis and stans mum. :) I'm off topic too (sorry dogmad) but it is heartwarming to see how well these two get on. I so often see them snuggled up together like that.

That's so sad Anne about Sidney.

[sandgrubber]

1370758262[/url]' post='6222668']

1370679571[/url]' post='6222093']

litter mates of the same sex ( especially females) and mother /daughter combinations are generally the one's that end in disaster.

Well I must be fortunate because my dogs are mother and daughter and there has never been any aggression between them. In fact they seem to adore each other.

This may be a Lab thing...or at least common in Labs. I've kept a lot of mother daughter pairs together. The bigger worry is how they will grieve when separated, not whether they will fight. Here are my present two, Jarrah, aged 9, and Bonza, her 3 yr old daughter ...oops file too big ....damn iPad. Anyway, they groom eachother regularly, and preferentially sleep touching one another. They also play together, though the old girl doesn't last very long.

[YOLO]

It’s sad to read such stories, but even sadder to read the “head in the sand” responses from some.

“Somebody must be lying because a 6 month old couldn’t hurt a fly.” If your breed was bred to kill other animals, it WILL have some combination of hard bight, sharp teeth, and/or strong jaw and neck muscles. If you are unfortunate enough to stick your hand in there when they are biting, damage will result. That’s why some breeds ARE inherently physically more dangerous than others.

“It’s all the stupid owners fault.” Yet I repeatedly read posts denying that there are morons who buy the wrong dogs for all the wrong reasons.

“BYB are Baddd news.” Why? “Bad” breeders produce poorly bred dogs, which are the first problem, yet apologists deny such dogs exist.

“Never buy siblings.” IMHO it has little to do with blood relationships. Most dogs are competitive to some degree, but on the other hand in some breeds the level of co-dependency reached is incredible. If you have two overly aggressive male dogs competing for dominance, it is going to get nasty.

[mita]

It’s sad to read such stories, but even sadder to read the “head in the sand” responses from some.

“Somebody must be lying because a 6 month old couldn’t hurt a fly.” If your breed was bred to kill other animals, it WILL have some combination of hard bight, sharp teeth, and/or strong jaw and neck muscles. If you are unfortunate enough to stick your hand in there when they are biting, damage will result. That’s why some breeds ARE inherently physically more dangerous than others.

“It’s all the stupid owners fault.” Yet I repeatedly read posts denying that there are morons who buy the wrong dogs for all the wrong reasons.

“BYB are Baddd news.” Why? “Bad” breeders produce poorly bred dogs, which are the first problem, yet apologists deny such dogs exist.

“

I've pointed out, in my posts, that the first 'owner' is the person who breeds/raises the dogs.

An 'owner' being the person whose actions influence how dogs & puppies behave.

In the breeder/owner's case, that covers what they're breeding for & how the puppies and parent dogs are socialised.

There is solid research showing that both are linked with degree of risk for a dog developing to be aggressive towards humans (or other dogs).

And, definitely, the UQ research showed that it was unregistered breeders....'backyard breeders' .... who tended to produce puppies at higher risk for later problems such as aggression against humans. That was in comparison with registered breeders.

It makes sense that registered breeders would be more likely to breed for good temperament & also to socialise their puppies & dogs well. After all, their dogs have to be handled by strangers ... judges .... at dog shows. Apart from likely having a longer list of reasons why they do so.

A new owner, adopting a dog from a breeder/owner, can only start from the base already established. Even with a puppy provided with a 'good' base, there needs to be ongoing socialisation, training & management by the new owner. A sound temperament base facilitates that learning .... but owner effort is needed to provide a social map as the puppy grows into adulthood. Which explains why many registered breeders are very careful when selecting new owners for their puppies/dogs.

But what about the problems faced by a new owner who starts with a pup already at high risk from how it's been bred & raised? Link that with a new owner's lack of knowledge and/or will, to socialise, train & generally manage the pup into adulthood.... then there's an accident waiting to happen.

There's a difference between saying that breed label alone does not predict if a dog is of high risk of aggression towards humans..... and saying that poor breeding & socialisation practices tend to produce dogs of higher risk. Yes, those dogs exist while those practices exist. I agree with you.... that's where the challenge lies.

But an additional rider.... is that even with at least reasonable practices, there can be factors outside human control. Like specific neurological states.

Edited June 10, 2013 by mita

[Quickasyoucan]

We kept a pup from our litter of welsh springers many years ago. Sian the mum tolerated bronwen the daughter but they weren't what i would call inseparable. In fact when bronnie died of cancer at eight Sian who was about ten or eleven got a whole new lease of life as if to say finally she's gone and I can have all the attention back. Motherly she was not lol!

[Malamum]

I actually know this person. From my removed position (I've not seen her in person in months and don't really know her that well, but I did hear about the situation through the grapevine), I think it's just a case of someone getting in way over their head and when it comes to siblings and the likelihood of fights, you don't know what you don't know.

I also met the puppies in question once and gave them pats and cuddles and it's a real shame that things have turned out they way they have.

As it is, I have two dogs of my own who fight from time to time so I know what it's like to a certain extent. It just takes a bit more time and effort but it can be managed. I think people only ever hear the good stories though and see pictures of two dogs snuggled up together and think that is what life with multiple dogs will be like. No one ever assumes the worst will happen to them.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Malamum

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Small world Malamum. Staffluv will be disappointed that you can verify this sad story as she likes to think I make these things up for some reason. :)

[Staffyluv]

Small world Malamum. Staffluv will be disappointed that you can verify this sad story as she likes to think I make these things up for some reason. :)

Why would I be disappointed? How incredibly immature of you! Snide much?

I think it is a very sad case indeed.

I have never said you made this up - I did say I thought the owners was telling porky pies, as I honestly didn't believe that a 6 month old pup would be capable of doing enough damage to require the sort of surgery you described in your initial post - I have since realised that is entirely possible based on others experience.

I have personally never seen a 6 month old pup do that sort of damage. I stand corrected...

[Malamum]

I do know there was definitely surgery involved but I don't know the specifics other than it was on one hand. Maybe is was just bad luck that rather than a clean puncture wound a tendon in the hand got torn or something. I'm really just speculating now though.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Small world Malamum. Staffluv will be disappointed that you can verify this sad story as she likes to think I make these things up for some reason. :)

Why would I be disappointed? How incredibly immature of you! Snide much?

I think it is a very sad case indeed.

I have never said you made this up - I did say I thought the owners was telling porky pies, as I honestly didn't believe that a 6 month old pup would be capable of doing enough damage to require the sort of surgery you described in your initial post - I have since realised that is entirely possible based on others experience.

I have personally never seen a 6 month old pup do that sort of damage. I stand corrected...

Glad you now understand - you did not have enough experience to judge the situation. I am not snide but I get very p----d off when certain people start accusing me of lying (or spreading secondhand lies from an owner) because I'm relaying a story to do with bull breeds. Other posters on this thread have done the same previously so may they all stand corrected.

[Staffyluv]

Small world Malamum. Staffluv will be disappointed that you can verify this sad story as she likes to think I make these things up for some reason. :)

Why would I be disappointed? How incredibly immature of you! Snide much?

I think it is a very sad case indeed.

I have never said you made this up - I did say I thought the owners was telling porky pies, as I honestly didn't believe that a 6 month old pup would be capable of doing enough damage to require the sort of surgery you described in your initial post - I have since realised that is entirely possible based on others experience.

I have personally never seen a 6 month old pup do that sort of damage. I stand corrected...

Glad you now understand - you did not have enough experience to judge the situation. I am not snide but I get very p----d off when certain people start accusing me of lying (or spreading secondhand lies from an owner) because I'm relaying a story to do with bull breeds. Other posters on this thread have done the same previously so may they all stand corrected.

Your response was most definitely snide.

I do have plenty of experience with bull breeds thanks - I have lived with them most of my life. Our family have had in excess of 10 of them (I have had 3 of my own as an adult). A lot of my friends have them. I have NEVER seen a 6 month old pup cause damage like you described. Hence my first response.

Again - I did NOT accuse you of lying. I suggested that the person that relayed the information to you was telling 'porky pies'.. To me that is exaggeration/stretching the truth or just plain bull$hit.

That is the only thing I stand corrected on - I believe you are against bull breeds/types of dogs and seem to take great pleasure in posting anything you can find that denigrates the breed/type as often as possible. But as I said before, no one said you had to like them.

Edited to add, I have never once said or suggested you make things up..

Edited June 10, 2013 by Staffyluv

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I state again, as per my previous post, that I take each dog on face value - I actually wanted to adopt one a few years ago for instance.

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds - especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners - and it needs to be acknowledged and managed, somehow. They have become extremely popular and many are not that great with other dogs. I'm surrounded by people with them who don't have gates, any or high enough fencing and walk them off the lead - even those who have shown dog on dog aggression.

I have plenty of anecdotes and stories that I don't even bother to share but I thought this was an important story - and it's not all about the fact that they were bull breeds. If they'd been JRTs I would have relayed the same story. The only difference is that I wouldn't be getting all the personal attacks.

[sandgrubber]

1370857265[/url]' post='6223645']

I state again, as per my previous post, that I take each dog on face value - I actually wanted to adopt one a few years ago for instance.

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds - especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners - and it needs to be acknowledged and managed, somehow. They have become extremely popular and many are not that great with other dogs. I'm surrounded by people with them who don't have gates, any or high enough fencing and walk them off the lead - even those who have shown dog on dog aggression.

I have plenty of anecdotes and stories that I don't even bother to share but I thought this was an important story - and it's not all about the fact that they were bull breeds. If they'd been JRTs I would have relayed the same story. The only difference is that I wouldn't be getting all the personal attacks.

What I'd like to know is whether bull breeds are getting better or worse over time, and if they are getting worse or not improving, whether the bad element is concentrated in some lines. I am no expert on bull breed history, but it does seem to me that the average temperament has probably gotten more social since the days when dogfighting and bull and bear baiting were popular sports. If the bad name is coming from, say 10% of the individuals, and the temperament problems are concentrated in certain lines, the solution is to regulate the problem lines, not the entire breed(s). The Staffy is neck and neck with the Labrador for numbers of pedigree registrations in Australia. I can't believe SBTs would be that popular if most of them were inherently problematic.

[kelpiecuddles]

I'd suggest that the well bred ones are getting better and the badly bred ones are as agressive but possibly more unstable than they were when bred for a purpose. Atleast when they were bred for a purpose the people breeding them would still have been doing it in a mostly responsible way and keeping their dogs properly secured. It's the irresponsible mostly BYBers dragging them down.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

1370857265[/url]' post='6223645']

I state again, as per my previous post, that I take each dog on face value - I actually wanted to adopt one a few years ago for instance.

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds - especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners - and it needs to be acknowledged and managed, somehow. They have become extremely popular and many are not that great with other dogs. I'm surrounded by people with them who don't have gates, any or high enough fencing and walk them off the lead - even those who have shown dog on dog aggression.

I have plenty of anecdotes and stories that I don't even bother to share but I thought this was an important story - and it's not all about the fact that they were bull breeds. If they'd been JRTs I would have relayed the same story. The only difference is that I wouldn't be getting all the personal attacks.

What I'd like to know is whether bull breeds are getting better or worse over time, and if they are getting worse or not improving, whether the bad element is concentrated in some lines. I am no expert on bull breed history, but it does seem to me that the average temperament has probably gotten more social since the days when dogfighting and bull and bear baiting were popular sports. If the bad name is coming from, say 10% of the individuals, and the temperament problems are concentrated in certain lines, the solution is to regulate the problem lines, not the entire breed(s). The Staffy is neck and neck with the Labrador for numbers of pedigree registrations in Australia. I can't believe SBTs would be that popular if most of them were inherently problematic.

Many people know little or anything about the dogs they pick. I speak to people regularly in my rescue work and one of the common things I'd told by the owners of Staffies is that they were picked because they were great with people. People haven't thought to worry about whether or not the dog is good with other dogs and rock up to the dog park ....

Most people are normal dog owners, they don't always have enough experience to know what to look for in a dog. This is why there is so much dumpage of dogs generally, because people didn't know that the lovely border collie they picked wouldn't be happy sitting in a garden 24/7.

The pounds are full of bull breeds and crosses thereof, maybe it's because their owners didn't know they'd need good fencing and can't or won't fix it, I'd be interested in some research being done.

[Plan B]

But sorry, you have to admit there IS a major problem with bull breeds

But there really isn't, when you take into the account how many 'bull breeds' [we're talking about a few breeds and, I assume, crosses here] there are that are never a problem and don't make the headlines. I'd love to see accurate statistics that show this country has a major problem with bull breeds, as opposed to a major problem with education and community safety.

especially when they seem to be attracting a lot of incompetent and irresponsible owners

Every dog, of any breed, attracts incompetent and irresponsible owners.

Yes, bull breeds are very popular in general. And the fact they're not in the news multiple times a day attacking someone or something just shows how the majority of owners are capable, educated, and well equipped, and how the majority of dogs are not a problem. We have to remember that bull breeds and their crosses [again, so many breeds in that] aren't some magical unicorn species of the dog world that need extra special ownership. They are dogs, first and foremost. What people need to look at is individual dogs within breeds that may need specific environments and owners.

There's no point looking at the pounds to tell us where there's a problem. A huge percentage of dogs in the pounds are crossbreeds of unknown genetics. And then there's the fact a huge percentage of crossbreeds in the pounds are happy, friendly, well-adjusted dogs that go on to find homes, which clearly shows the problem was never with the dog in the first place.

So no, I don't believe we have a major problem with bull breeds in this country. I also don't believe we have a major problem with dangerous dogs, considering the percentage of attacks across the board is so low.