A Cautionary Tale About People Getting Things Very Wrong

[WreckitWhippet]

litter mates of the same sex ( especially females) and mother /daughter combinations are generally the one's that end in disaster.

[*kirty*]

Yep, I knew a family who bought two female Stafford pups (litter mates)and by 1yr old, they wanted to kill each other. The family tried everything to sort it, but ended up having to keep the dogs permanently separated.

Another family I knew bought 2 female pups (Dalmatian and Lab x Poodle) at the same time and the same thing happened. Unfortunately that family weren't interested in fixing anything and had both dogs PTS.

[Kirislin]

My 2 oldest whippets, (10 months between them) started out as great mates but when the younger one matured she wanted to be top dog. For their whole lives now I've had to be careful with them. We've had about 3 really nasty fights that required the vets. I am constantly managing the situation, it requires vigilance and dedication.

[Dame Aussie]

Its funny. With what I know now I would never get two littermates or a dog from a BYB....but about twenty years ago we did just that :laugh: they were gorgeous little buggers that had nice long lives.....its interesting.

They were brother and sister though, two littermates of the same sex would be much riskier.

[Dame Aussie]

litter mates of the same sex ( especially females) and mother /daughter combinations are generally the one's that end in disaster.

This is interesting too.

We got my MIL a new puppy, and the only reason we got the one we wanted (they were going to keep her) was due to her mother starting to be a bit nasty with her.

[HazyWal]

Pictured are my dear friends Poodles Leo and Gianni, littermates aged 14 bless them...BUT 20 seconds out of this shot it was on they hate each other with a passion and pretty much always have. My friend has always managed the problem but as much as she adores them, it's been a long haul.

[gillbear]

Pictured are my dear friends Poodles Leo and Gianni, littermates aged 14 bless them...BUT 20 seconds out of this shot it was on they hate each other with a passion and pretty much always have. My friend has always managed the problem but as much as she adores them, it's been a long haul.

Its probably redirected aggression because of the ribbons in their hair. Oh the shame :)

[HazyWal]

Pictured are my dear friends Poodles Leo and Gianni, littermates aged 14 bless them...BUT 20 seconds out of this shot it was on they hate each other with a passion and pretty much always have. My friend has always managed the problem but as much as she adores them, it's been a long haul.

Its probably redirected aggression because of the ribbons in their hair. Oh the shame :)

No doubt :)

Edited June 8, 2013 by stans mum

[tdierikx]

So - for the sake of discussion... what if 2 dogs of different or mixed breeding with great temperaments and sound health were bred, and selection of new homes for the pups was done properly - would that still be a big no-no?

T.

[Salukifan]

So - for the sake of discussion... what if 2 dogs of different or mixed breeding with great temperaments and sound health were bred, and selection of new homes for the pups was done properly - would that still be a big no-no?

T.

I'd still recommend pups be homed separately to eliminate the risk. It's all about pack hierarchy and when you have dogs identical in age, size (and even worse, gender) you don't have a clear hierarchy until one dog ends up on top. That may often make the other dog's life pretty damn ordinary if the "top" dog isn't secure in that position.

Pack issues aside, I see way too many dogs totally co-dependent on a pack mate from whom they are never separated. It takes a lot of time and dedication to raise TWO pups. Quite a few people struggle to manage it well with one.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Bjelkier]

I have a brother and sister team here from my last litter and they're fine.

That being said I have been very careful about how I raised them and did a lot of separation training.

[Clyde]

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Pictured are my dear friends Poodles Leo and Gianni, littermates aged 14 bless them...BUT 20 seconds out of this shot it was on they hate each other with a passion and pretty much always have. My friend has always managed the problem but as much as she adores them, it's been a long haul.

Its probably redirected aggression because of the ribbons in their hair. Oh the shame :)

[Steve]

So - for the sake of discussion... what if 2 dogs of different or mixed breeding with great temperaments and sound health were bred, and selection of new homes for the pups was done properly - would that still be a big no-no?

T.

I dont believe its worth the risk. One of my big mistakes about 12 years ago as a breeder was to give in and go with a request for litter mates.I did this because the people who were taking them were experienced owners and had two beagles before - and beagles are pretty easy to get along with.They played by the advice and the rules where each was taken away from the other at various times for one on one and training etc and all went well. I got regular updates telling me how wonderful it was and there was no hint - not one- of a problem. Then when they we 18 months old it all changed. I recommended trainers and the owners went and did everything I could have asked them to do to no avail. Got so bad that they had to choose which one to send back to me and they couldnt choose so both came home. Perfect dogs, well trained , well mannered , no sign what ever of aggression but their dominancy issues in each other's company just out of the blue was horrible. Each went to a new home separately and the new owners have been happy living with perfect pets.They get on with other dogs without a problem - always have but each other - sheesh ! if someone had bet me money that beagles could behave like that I would have lost but no matter what , no matter what no one will ever again take two pups from me at the same time. Ive placed many 6 months apart and its a perfect life. So for me say what you will but its still not worth the risk. There are studies which tell us that different breeds face dominancy issues at different ages - Apparently some breeds sort it out almost as they are weaned so its sorted early and not revisited but others see it as an issue later when its a bigger deal for the humans who have to control it to live with it. Also as much as it s distressing for owners beagles can usually fight and no one ever really gets hurt but other breeds of course can do more damage and they are more persistent at keeping the fight going.

Fact is a better owner doesn't always equal the dominancy issues can be sidestepped though some may be able to live with it better than others. Id rather not and Ive never known anyone ever have dominancy issues with beagles unless they are ltter mates or came in at the same time. Dominance issues are not necessarily the same as aggression and you cant always blame the owner.

[tdierikx]

So - for the sake of discussion... what if 2 dogs of different or mixed breeding with great temperaments and sound health were bred, and selection of new homes for the pups was done properly - would that still be a big no-no?

T.

I'd still recommend pups be homed separately to eliminate the risk. It's all about pack hierarchy and when you have dogs identical in age, size (and even worse, gender) you don't have a clear hierarchy until one dog ends up on top. That may often make the other dog's life pretty damn ordinary if the "top" dog isn't secure in that position.

Pack issues aside, I see way too many dogs totally co-dependent on a pack mate from whom they are never separated. It takes a lot of time and dedication to raise TWO pups. Quite a few people struggle to manage it well with one.

And if homed as singles? Would crossbred dogs be more "acceptable" if bred and homed more carefully?

Steve - in response to the littermate thing, the 2 of the same sex, or 2 of the same age... is there statistical proof that any of those combinations are any more likely to become an issue than any other combination of pets in a household? Or do you think it may more likely come down to the base temperament of each individual dog? (I tend to lean toward the latter, based on my own experience over the years)

T.

[Steve]

So - for the sake of discussion... what if 2 dogs of different or mixed breeding with great temperaments and sound health were bred, and selection of new homes for the pups was done properly - would that still be a big no-no?

T.

I'd still recommend pups be homed separately to eliminate the risk. It's all about pack hierarchy and when you have dogs identical in age, size (and even worse, gender) you don't have a clear hierarchy until one dog ends up on top. That may often make the other dog's life pretty damn ordinary if the "top" dog isn't secure in that position.

Pack issues aside, I see way too many dogs totally co-dependent on a pack mate from whom they are never separated. It takes a lot of time and dedication to raise TWO pups. Quite a few people struggle to manage it well with one.

And if homed as singles? Would crossbred dogs be more "acceptable" if bred and homed more carefully?

Steve - in response to the littermate thing, the 2 of the same sex, or 2 of the same age... is there statistical proof that any of those combinations are any more likely to become an issue than any other combination of pets in a household? Or do you think it may more likely come down to the base temperament of each individual dog? (I tend to lean toward the latter, based on my own experience over the years)

T.

If there is any official stats I havent seen them Its difficult to find a more common denominator with this type of behavioural issue and whilst Im sure some dont have the problem for me as a breeder I believe its a big enough risk not to chance it.

Page 86 of this link second column speaks a bit about breed differences for stages that dogs go through . Perhaps its about the fact that two from the same litter go through these stages at the same time and I suppose we can knock ourselves out trying to find the answers - for me the answer is you are never going to get two of my puppies at one time.

My link

[Little Gifts]

I remember a lady I worked with who from memory had 2 breeder purchased cav sisters. They fought horribly and she spent oodles of money on training and behaviourists and sectioning off her home. I kept just wanting to tell her to give up and get rid of one of the dogs so they could all have a happier life. It's kind of like sibling rivalry for mum's attention at it's ugliest.

[tdierikx]

Thanks for the link Steve - interesting. Reading the pages before and after page 86 gives further context to the test results, and does include human interaction as a factor that plays a part in the development of behaviours.

T.

[~Anne~]

All I can see is anecdotal evidence and there is just as much evidence for and against littermates being together. There certainly is not enough to make me change my view at this point.

Personally, I've had 2 sets of littermates over my life and they weren't pugs and they were fine. I have two friends currently with littermates with no issues. I've re-homed 2 sisters, pugs, and they were great. All anecdotal and much like everyone else's arguments against.

Sisters who adored each other, Elka and Lulu, later renamed as Sid and Nancy. They even appeared to mimic each other in pose.

[Dame Aussie]

Oh look at them I agree Anne.

[*Avanti*]

litter mates of the same sex ( especially females) and mother /daughter combinations are generally the one's that end in disaster.

Well I must be fortunate because my dogs are mother and daughter and there has never been any aggression between them. In fact they seem to adore each other.

Edited June 9, 2013 by LabTested