BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Hi folks, I would like some help regarding training. Due to just coming home from hospital I am now on 6 weeks of doing nothing Anyway have decided not to waste valuable time with my guys & have started to do short training sessions with them. I really want to sharpen both of them up with their heel & their stay. Anyway, my boy, Sonny, who is almost 5 was taught both of these as a puppy & did them well but now seems to have completely "forgotten" both of them I think because since getting Stella I have had to focus all my energy & time on her as she's my other BC with special needs, for anybody who isn't aware, that I have neglected his tuition 1st question? I started yesterday trying to reteach Sonny with his favourite treats & to my surprise he carried on, almost like in frustration/ throwing a tanti, yapping & crying at me. Going through all the tricks he knows of his own accord but not listening to what I was asking him to do at all. I don't know what I have done/doing wrong??? I'm really worried & hope I haven't ruined him somehow Can anyone offer any suggestions/ideas or help as to how I can calm/slow him down enough so as he will listen to what I'm asking him to do, which is heel atm? 2nd question? I separate my 2 when training anything new. I always start with Sonny, while Stella is tied up but is still able to see both of us. She does yap at bit with excitment as she wants 'in' on the action & that doesn't bother me really & I ignore her but if Sonny & I go out of her sight she up's her volume & carries on a right treat. Is there anyway I can calm her? I always give her something to do eg. a toy/kong but she never touches them during this 5 to 10 mins. I am with Sonny. I have tried her thundershirt but too no avail. It makes it difficult as we have very unfriendly, non dog loving neighbours who wont hesitate to ring the council. 3rd & last ? I am having difficulty slowing down training session's with Stella. She is very fast at everything & usually nails it. I'd like her to hold positions longer though & also fade out the baits as she is way too focused on my hands & the bait which I want to faze out but am unsure how? Any ideas anyone? Sorry for the long post but these 3 questions needed some explanation. Many thanks in advance for any advice. Edited June 6, 2013 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 you have my sympathy, as I'm also just out of hospital, maybe, your dog is picking up that you are not well? and trying you out?? I took milo for a short walk yesterday, and he worked beautifully, so the 3 weeks off, have helped him. if you are going back to basics so to speak, maybe you need to have complete peace?? ie don't have the other dogs around?? step back, have a look at what you are doing (and as you've seen with me, sometimes if you can video your work, you will see where you are going wrong?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 You have sympathy too paddles. Hope you are doing O.K & are on the mend :) I did try to restart training with Sonny before going into hospital & he behavioured the same way. He has got me really stumped by the sheer frustration he is showing You may have a good point regarding training without Stella around. I have tried crating her inside but she gets herself into a anxious mess unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 1. Ugh, Kivi gets like this sometimes. I'm not sure it's the same problem, but I b would say the priority is the reward rate rather than getting the behaviour you know he can do. If he can do a sit or down stay, I would get him to do that in the hopes it would break the cycle of crazy. If he's not able to do that, it might help to go back to something really basic like a target so you can get a lot of reps and a high reward rate until you've taken the edge off and he feels reassured that he will be rewarded. You could also try behaviours he has to do from a down. We have a few of these we use to calm them down while still training. The "pick-a-hand" game is a good one, where they have to indicate which hand you're holding a treat in. 2. I eventually found the best way to train two dogs was to switch between them a lot and reward the one that wasn't working for waiting quietly. It was quite hard to find the right rhythm that would work for me, as I get quite absorbed in training and often forgot the other dog. If I switch between them so that they are essentially both always working even when I'm only training one, all the noise and carry on vanished. I started it using mats as stations so a few reps, then send dog to mat and call second dog up. I LOVE this. One of our recent trick videos has some examples of how easy training two dogs becomes when they both feel like they are being trained. Erik often lays down on the spot automatically as soon as I switch my focus to Kivi so I don't even have to remember to cue it. 3. I'm not sure about this one. With Erik it just comes down to timing. If he's getting really intense and making mistakes or throwing out too many behaviours I start saying "No" and he starts paying more attention. I ostensibly don't use a NRM, but apparently Erik thinks I do. At any rate, used occasionally it seems to be quite useful. The other thing I would try is start incorporating down-stays into training. Erik used to bark at me incessantly if I didn't give him cues fast enough. I taught him I only train dogs that are lying down quietly and it did wonders for his self-control in training. I take it a lot of the noise and lack of impulse control was simply because he had no reason to be more restrained. Erik flourished under lots of structure and rules. If there are vacuums he will fill them with behaviours, so managing his training is often about making sure he knows what he is supposed to be doing from one moment to the next. But given his moments are much smaller than mine, this means he sometimes has to know what to do without me telling him. Teaching him generalised rules like "If you want training cues you will have to down quietly first" are excellent for filling the vacuums and he readily takes them outside of training as well, which is very useful. As for fading, it's an art! I usually start by stringing behaviours together and rewarding after 2 or 3. Hope your recovery goes well and the dogs are kind to you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I just had a go at teaching milo to drop a "hanky" into the clothes basket... poor milo, was freaking, he picked up the object and bought it to me... come on mum... unfortunately he managed to drag a foot down my stomach... OUCH try giving stella a chewy? step back a step... he's showing anxiety.. he wants to please, but can't get the idea? step back again... what exactly are you trying to get him to do? can you step back even further?? (ie, if it's stay, swing in front of him (nose to knee) reward, return?? heeling, one step, with focus, sit, reward?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 Hi Corvus, thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions. No 1. Yes I will take a few steps backwards with Sonny maybe before trying to teach him anything. He is just carrying on so silly. Like a spoilt child really. I'm quite taken back by it as he is usually very sensible & low key. I can get him to lay down & he does that like lightening but he wont stay there. He bounces up again as fast without me even having time to ask him to stay in position. Might give the pick a hand if I can manage to though. 2. I have been succeeding really well with our treadmill training 3x10 min each, twice a day. They both love it & I have Sonny on "milly" first & Stella laying down next to me waiting for her turn. I do randomly treat her & she doesn't make a sound. It's when I do other training with Sonny that she protests 3. Oh, maybe I need to link behaviours. Didn't think of that. Thanks will try it :) Atm Stella seems to be 'eyeing' my treat hand way too much for my liking. Sometimes she continually nudges it. Smart girl, but I don't want her doing that all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 Paddles ...Ouch alright !! Yes I may be going to quick for him. Oh poor Sonny I can see he is like, I am trying but I just don't get it.. I am trying to reteach heeling. I had him walking up the hallway against the wall but he kept popping in front or out of position after 1 or 2 steps. He wasn't happy, very frustrated unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 BC Crazy, do you have a marker word that you use? My Mal is SUPER fast so timing is every thing, but I find when increasing duration for positions having a clear marker word to tell her she has it right is really helpful and helps them nail duration much faster. So I give the command, then the marker (I say good) then give a release to the reward. It also means you can mark for eye contact rather than having the dog look at your hand for food etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I am trying to reteach heeling. I had him walking up the hallway against the wall but he kept popping in front or out of position after 1 or 2 steps. He wasn't happy, very frustrated unfortunately. Have you trained any back end awareness work i.e. using a stool or similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I say "yes" or "good" as a marker. I have also just started some rear end awarness training. Am trying to get him to put his front feet on a phone book & then move his hind legs round but is there any other exercises that I could try as he just lays down on it. Stellla is grasping the concept though. Edited June 6, 2013 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I say "yes" or "good" as a marker. I have also just started some rear end awarness training. Am trying to get him to put his front feet on a phone book & then move his hind legs round but is there any other exercises that I could try as he just lays down on it. Stellla is grasping the concept though. So when he downs for example and you give the marker word does he hold the position? Or is he breaking before or just after you give the marker word? I would work on stationary heel position with him before adding any forward motion, once he understands the position well he will be a lot less frustrated and it will be a lot easier to get forward motion happening how you want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I say "yes" or "good" as a marker. I have also just started some rear end awarness training. Am trying to get him to put his front feet on a phone book & then move his hind legs round but is there any other exercises that I could try as he just lays down on it. Stellla is grasping the concept though. But does your "yes" or "good" mean the behaviour can finish? I use "yes" as a clicker marker - you've nailed it and you are now free to get the noms "good" means you're heading in the right direction, carry on. I taught this with something they already knew (sit stay). So I said "sit" "good" and treated them in position (they normally popped up, thinking they had been released, so I said "uh uh" in a neutral tone, they sat, I released etc). This gave them the understanding that "good" meant continue. WRT to healing, there is a box method that helps teach the position and hind leg awareness really well - there would be tons on youtube. I also focus on teaching the position for a loooooong time before I started to walk. If they know that being on your left is the best place in the world, they will walk when you walk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Here's that trick video I mentioned. It's got more of Kivi waiting than Erik, but it might give you an idea of the structure. It's like 10-15 seconds with one dog, then down or sit stay, while you do 10-15 seconds with the other dog. As they get better at it you can spend longer with each dog. If they can't wait for 10-15 seconds, reward the waiting dog when you reward the working dog. https://www.youtube.com/embed/jHHwlvp9-ro?rel=0 Also, you can see in the vid Erik sometimes bounces as he tries to do extra behaviours before I've cued them. I don't usually mind if he's a bit loose because it doesn't really matter, but since he learned to climb onto my shoulders it's a bigger deal. I don't want him messing that one up, thanks. A couple of weeks ago I was crouching while I did something with Kivi and turned around to find Erik eyeing my shoulders and getting ready to jump. That's why he's supposed to be in a down-stay while I'm doing stuff with Kivi! I told him not to, but he came up anyway. Stimulus control is important! Naughty moments aside, it helps to anticipate them and have a 'wait' cue or just use a down to have them take a few breaths and settle down. Reward placement goes a long way as well. Erik was definitely one for popping up instantly. If it's a position, getting the treat in their mouth while they are in it is super helpful. The more you can get in there before they get up the better. Have 5 treats in your hand and make sure you're in a position to pop one treat after the other into his mouth when he's in a down. A few months ago I taught Erik to hold something, which was harder because obviously I couldn't treat him while he was holding something else. I used a clicker and just had to be very sharp-eyed and quick on the button, and when I got a hold for more than a second he got a jackpot. He will now hold it while doing other tricks, so that's pretty cool. Edited June 6, 2013 by corvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 With offering all of their behaviours at once - don't reward and wait them out. I got this a lot with Zoe, as well as anticipation of the next cue, my fault. Eg sit to beg. If I've asked her to sit and she goes into beg I just ignore that and wait til she goes back into a sit and reward the sit. With duration, do you have a release cue? I have a release cue as well as marker word and sometimes clicker. I mark for action and reward for position - so for stationary exercises (eg I am shaping a drop with my puppy) I mark when he goes into a drop (at first when he moved his head down etc) and then give the reward low. Now that he will drop, I mark when he goes into a drop and reward in the drop with multiple rewards and then give my release cue and either throw a treat to reset so he can have another go or tug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I say "yes" or "good" as a marker. I have also just started some rear end awarness training. Am trying to get him to put his front feet on a phone book & then move his hind legs round but is there any other exercises that I could try as he just lays down on it. Stellla is grasping the concept though. So when he downs for example and you give the marker word does he hold the position? Or is he breaking before or just after you give the marker word? I would work on stationary heel position with him before adding any forward motion, once he understands the position well he will be a lot less frustrated and it will be a lot easier to get forward motion happening how you want it. No Huski, I give the marker word or use a click & reward his very thud like down but he breaks straight after. I can call him & hand cue him into a heel/sit position all day long. He does this extremely well. That is why I presumed he would walk in a heel position & he does but not consistently or with duration/distraction which is what I. Edited June 6, 2013 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 I haven't trained today but hopefully tomorrow will give it a go. I have lost a bit of confidence so I must get back into it otherwise it will make walking them all the more difficult when I am able to. This is my fault as I haven't been well for quite some time, just allowing them to pull on lead a bit & it has become a habit that I now have to correct. They used to be really good but this has occurred so gradually that I didn't notice it to be honest till it became too much. Hopefully I can get my 2 back on track as it will be so much easier for all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Don't stress BC, I am sure it will all come together. Try not to rush increasing duration and durability (his ability to heel under distraction) - this is something that can take time and lots of practice, training heelwork can be a lot more complex and hard work for something that can appear so simple. It does sound like he thinks the marker is a release to the reward, so it might be worth strengthening his understanding of the marker and release cues. There are lots of stationary exercises you can try to strengthen his understanding of the position too. I do lots of leg adaption exercises, get the dog to find heel position from lots of different angles, I don't use hand signals so I just use a vocal command but try fading the hand signal to test his understanding too. I also do lots of back end awareness work in the beginning and backwards and side ways heeling, slow motion heeling etc. You don't have to do all those things but generally I find people whose dogs have really good heelwork do a lot of foundation exercises to make it really strong. Edited June 6, 2013 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Hi BC Keep the training sessions really short and fun - no matter how far away they are from what you want. All the different offerings - are part of an "extinction burst" while your frustrated dog (Sonny) tries to figure out what you want. At least he's hanging in there and trying stuff. My dog would offer up a nice sit stay and stare. And that was it, so I had to try distracting her and then rewarding every different thing to get her to offer up stuff at all. At the moment I'm trying to get an ear flick on cue - but she doesn't quite get it. When she gets frustrated she just barks and barks and barks... and the best way for me to deal with that if it gets out of hand is to leave the room and shut a door between us until she's quiet. But it usually means the re-inforcement rate is not there and she's frustrated and not dealing with it. Building up a dog's tolerance to frustration is like building up their stay durations - start with a little bit - a few seconds at a time. If he lies down on the perch - I would make a higher perch. I use old phone books wrapped in towels. I really ought to tie them up with packing tape so they don't wobble but I like the wobble I guess. Cheaper than fitpaws gear anyway. So it's ok to quit a training session after 5 minutes even if you felt like you got nowhere. Just leave it for a while and try again later, or try something different later. For heelwork - I would like Huski said - start with the dog parked next to me and reward that. Take a small step forward, say "go" (release) and if he steps up to the position where he was getting rewarded - reward that - then I'd stop, release and play tug or run chase the boss and then maybe go back to it for 2 to 5 attempts - no more. Not till he "gets" it better. Remember to reward in position - if the dog is where you want, they should be able to stay there to get and eat the treat. they shouldn't have to move away from the right position until you release them for play or whatever. The other dog - needs to be rewarded as much if not more for being *calm* out of the training spot (like Corvus video). But you might need to start with just training that. Eg put Sonny on leash, put Stella on the mat (tied up if necessary), reward Sonny for being next to you in the "reinforcement zone" and Stella for being calm on the mat. Then try to mix up the distance a bit - by half a metre. And duration by a few seconds. And swap dogs every five attempts or so. It's ok (according to Bob Baily) to finish on a failure. And there are some studies that suggest that dogs do better with one session a week than one session (or even three sessions) a day on the same training task. Sometimes it works better to have 10 different games to get the same end result - cos that way it takes longer to get bored and frustrated with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Paddles ...Ouch alright !! Yes I may be going to quick for him. Oh poor Sonny I can see he is like, I am trying but I just don't get it.. I am trying to reteach heeling. I had him walking up the hallway against the wall but he kept popping in front or out of position after 1 or 2 steps. He wasn't happy, very frustrated unfortunately. I think Huski is right, maybe start with heel positioning, bring him into position, reward, release, bring back in...??? hmmmm, more of do as I say, not as I do??? I went looking for a link to a you tube clip I've seen... but waiting for our download to roll over.... sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Extinction bursts can be really hard on dogs. It's like when we put money in a vending machine and make our selection and nothing comes out. We get quite outraged. It's not exactly fun. I feel more comfortable sort of guiding them out of the behaviour offering frenzy. Some dogs can hack a cold turkey extinction procedure and come back more determined than ever (ahem, Erik), but other dogs may not be so resilient. I work my dogs on the assumption that they will know when they are doing the right thing because they got a click/treat and will know when they are not because they got nothing. They will get frustrated if they don't know how to get a click, and if they are getting nothing, so it's my job to make sure I'm setting things up so they can get a lot of clicks and then they are confident they will be able to 'win' this game by figuring out how to get lots more clicks. Kivi used to have an extremely low frustration threshold. Teaching him to target was really helpful. It broke tasks down into pieces that he was confident in doing, so he didn't get so frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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