Separation Anxiety - Rescue Dogs Help!

[persephone]

I have to say that I did use disposable baby nappies on my old girl for the last year pretty much all the time because she would just stand up wherever she was and go.

That seems a very different scenario to a tiny , active, stressed , reactive, submissive , sensitive mite of a dog ...I would not add anything to her almost insurmountable load of stressors at all!

poor little darling - any quality of life seems to only exist when she breathes the same air as her humans ..and that's so sad .

I couldn't have a dog who was so adversely affected by aloneness.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

My first Italian Greyhound had the same problem - I walked him 3 times a day, went home every lunchtime religiously, from work.

The MINUTE I disappeared from his sight - going into the bathroom and closing the door for instance - he would immediately wee and poo. He was a cruelty case.

I went through this with him for a few months until I got him a companion, problems stopped right away.

Do you leave the radio or TV on? Do you leave something with your scent on in the dog's bed?

Best thing is a companion dog. Alternatively, get some Chinese herbs - there are vets that prescribe them and they could work, but maybe not. This poor little dog is very unhappy, it's your job as the owner to do the very best to fix it and I don't agree with the heavy drugs, they are often expensive and not really dealing with the loneliness issue. Some dogs simply are no good as only dogs, full stop.

[Cosmolo]

Dogmad- another dog has been tried and did not improve the situation.

[corvus]

If the 'loneliness' issue stems from an anxiety issue, anti-anxiety drugs are entirely appropriate and DO deal DIRECTLY with the root cause of separation anxiety. If your dog has a physical illness you medicate for that illness. It's no different if your dog has an emotional illness. Psychotropic drugs are not inherently "heavy". Heavy dosages may be heavy. The drugs themselves can be administered at very low dosages like any other medication. It can take a bit of fiddling with dosages to find one that is right for a particular dog. I was reading a case the other day where the ideal dose for a particular dog was a small fraction of the normal dose. If the Reconcile had helped with the anxiety at all it would make sense to revisit with a different dosage. If it did nothing positive that does not mean Clomicalm won't help either. If the dog is distressed on a daily basis and her quality of life is compromised, that is reason enough to try a different medication in my mind. A nappy is not going to help the dog in the long run. Medication might.

[WreckitWhippet]

This poor dog has suffered for how long now ? 18 months ? Perhaps it's time to put her to sleep and be kind to an obviously suffering animal.

[juice]

I too think this dog must be in misery for most of its time, what an aweful situation for you.

I would try Sas's idea now, and if it doesn't work have a long hard think about the quality of life for her.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

My housetraining method involves no punishment - it's only about reward and praise. That's only part of the issue though, the separation anxiety will still cause her to wee/poo no matter what.

As you've already found the drugs weren't great, I would seriously recommend that you try Chinese herbs. I've had fantastic results with them and there is a vet in Melbourne that can help.

They do work for Sep Anx.

I tried them as a last resort for my old Iggy who'd been keeping me up all night for months - he wanted food. At first I'd feed him and then 5 mins later he wanted more food. Obviously it was nothing to do with being hungry, he had dementia. Nothing would settle him at night. He had been a cruelty case, he'd been starved and beaten so always had a major focus on food.

One day I fell asleep at the wheel on the way to work and decided I would have to put him to sleep, I couldn't go on.

A friend said her mother had experienced something similar with a young dog that she had and she'd tried Chinese herbs and that worked a treat.

I went to the 1 vet in Sydney that prescribes them and within 2 days of starting them, my dog was back to sleeping all night. I had him for another 8 months, we were both so much happier.

Perhaps your little dog was one of those dogs left outside 24/7 because the owners couldn't housetrain and punished her severely and it became a problem, leading to an anxious state. Poor little dog. It's great that you've persisted and tried a few things but I'd at least try the Chinese herbs. She needs to feel better than she does, it's very sad.

I've copied my housetraining tips here as it could be useful anyway - it won't stop the anxious wee/poo:

HOUSETRAINING TIPS

Ok - first thing to do is decide on the command (I call it “do wees”) you will repeat over and over. You have to really focus on the dog for about 2-3 days to be successful. You have a pocketful of special treats on hand all the time for the first 2-3 days.

Walk the dog several times a day and every time the dog wees, you get very excited and keep saying “Good boy/girl, do wees, do wees” – give the dog treats every time.

First thing in the morning, last thing at night and every time you see the dog eat or drink (both precursors to weeing) whisk the dog into the garden and repeat the command “do wees”. Get very excited and present treats every time dog goes.

The dog’s aim in life is to please you. If the dog should have an accident inside the house – say NOTHING at all. The dog soon gets the idea that when he/she goes outside you are really, really pleased and he/she gets rewarded.

NB: Please note that the smell of urine must be properly removed for any housetraining to be successful. There are products on the market such as “Urine Off” but they are very expensive. A mix of white vinegar and water is a much cheaper alternative and should work for tiles and other surfaces although you should always take care with wood etc. For carpet/rugs, I use either a mixture of Napisan/water or bicarb of soda and water. I completely soak the stain using a dab on technique with a cloth. When it is very wet, I use an old towel to soak up the excess moisture. Again, be careful on any expensive carpet/rug, I have never had any problems but I cannot guarantee any method here.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

One more thing, not every dog will go over her wee/poo. Some will but I've had more than one rescued dog here that has been absolutely bullet proof in that regard.

I've just lost my old Maltese, in the last couple of months, due to having dementia, he was having some accidents inside at night. My old Westie cross has always been a bit unreliable and has always been happy to mark whenever I got a foster dog and was in the process of housetraining but 2 of my dogs are the cleanest on the planet, I've had one of them for 7 years, he's a male Foxy and would never dream of having any sort of accident inside.

[sas]

So the Behaviourist gave you a 'diagnosis' what did they tell you to do about it?

[corvus]

Which Chinese herbs are we talking about? If they have active ingredients, you can consider those drugs. I'd want to know exactly what was in them and what the active ingredient does. It may be important if the dog is ever on any other medication. These things can interact. There are drugs your vet can prescribe for dog dementia that will help them with things like incontinence and unsettled sleeping patterns, and the dosage is generally more of a known quantity than that of herbs, because they are better regulated.

[alpha bet]

Paddo Pup - firstly have to commend you for your effort and commitment not many would put up with this for so long. Solution is not going to happen easily and may not achieve everything you wish however perhaps with a multi facet approach you might end up with a workable arrangement. Many good suggestions and I shall add my thoughts - slow process but you seem prepared to work with her.

Zoning - firstly it would be worth investing in a solid indoor pen. One that is large enough initially to go around a large section of the tiled common area such as the family eating area (ideally set up around the dining table if tiled). With a door to allow humans and dogs to walk thru when open. Initially you want a large enough area where perhaps you can sit at the table inside the pen so that she feels that this is part of the home and not shut away. Her bed, toilet tray and feed/water is in here. This can become a place she is comfortable whereas away in the bathroom etc is locked away. In time you may be able to reduce the size of the area and she will feel okay with it.

Playtimes - find a puppy school (some allow older small dogs) or social training class where you can take her to give her a chance to become more social with other dogs.... she needs to feel comfortable in her dog skin and the best way to do this is for her to mix with easy going dogs of all sizes and age. This might take 3 months or more before she lowers her guard enough to make friends and should happen naturally without you or any person trying to force the friendships - let her deal with dogs coming over to say Hi even if she doesnt like it - what you need to do is give her time to develop a natural curiousity to what these dogs are doing..... once she doesnt feel threatened by the environment she will probably enjoy watching and might even tentatively start to follow. Hopefully within time she will develop a liking to particular personality types. With time you might find you can explore more social options such as visiting friends and have them visit with their dog.

Exercise - she might be small but she has built up energy that needs to be worked - lots of fast walks and even the chance to get down to a lake or beach and chase the water. She needs a chance to feel more like a dog and less like a victim. It is not just physical but mental - she needs to use her brain for other things - get a book on tricks or better still enroll in a trick class or dancing with dogs.....

Feed - get her off ANY commercial dog foods and onto one of the All Natural Raw diets (Barf or VAN are great) - removing all colours, preservatives, additives and sugars will allow her body to cope much more. This includes any of the treats you give her - instead some dogs enjoy pieces of apple, pear or even small slices of carrot - especially if you have been eating this. She may take a few weeks to get used to a new diet but persevere she will eat when she is hungry.

Drugs - I am never a fan of drugs as this will often mask behaviours and her natural reactions thus prevent a dog from developing the social skills to cope with what society throws at them. However if the above exercise and feed is sorted then try a short program of drugs.

Best of luck

[Paddo Pup]

So the Behaviourist gave you a 'diagnosis' what did they tell you to do about it?

Her advice:

*Obedience school which we did.

*Start toilet training from the very beginning, if we can make 4 weeks without an accident we have succeded. If we have one accident we start from the beginning. The longest we've ever made it was 4 days. She had us us try crating but I dont think she understood how distressed the dog got inside the crate when we were not home.

Last night I went out for 1 hour and put her in the bathroom in her bed with a gym shirt of my husband's. I came home and she had shredded the bathroom door.

We've been told not to reprimand her for accidents as it is like car sickness and childern, she can't help it. It's pretty hard walking inside to find numerous wet spots and worse on the carpet each week though.

[persephone]

*Obedience school which we did.<br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247);">*Start toilet training from the very beginning, if we can make 4 weeks without an accident we have succeded. If we have one accident we start from the beginning. The longest we've ever made it was 4 days. She had us us try crating but I dont think she understood how distressed the dog got inside the crate when we were not home.

and that is nowhere near enough information to give owners of such a sad, stressed little dog .

So the behaviourist never saw the dog crated, either by video or anything?

What did teh behaviourist say about how the dog reacted with you at home ... and when you locked her outside with the behaviourist there ..what comment on dog's behaviour then?

[persephone]

Paddo Pup ..grab a (large) coffee and read this thread right through .... it will show you many of the ups& downs you have experienced, and many you have not!! it will also show the difference having decent professional advice made in this case. LINK TO THREAD

Obviously each dog/home life/owner is different .. so strategies need to be tailored to the individual situation .

Sometimes though , dogs are born nervous and sensitive , and repeated stresses worsen it ... then the kindest thing is to let them have their wings and find peace...

[Paddo Pup]

Paddo Pup ..grab a (large) coffee and read this thread right through .... it will show you many of the ups& downs you have experienced, and many you have not!! it will also show the difference having decent professional advice made in this case. LINK TO THREAD

Obviously each dog/home life/owner is different .. so strategies need to be tailored to the individual situation .

Sometimes though , dogs are born nervous and sensitive , and repeated stresses worsen it ... then the kindest thing is to let them have their wings and find peace...

I dont wish to sound like a know it all but the kind suggestions regarding exercise, food, zoning.... we've honestly tried it all. She goes to dog day care 1-2 days a week to socialise with other dogs and our local dog parks every day. My husband and I are very active and our dog is taken for daily morning runs and long walks as we notice she is much calmer if she has been allowed to burn out her energy.

I cannot imagine putting her down, she's only 3 years old and so full of life, playful and affectionate. She's touched all our friends and family so much since we got her. My father for example always hated dogs (crazy!) and I have overheard him babytalking to her!

I really am at my wits end though. I just dont know what else to try besides dog diapers and more drugs. I have printed off the very helpful notes from Great Dane Rescue and there are some new ideas in there we can try especially regarding leadership. We so wanted to do the right thing by adopting a rescue dog and whilst we love her to bits our journey has been very difficult. We didn't even know what separation anxiety was until 2 months after we adopted her and now it seems to rule our life.

[corvus]

Drugs - I am never a fan of drugs as this will often mask behaviours and her natural reactions thus prevent a dog from developing the social skills to cope with what society throws at them. However if the above exercise and feed is sorted then try a short program of drugs.

Ugh, the drugs do not "mask" behaviours and natural reactions. This stigma is way out of control. People need to learn about what these drugs actually do and how. We know what the natural behaviours and reactions are and they are impacting negatively on the dog's health and well-being. That's why we put dogs on these medications in the first place. Because their brain chemistry is messing up their ability to learn to moderate their natural behaviours and reactions so that they are more normal. The whole point of the drugs is to regulate their brain chemistry to facilitate that learning. Often once they learn you can take them off the drugs and everything sticks. Sometimes the dog is just naturally prone to brain chemistry imbalances and they stay on a maintenance dose long-term, just like some people do. Drugs are not supposed to be some magic bullet that changes behaviour so everything is fixed. They're supposed to be an aid in behavioural modification. And they are often a very effective one.

My advice is don't take advice off the internet. No one here can see how distressed your dog is and how they are showing this and what the maintaining conditions for those problem behaviours might be. Get a vet behaviourist to see the dog and talk about your options.

[corvus]

Where in NSW are you, Paddo Pup? Members may be able to recommend a good vet behaviourist. If you are at your wit's end and the dog is distressed enough that you think it is having a significant negative impact on her quality of life, please go and see a vet behaviourist. Everybody's welfare is at stake, yours and the dog's. They are expensive, but they see this kind of thing all the time and they will know better than anyone on an internet forum how best to treat it.

[persephone]

If you are at your wit's end and the dog is distressed enough that you think it is having a significant negative impact on her quality of life, please go and see a vet behaviourist. Everybody's welfare is at stake, yours and the dog's. They are expensive, but they see this kind of thing all the time and they will know better than anyone on an internet forum how best to treat it.

No one here can see how distressed your dog is and how they are showing this and what the maintaining conditions for those problem behaviours might be. Get a vet behaviourist to see the dog and talk about your options.

*agrees with corvus!*

[Paddo Pup]

Where in NSW are you, Paddo Pup? Members may be able to recommend a good vet behaviourist. If you are at your wit's end and the dog is distressed enough that you think it is having a significant negative impact on her quality of life, please go and see a vet behaviourist. Everybody's welfare is at stake, yours and the dog's. They are expensive, but they see this kind of thing all the time and they will know better than anyone on an internet forum how best to treat it.

We are in the Eastern suburbs and we have had numerous discussions with our vet and our behaviour therapist. My issue is that she is so content and easy when we are with her that putting her down just seems so extreme and sad. Her story before us in not good, she had cherry eye and numerous operations, at least 3 homes that we know of after she was dumped and then rescued.

[tdierikx]

The suggestion of a penned area to contain her accident zone might be worth trying... you can buy them at most pet supply stores, or even better, try going to Vebopet (website www.vebopet.com.au) for the best prices.

Have you tried maybe playing a recording of your voices to her while you are out? A simple mp3 player set to repeat a playlist through a speaker might work for that. Also maybe a largish teddy bear that you can put an item of yours on/around to make it smell like you?

How does she do at daycare? Does she display any anxiety there at all? If not, then maybe you need to look into it as a permanent option for when you have to go out for long periods like work. Also maybe looking into friends or relatives who might be able to babysit her for you...

I'd love to know which rescue adopted her to you... by PM if you want to share that detail. Did they know of her separation issues at the time of adoption and/or give you any pointers on how they dealt with it?

T.