persephone Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 My issue is that she is so content and easy when we are with her that putting her down just seems so extreme and sad. ... have a read of that thread I linked to ... you will find much in there which may help with the way you are thinking .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 PaddoPup, I'm sorry to hear about the troubles you and your dog are going through. I think you might be suffering from a bit of Burn Out which happens when you try very hard for a long time and the things you've done haven't improved the situation. I do believe there are more things you can try, be it medication or a behavioural therapy. But if you're feeling burnt out you probably don't have the energy to take on the challenges of trying new things. I wonder if you can find a way to recoup for a little bit. Maybe this could be done by having someone else mind her for you during the times you are not home? Just for a week or something, for you to feel a little less burnt out and feel like you have regained some of your energy. Then you could re-examine the situation with and make a decision from there. I could of course be way off the mark, you'll know yourself if I am :) . I just think that because behaviour modification is up to us humans to implement it can be important to think about how we are feeling and coping with the process, as we are the other half of the equation. It sounds like you have already committed so much to her, and you are very fond of her :) . I can only imagine how exhausting and stressful it must be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosetta Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Paddo Pup, believe me I have been there and done that and know exactly how you feel. Most people mean well with their advice to try this and that. The trouble is most of these methods may only work for mild cases. I honestly wish I had tried drug therapy early on combined with some behavioural strategies before the behaviours became too entrenched. It is not helpful for people to discount the use of drugs in these severe cases - I'm sorry but most have no idea of the reality of living day to day with one of these dogs. Behaviourists - in my experience - cannot cure the severe cases. There is a definite place for drug therapy. If people suffer from severe depression and/or anxiety drug therapy is accepted - why not for dogs? My advice would be to perhaps seek out a more experienced vet who is able to work with you around drug options and dosages. This is a heartbreaking problem and I wish you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 We are in the Eastern suburbs and we have had numerous discussions with our vet and our behaviour therapist. My issue is that she is so content and easy when we are with her that putting her down just seems so extreme and sad. Her story before us in not good, she had cherry eye and numerous operations, at least 3 homes that we know of after she was dumped and then rescued. I'm not trying to put down either because I don't know who they are and what you've been through, but if you're really serious about helping her I would see someone at Sydney Animal Behaviour Service in Seaforth. They are extraordinarily expensive, but no one in NSW is better qualified to help you handle this than Kersti Seksal. If she or one of her co-workers can't help you find a solution that will improve your dog's emotional state when you have to leave her, I doubt anyone can. If you can't afford them and are not already seeing her, my second choice would be Jo Righetti. She is not a vet behaviourist, but is very experienced and All Natural Vet Care in Russell Lea work with her. She possibly works with a few other vets as well. I get that you are probably feeling pretty despairing at this point and that you have tried everything. Hang in there. I agree that if she is content and happy when you are with her it seems you should go above and beyond to try to help her for those times when she can't be with you. It is very exhausting, though, and it gets harder and harder to find the will to try yet another thing when nothing yet has really made a significant improvement. But I don't think managing the toileting issue is a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddo Pup Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 We are in the Eastern suburbs and we have had numerous discussions with our vet and our behaviour therapist. My issue is that she is so content and easy when we are with her that putting her down just seems so extreme and sad. Her story before us in not good, she had cherry eye and numerous operations, at least 3 homes that we know of after she was dumped and then rescued. I'm not trying to put down either because I don't know who they are and what you've been through, but if you're really serious about helping her I would see someone at Sydney Animal Behaviour Service in Seaforth. They are extraordinarily expensive, but no one in NSW is better qualified to help you handle this than Kersti Seksal. If she or one of her co-workers can't help you find a solution that will improve your dog's emotional state when you have to leave her, I doubt anyone can. If you can't afford them and are not already seeing her, my second choice would be Jo Righetti. She is not a vet behaviourist, but is very experienced and All Natural Vet Care in Russell Lea work with her. She possibly works with a few other vets as well. I get that you are probably feeling pretty despairing at this point and that you have tried everything. Hang in there. I agree that if she is content and happy when you are with her it seems you should go above and beyond to try to help her for those times when she can't be with you. It is very exhausting, though, and it gets harder and harder to find the will to try yet another thing when nothing yet has really made a significant improvement. But I don't think managing the toileting issue is a solution. Thank you, we were advised to contact the Sydney Animal Behaviour Service in Seaforth and my husband refused to pay such high fees. I will try Jo today. I am defintely feeling exhausted by it as we've had a particularly BAD week and she has only been alone for about 3 hours total. It's only Friday! Putting her down doesn't feel like the right answer but I am starting to think depsite all the effort we have put in maybe she needs to be homed with someone who almost never goes out? Then put ito a large backyard with no neighbours when she is left alone. We've had a few complaints from our neighbours so leaving heroutside is not an option. She is too active for an eldery person so I dont know if I am even thinking along the right track here! We'd be devastated to let her go too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddo Pup Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 PaddoPup, I'm sorry to hear about the troubles you and your dog are going through. I think you might be suffering from a bit of Burn Out which happens when you try very hard for a long time and the things you've done haven't improved the situation. I do believe there are more things you can try, be it medication or a behavioural therapy. But if you're feeling burnt out you probably don't have the energy to take on the challenges of trying new things. I wonder if you can find a way to recoup for a little bit. Maybe this could be done by having someone else mind her for you during the times you are not home? Just for a week or something, for you to feel a little less burnt out and feel like you have regained some of your energy. Then you could re-examine the situation with and make a decision from there. I could of course be way off the mark, you'll know yourself if I am :) . I just think that because behaviour modification is up to us humans to implement it can be important to think about how we are feeling and coping with the process, as we are the other half of the equation. It sounds like you have already committed so much to her, and you are very fond of her :) . I can only imagine how exhausting and stressful it must be. Yes I think Burn Out sounds about right. This week has been a bad week carpet wise. We hafe a two week holiday cming up next month and she is staying with friends who work from home and have a rescue dog of their own who plays well with our dog. It's the best place for our dog but I am feeling very guilty about the mess they have to clean up when they need to go go out too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 .... Rehoming this girl is not really an option, IMO. EVERYONE needs to go away from home at some stage ..or leave dog inside/outside alone.... and it wouldn't be fair on owners or dog . I think your friends deserve a medal! I wouldn't do it ....... Glad you are getting a good break , anyway - it will help! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 PaddoPup, I'm sorry to hear about the troubles you and your dog are going through. I think you might be suffering from a bit of Burn Out which happens when you try very hard for a long time and the things you've done haven't improved the situation. I do believe there are more things you can try, be it medication or a behavioural therapy. But if you're feeling burnt out you probably don't have the energy to take on the challenges of trying new things. I wonder if you can find a way to recoup for a little bit. Maybe this could be done by having someone else mind her for you during the times you are not home? Just for a week or something, for you to feel a little less burnt out and feel like you have regained some of your energy. Then you could re-examine the situation with and make a decision from there. I could of course be way off the mark, you'll know yourself if I am :) . I just think that because behaviour modification is up to us humans to implement it can be important to think about how we are feeling and coping with the process, as we are the other half of the equation. It sounds like you have already committed so much to her, and you are very fond of her :) . I can only imagine how exhausting and stressful it must be. Yes I think Burn Out sounds about right. This week has been a bad week carpet wise. We hafe a two week holiday cming up next month and she is staying with friends who work from home and have a rescue dog of their own who plays well with our dog. It's the best place for our dog but I am feeling very guilty about the mess they have to clean up when they need to go go out too. I'm glad to hear that :) Friends are gold aren't they? Don't let yourself feel guilty, just make sure they know how much you appreciate it (as I'm sure you would anyway) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 You say it started 2 months after you got her, so she was fine to start with? Did the rescue say anything about it? Perhaps some leadership skills need to be implemented if she was molly coddled too much when you got her? If your hubby doesn't want to pay for help, perhaps get him to clear the crap up ,might change his mind :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) Agree entirely with Juice. Pando Pupp I've only had a quick skim through the thread and a couple of things crossed my mind... you say you've tried 'everything' and I'm sure you have - but is that the problem? Have you stuck really well and consistently to a composite solution many have been suggested) over a long enough period of time? Chopping and changing all the time will confuse the dog and lead you to beleive nothing works when its time and consistency you might need. Just a thought. Also to follow-up on Juice's comments about leadership - I must admit I got the same feeling skimming through the thread - so the question occurred to me does this littel dog have a clearly defined leader? Your posts read as if this might be an area for further work. There has been a similar thread on DOL recently with a severe SA dog who only started to turn the corner when a behaviourist got involved over a reasonable amount of time. I genuinely think its time for a really good behaviourist as Corvus suggests. Lastly, please forgive me for saying this bluntly - but the destruction the dog has wrought around the house may have paid for the behaviourists that Corvus suggested. So it seems to me either pay for the behaviourist or pay for the ongoing damage. And in my view, the longer you leave this, the harder and more expensive it is going to be to fix - either through damage or vet behaviourist fees. So very kindly, I strongly recommend you persuade your husband to reconsider a behaviourist through having him deal with the dog for a couple of weeks and cleaning up the mess and damage and then have the conversation with him again. Otherwise I think you seriously have to consider whether this level of misery is fair to the dog and fair to you. Again my apologies if I've come across a bit curtly or a bit bluntly - I'm rattling this off fairly quickly between other committments. Best of luck. ETA Here's a link I found years ago as a new dog owner which I found really helpful - while not the same problem I found the description of the leadership behaviours and strategies useful. Hope it helps. You say it started 2 months after you got her, so she was fine to start with? Did the rescue say anything about it? Perhaps some leadership skills need to be implemented if she was molly coddled too much when you got her? If your hubby doesn't want to pay for help, perhaps get him to clear the crap up ,might change his mind :) Edited June 7, 2013 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddo Pup Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 You say it started 2 months after you got her, so she was fine to start with? Did the rescue say anything about it? Perhaps some leadership skills need to be implemented if she was molly coddled too much when you got her? If your hubby doesn't want to pay for help, perhaps get him to clear the crap up ,might change his mind :) It took us two months to properly understand what was going on and recognise this as S.A. as we thought she just didn't know where we wanted her to toilet. Hubby has been ok with paying things up to date, she's cost us a small fortune. He draws the line at their fees though. I understand they are meant to be the best but it's too high for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schnauzer Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Hi Paddo Pup I feel your pain. I have a seven year old rescue bitch that has separation anxiety. The issue with my dog is that it is dangerous - she shreds and eats fabric She originally ate some clothing of mine and then settled. For a reason unknown to me two weeks ago she ripped my doona and ate some of the cover - rushed to emergency for induced vomiting. I thought this was a one off. Not to be - she ripped some linen and luckily I got home before she ate it. I had a long consult with my vet and we have now put her on clomicalm for a period of time while I try to alter the status in my home. I want to make her more independent of me and know it is ok to be alone (she has two other dogs as well). All doors are shut within the house and her basket has been placed in hallway. Sas's and Mita's methods are fantastic and I am following a lot of their advice and procedures. I am also now incorporating 20 mins of obedience training every morning after a long walk. So far so good. I had no hesitation in putting her on clomicalm and hopefully she will be weaned off it in a month or two. I also spoke to a behaviourist who gave me some great advice. Just a note about the toilet training - I had a rescue dog here that took months to toilet train - some dogs learn much quicker than others. I am in the eastern subs and work in Paddington if you need any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosetta Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Agree entirely with Juice. Pando Pupp I've only had a quick skim through the thread and a couple of things crossed my mind... you say you've tried 'everything' and I'm sure you have - but is that the problem? Have you stuck really well and consistently to a composite solution many have been suggested) over a long enough period of time? Chopping and changing all the time will confuse the dog and lead you to beleive nothing works when its time and consistency you might need. Just a thought. Also to follow-up on Juice's comments about leadership - I must admit I got the same feeling skimming through the thread - so the question occurred to me does this littel dog have a clearly defined leader? Your posts read as if this might be an area for further work. There has been a similar thread on DOL recently with a severe SA dog who only started to turn the corner when a behaviourist got involved over a reasonable amount of time. I genuinely think its time for a really good behaviourist as Corvus suggests. Lastly, please forgive me for saying this bluntly - but the destruction the dog has wrought around the house may have paid for the behaviourists that Corvus suggested. So it seems to me either pay for the behaviourist or pay for the ongoing damage. And in my view, the longer you leave this, the harder and more expensive it is going to be to fix - either through damage or vet behaviourist fees. So very kindly, I strongly recommend you persuade your husband to reconsider a behaviourist through having him deal with the dog for a couple of weeks and cleaning up the mess and damage and then have the conversation with him again. Otherwise I think you seriously have to consider whether this level of misery is fair to the dog and fair to you. Again my apologies if I've come across a bit curtly or a bit bluntly - I'm rattling this off fairly quickly between other committments. Best of luck. ETA Here's a link I found years ago as a new dog owner which I found really helpful - while not the same problem I found the description of the leadership behaviours and strategies useful. Hope it helps. You say it started 2 months after you got her, so she was fine to start with? Did the rescue say anything about it? Perhaps some leadership skills need to be implemented if she was molly coddled too much when you got her? If your hubby doesn't want to pay for help, perhaps get him to clear the crap up ,might change his mind :) We don't really know the outcome in that case though? It will be very interesting to know if the problem has alleviated substantially or not - I got the impression that the dog was confined to a crate where it was unable to hurt itself but otherwise was still stressed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 We don't really know the outcome in that case though? It will be very interesting to know if the problem has alleviated substantially or not - I got the impression that the dog was confined to a crate where it was unable to hurt itself but otherwise was still stressed? rosetta .. perhaps have a read of recent posts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) Which Chinese herbs are we talking about? If they have active ingredients, you can consider those drugs. I'd want to know exactly what was in them and what the active ingredient does. It may be important if the dog is ever on any other medication. These things can interact. There are drugs your vet can prescribe for dog dementia that will help them with things like incontinence and unsettled sleeping patterns, and the dosage is generally more of a known quantity than that of herbs, because they are better regulated. Chinese herbs as prescribed by the All Natural Vet at Russell Lea - I've seen most of the vets there at one time or another (including Barbara Fougere and Joanne Rhigetti) for dogs with different ailments and illnesses - some that were only given weeks to live by other vets but lived on for a long time after treatment there. My friend's dog had anxiety and my Italian had dementia causing anxiety. I've also referred people there with dogs with sep anx. For sep anx I would always recommend this vet. For some reason I had thought the OP was in VIC or I would have immediately suggested they go to the ANV at R.Lea. Edited June 7, 2013 by dogmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddo Pup Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 Thanks I've spoken to R Lea and emailed Jo. Wish us luck. Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Keep us posted please :) best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Crossing fingers that you have much success with Russel Lea vets... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 photos/videos/sound recordings will all help the vets, too .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 photos/videos/sound recordings will all help the vets, too .... Good thought Persephone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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