Switching From A Food Reward To A Tug/ball

[Lisey]

I'm wanting to wean Booker off food rewards at obedience.

He becomes very focused on my hand and/or treats. I've started cutting back treats with the basic things that he knows well but sometimes he won't drop unless I have a treat in my hand already and it becomes a stand off (but other times he does it fine...)

I'd like the reward to be a quick tug of a toy or something at the end of a set of instructions if that makes sense (not reward each time he sits/stays/drops/etc.)

Should I buy a new tug that I only bring out for training? And start with this at home?

I'm very new to this whole world of obedience and would love some suggestions.

He is a really smart boy and I'd love to compete with him one day - we just have a lot of work to do.

[ness]

What does he find the MOST rewarding Lisey? You can certainly mix up using food and toys but how rewarding does Booker find a toy? There are plenty of dogs who are trained predominantly or even exclusively using food rewards for obedience.

[Lisey]

He finds most things pretty exciting... He does enjoy a game of tug at home and will chase balls/frisbees.... But he does love food also, not to the obsessive point like my girl does though.

If I have anything to give him (food/toy, etc.) he will do what I ask. My two are a bit weird and like chewing on grass (they are like cows grazing), they do it all the time and they definitly aren't sick. I can be sitting on the lawn with him and pick a blade of grass up and then I have his attention and he will drop/roll over, etc. just for that blade! :laugh:

[Kavik]

You could start at home with a ball or tug, then go to more exciting locations. With food, instead of having it in your hand, have you tried having it somewhere else (pocket, container on shelf etc) and giving the cue then giving the reward? It seems to me the issue is more about the dog being able to see the reward/knowing it is right there, then the type of reward you are using.

[Lisey]

I keep it in a treat pouch - but he knows exactly what that is...

[Weasels]

I agree with Kavik it doesn't sound like moving to a tug will necessarily solve the problem. Do you use a clicker or marker word? It's generally the easiest way to fade a lure if they know the reward doesn't have to be in sight to be coming. Even if you go back to capturing an uncued behaviour (like lying down) with a marker, then producing a reward from a table or somewhere sneaky. Also introducing behaviour rewards (sometimes called 'life rewards' or the Premack Principle) like being allowed to go sniff or go run that you can use anywhere anytime, might help :)

[Lisey]

I agree with Kavik it doesn't sound like moving to a tug will necessarily solve the problem. Do you use a clicker or marker word? It's generally the easiest way to fade a lure if they know the reward doesn't have to be in sight to be coming. Even if you go back to capturing an uncued behaviour (like lying down) with a marker, then producing a reward from a table or somewhere sneaky. Also introducing behaviour rewards (sometimes called 'life rewards' or the Premack Principle) like being allowed to go sniff or go run that you can use anywhere anytime, might help :)

I give him a lot of verbal praise (with and without a treat) and a pat when he doesn't get a treat... So when he does something right he gets a 'Good boy!'

I've been told that he gets too many treats by a trainer at obedience class.

[persephone]

I do not normally use food for training ...but this sounds to me like he has not learned to complete a task and then wait for his reward? perhaps you start the reward process a fraction soon ..and now he expects it earlier ?

[Kavik]

Rather than use your treat pouch (dogs get to know those very well!) have you tried having your treats in your pocket or in a container somewhere else? If in a container ask eg for a sit, then release and run to the container and get reward.

For me, the number of rewards depends on several things: How well does the dog know the exercise? How distracting is the environment? How well is the dog performing the exercise

(do I want to improve performance)?

Rather than thinking about it in terms of phasing out rewards, you could think about it as making them work harder to earn rewards. So if the dog is performing the exercise as quickly and proficiently as you would like, you could add duration or distractions etc before giving the reward, make him work harder.

Probably different in obedience, but in agility I always use rewards. Before my run I get my dog focused and excited and ready to work with fun games and running and chasing me, for food rewards. Depending what I want to reward in my turn, I may reward at the end of the sequence or at a particular obstacle that I want to improve, or a small part of the sequence with difficult handling. I reward sequences and obstacles mostly with a toy.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Kavik

[Lisey]

I do not normally use food for training ...but this sounds to me like he has not learned to complete a task and then wait for his reward? perhaps you start the reward process a fraction soon ..and now he expects it earlier ?

How do you teach your dogs?

It's hard to explain - most of the time he will do what I ask (and I don't have a treat in my hand) but I am still wearing the pouch but there are times that he refuses - maybe because he didn't get a treat last time and is not sure he will this time?

[persephone]

How do you teach your dogs?

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Mostly vocal praise ... and a skritch here& there ... ... The way I was taught many many years back .....MInd you, I don't 'train' for public obedience trials or anything ...

:)

[persephone]

most of the time he will do what I ask (and I don't have a treat in my hand) but I am still wearing the pouch but there are times that he refuses -

I think he has trained yo u when to dole out the treats ;) The finer points of body language , and habit, can be powerful,almost invisible teachers !

[Lisey]

Rather than use your treat pouch (dogs get to know those very well!) have you tried having your treats in your pocket or in a container somewhere else? If in a container ask eg for a sit, then release and run to the container and get reward.

For me, the number of rewards depends on several things: How well does the dog know the exercise? How distracting is the environment? How well is the dog performing the exercise

(do I want to improve performance)?

Rather than thinking about it in terms of phasing out rewards, you could think about it as making them work harder to earn rewards. So if the dog is performing the exercise as quickly and proficiently as you would like, you could add duration or distractions etc before giving the reward, make him work harder.

Probably different in obedience, but in agility I always use rewards. Before my run I get my dog focused and excited and ready to work with fun games and running and chasing me, for food rewards. Depending what I want to reward in my turn, I may reward at the end of the sequence or at a particular obstacle that I want to improve, or a small part of the sequence with difficult handling. I reward sequences and obstacles mostly with a toy.

I'll try having them in my pocket and see how that goes. He is starting to swing his head around in front of my legs looking up for the treat when we are heeling. I think I need to swap my hand that rewards him (currently my right).

Is this something you can get a trainer/behaviourist out to work on? We go to obedience twice a week (2 different places) but it would be good to have some 1 on 1 to give me some pointers.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Lisey

[Lisey]

most of the time he will do what I ask (and I don't have a treat in my hand) but I am still wearing the pouch but there are times that he refuses -

I think he has trained yo u when to dole out the treats ;) The finer points of body language , and habit, can be powerful,almost invisible teachers !

Haha yes I agree. I need to swap it around :)

[Weasels]

I'll try having them in my pocket and see how that goes. He is starting to swing his head around in front of my legs looking up for the treat when we are heeling. I think I need to swap my hand that rewards him (currently my right).

Yes, reward in the position you want :)

Is this something you can get a trainer/behaviourist out to work on? We go to obedience twice a week (2 different places) but it would be good to have some 1 on 1 to give me some pointers.

There is an online heeling course available that just started but you can still sign up - http://denisefenzi.com/2013/05/23/heeling-games/ ($65 for an 'observer' spot) which is all about building motivation and should help with understanding reward generally if that's the kind of thing you're looking for :) If you can video your own training it can help a lot to see what you're 'really' doing too.

[Lisey]

I'll try having them in my pocket and see how that goes. He is starting to swing his head around in front of my legs looking up for the treat when we are heeling. I think I need to swap my hand that rewards him (currently my right).

Yes, reward in the position you want :)

Is this something you can get a trainer/behaviourist out to work on? We go to obedience twice a week (2 different places) but it would be good to have some 1 on 1 to give me some pointers.

There is an online heeling course available that just started but you can still sign up - http://denisefenzi.com/2013/05/23/heeling-games/ ($65 for an 'observer' spot) which is all about building motivation and should help with understanding reward generally if that's the kind of thing you're looking for :) If you can video your own training it can help a lot to see what you're 'really' doing too.

Thank you! I'll look into that :)

[huski]

Before I start teaching anything formal like heelwork I make sure my dogs learn how to play a game with me and understand how to earn rewards. From your posts it sounds like your dogs understanding of how to gain a reward isn't necessarily clear.

If you are new to obedience but want to aim higher (i.e. competing), think about what kind of work you want to aim for - do you want your dog to have lots of focus and fast snappy heelwork? Is there a style or look you prefer over others? There are heaps of obedience videos on YouTube, so that is a good place to start, it might also be worthwhile going to some trials to see what goes on and how other people are working their dogs and what competitors might inspire you towards a certain style of training. Once you have a picture in your mind of what you want to achieve, you can set some goals as to how to get there. There are lots of different ways to approach obedience training, however some methods are more geared towards getting the most out of your dogs natural drive for rewards than others.

Edited June 4, 2013 by huski

[Lisey]

Before I start teaching anything formal like heelwork I make sure my dogs learn how to play a game with me and understand how to earn rewards. From your posts it sounds like your dogs understanding of how to gain a reward isn't necessarily clear.

If you are new to obedience but want to aim higher (i.e. competing), think about what kind of work you want to aim for - do you want your dog to have lots of focus and fast snappy heelwork? Is there a style or look you prefer over others? There are heaps of obedience videos on YouTube, so that is a good place to start, it might also be worthwhile going to some trials to see what goes on and how other people are working their dogs and what competitors might inspire you towards a certain style of training. Once you have a picture in your mind of what you want to achieve, you can set some goals as to how to get there. There are lots of different ways to approach obedience training, however some methods are geared towards getting the most out of your dogs natural drive for rewards than others.

Thanks huski.... I'll have a look at some youtube clips - is there any in particular I should search for?

The club we go to on Monday nights asked if I could help out at their upcoming trial - I've never been so I think I will so that I can watch what happens :)

[Nekhbet]

The problem is not the food it's your parameters you reward.

You only reward for focus on your face, NOT on your hand. You also only reward when the dog holds position and does not move no matter what your hand is doing. So eg, for sit the dog has to sit, look you in the face YES reward. It can help to start by putting your hand next to your eyes so the gap for the dog to look at is not too big and move from there.

It's a training issue that is very common. As for the drop, I have a couple of ways. One is to crouch down and lure into a drop holding the collar. Move hand away if dog goes to follow apply a tiny bit of pressure on the collar. When the dog relaxes out of the pressure on the collar in the right position bring the hand back to reward. You move from there. I have also learned to drop some food between the front legs in tiny crumbs and stand up, then repeat the 'drop' command. This is from a person who has taught hand signal free drops, you can dance a jig around the dogs they wont move.

For heeling, people think it's a walking exercise - it means stick to my left leg no matter what the handler is doing. The problem arise because we expect the dog to do a formal exercise, concentrate and learn it in motion which is too easy to stuff up. You start with one step. Left leg start one step, full focus. I do a bit of Michael Ellis find the leg exercise with teh dogs too, you leave your left next to the dog while it's in a sit and move your right leg back/foreward/side then return and reward the dog for focus the whole time. Too many people rush the heel which is why the dog doesnt do it. You also need to give constant feedback that the dog is doing correctly. Ivan Balanbanov uses GOOD DOG as a 'you're on the right track' marker then YES/click when the dog completes it properly then reward. This way the dog knows it's doing the right then and will keep performing NOT looking for a reward. Feedback is very important, just keep saying good dog when the dog is doing correctly to extend the length of the position/behavior then mark and reward. Very clear and concise, the dog will improve very quickly as well.

Remember what the dog does is a direct reflection on what you have rewarded/allowed. A ball or toy will not fix the problems, it will reward the same problems in a different manner.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Nekhbet

[Lisey]

Ok thanks Nekhbet. I've not thought about it like that before, I've always just rewarded as soon as he's done what I've asked and not worried about what he is looking at.

ETA- I've got so much to learn!

Edited June 4, 2013 by Lisey