Can Some Dogs Just Be Mean?

[inez]

What do people honestly expect when the breeding of dogs is a free for all, breed what you like, when you like to whatever you like and the community suffers the consequences of poorly bred dogs with character deficiencies and flaws.......what do people think will be the result in a breeding system that has no accountability for what is being produced?

A car manufacturer produces a car with a faulty brake system and authorities force a national recall where the manufacturer is responsible to rectify the problem and can be held accountable for public saftey. A breeder whether that be a BYB or registered breeder, can mismatch two dogs to produce fear biters or traits of uncapped aggression and that's ok..........IMHO it's not ok at all, these breeders of crap dogs need to be held accountable.

The Rotty for example who attacked the child's face........what sort of a Rotty is this thing, who bred the damn dog with what in the parentage.....the dog was so short in nerve, so displaced in suspicion that it needed to attack a child assumed as a threat, or was the dog scared of the child and attacked out of fear......whatever the case........that dog was a crap Rotty at all levels......I doubt the Rotty had been trained to attack kids in a working role, the dog was clearly of poor breeding, but as we speak, the breeder of that dog could be preserving the poor trait quality in the next litter for the next accident to happen with the next unstable dog they produce excellent isn't it

The sad thing is that people in the "tough breeds" actually do purposely breed these types of dangerous dogs.......even in working circles, they can often promote and breed dogs of unstable character and condemn dogs of stable character as not having enough "civil drive" because they don't know how to select or train a dog of balanced temperament and character for the working roles they breed for. The same applies with many of these Bull breed concoctions, purposely breeding powerful dogs with high levels of social aggression as pets come protection dogs......it's these dogs getting out when the owner drops the ball that ends up in scenarios like the recent jogger attack.

It's time breeders of dangerous dogs are held accountable.....stopping at the owner isn't good enough to lessen the chance of further attacks.....breed crap dogs of unstable character and it's involved in an unprovoked attack look out is how IMHO it needs to be.

Dear dog, the ignorance & hatred of some people is upsetting, especially on a dog lovers forum.

Unfortunately the above response seems to be the general response from anyone that does have the good ones. Complete denial, as if thats going to make the problem when they happen, go poof in the night and dissappear? At least they hope from peoples minds. If a prolem is not addressed and solved it doesnt tend to go away by itself. Its all the joggers fault thinking they were a bull breed or the paper to notice.

I have no idea of the figures these days since there are so few of them around now. but in the 70's on average 37 people were killed by Jersey bulls Annually.

Did they shoot every bull? Nope. Were they allowed to run the streets? No, The message was NEVER put yourself in needless danger and amazingly when the message went out the numbers dropped. At least most of the unlucky either owned it or worked there.

Even public awareness of taking more care has been done to try and drop traffic deaths

Edited June 1, 2013 by inez

[Santo66]

Dear dog, the ignorance & hatred of some people is upsetting, especially on a dog lovers forum.

Yes totally agree, until people accept that all dogs are not created equal and the genetics of a dog cannot be modified in the raising, things will sadly never move forward in a positive direction. I am a very strong BSL advocate to mean "breeder specific legislation"

While genetics are an important factor, the impact of the environment and learning are

critical to the behaviour of a dog. The tendency of a dog to bite is dependent on at least five

interacting factors:

 heredity (genes, breed)

 early experience

 socialisation and training

 health (physical and psychological) and

 victim behaviour (Beaver 2001, Seksel 2002, Snyder 2005).

1. Early experience: Dogs that can't recover well from early experience is nerve factor "genetic"

2. Socialisation and training is beneficial for dogs with nerve and temperament issues for better behaviour "genetic"

3. Health can be misfortune, injury or "genetic"

The "genetics" of a dog plays the major part in the behavioral outcome IMHO

Its all the joggers fault thinking they were a bull breed or the paper to notice.

American Bulldogs were someone's concoction to compete with the GSD & Malinois in working roles.......the Johnston line or something to that effect, was supposedly this superdog with masssive aggression and fight drive however what was missing was trainability......the dog ideally was as thick as two short planks, had no clarity in the fight and was virtually uncontrollable in aggression.......bottom line, wasn't close to that of GSD or Malinois in a working role except for a couple of dogs in this line, the rest were rubbish.....suffice to say, professionals don't use American Bulldogs for good reason........but yeah......the were aggressive enough........poor jogger, what hope did he have

Edited June 1, 2013 by Santo66

[inez]

Dear dog, the ignorance & hatred of some people is upsetting, especially on a dog lovers forum.

Yes totally agree, until people accept that all dogs are not created equal and the genetics of a dog cannot be modified in the raising, things will sadly never move forward in a positive direction. I am a very strong BSL advocate to mean "breeder specific legislation"

much better response than mine. Endone really messes with your ability to concentrate.

[mita]

So now we're down to just 'genes'?

Edited June 1, 2013 by mita

[inez]

So now we're down to just 'genes'?

Your are kidding arent you?

No I suppose you arent..

Just keep yourself and your kids off the street if you dont want to be checking out the inside of an ambulance anytime soon or in the future

Edited June 1, 2013 by inez

[Cat]

1370065478[/url]' post='6216673']

And yes I am pushing Inez to make a point, to push him or her to concede BSL is the problem, not the solution. Because public opinion will shape political decisions. Inez, now and in her/his former incarnation as M-Sass

Sure that's not Santo

[mantis]

I'm done with this forum, I joined when there were actually people who cared about ALL dogs, now it's turned into an anti Bull Breeds forum.

Very similar to the RSPCA catch phrase, "all creatures great & small", total hypocrisy.

[mita]

So now we're down to just 'genes'?

Your are kidding arent you?

No I suppose you arent..

Why would I be kidding in asking a question?

[mantis]

Double post, goodbye.

Edited June 1, 2013 by mantis

[inez]

I'm done with this forum, I joined when there were actually people who cared about ALL dogs, now it's turned into an anti Bull Breeds forum.

Very similar to the RSPCA catch phrase, "all creatures great & small", total hypocrisy.

You really are a concern. Love and embrace only the good?

Ignore where there a problem and it will go away?

To where?

Edited June 1, 2013 by inez

[Salukifan]

I'm done with this forum, I joined when there were actually people who cared about ALL dogs, now it's turned into an anti Bull Breeds forum.

Very similar to the RSPCA catch phrase, "all creatures great & small", total hypocrisy.

Rubbish. Poll it if you don't believe me. Most people DO NOT support BSL.

[mita]

I'm done with this forum, I joined when there were actually people who cared about ALL dogs, now it's turned into an anti Bull Breeds forum.

Mantis, the evidence that's been presented in this thread.... as opposed to opinions.... is that the breed per se is not sufficient to predict degree of risk in a particular dog. Which is why both the American Veterinary Association & the Australian Veterinary Association do not support breed-specific legislation as a measure in preventing dog bites/attacks.

It's opinions with no scientific backing that's rolling thro' this thread. Even 'making up' phenomena.... 'nerve factor', 'nerve issues'.

And I wonder why very few seem to know about the excellent AVA paper which is based on evidence from studies.

Edited June 1, 2013 by mita

[inez]

So now we're down to just 'genes'?

Your are kidding arent you?

No I suppose you arent..

Why would I be kidding in asking a question?

wasnt it oversimplification that brought in BSL and naught else?

doesnt the AVA paper list a raft of issues just about all ignored in the quick fix mentality?

Edited June 1, 2013 by inez

[BlackJaq]

So now we're down to just 'genes'?

Your are kidding arent you?

No I suppose you arent..

Why would I be kidding in asking a question?

wasnt it oversimplification that brought in BSL and naught else?

doesnt the AVA paper list a raft of issues just about all ignored in the quick fix mentality?

I think maybe you need to come back and post when the Endone is out of your system as you have said, since your posts make no sense at all?

[Santo66]

I'm done with this forum, I joined when there were actually people who cared about ALL dogs, now it's turned into an anti Bull Breeds forum.

Very similar to the RSPCA catch phrase, "all creatures great & small", total hypocrisy.

There is nothing wrong with Bull breeds, what's wrong is the idiots who breed some of them for the wrong reasons. The Pitbull was a dog fighter not a protection dog, but some idiots along the way decided that they should be harmful to people so they bred duds that showed aggression in the wrong areas the way I see it evolve......so man made many Bull breeds into what they were never supposed to be, so what needs to be done IMHO is cull off these crap Bull breeds, get out the breed book and start breeding some proper ones who comply with the breed standards Pitbull's shouldn't be biting people, if they do......something isn't right in the bloodlines.......a friend of mine has 2 Pits both bullet proof with people and other dogs, but I have also seen some shockers too, maulings waiting to happen.

[mita]

So now we're down to just 'genes'?

Your are kidding arent you?

No I suppose you arent..

Why would I be kidding in asking a question?

wasnt it oversimplification that brought in BSL and naught else?

doesnt the AVA paper list a raft of issues just about all ignored in the quick fix mentality?

I think maybe you need to come back and post when the Endone is out of your system as you have said, since your posts make no sense at all?

I'm glad I'm not the only one that was having trouble with the meaning.

Inez, whatever you're taking the meds for, I hope all goes well for you. Take care.

[mita]

I'm done with this forum, I joined when there were actually people who cared about ALL dogs, now it's turned into an anti Bull Breeds forum.

There is nothing wrong with Bull breeds, what's wrong is the idiots who breed some of them for the wrong reasons. The Pitbull was a dog fighter not a protection dog, but some idiots along the way decided that they should be harmful to people so they bred duds that showed aggression in the wrong areas the way I see it evolve......so man made many Bull breeds into what they were never supposed to be, so what needs to be done IMHO is cull off these crap Bull breeds, get out the breed book and start breeding some proper ones who comply with the breed standards Pitbull's shouldn't be biting people, if they do......something isn't right in the bloodlines.......a friend of mine has 2 Pits both bullet proof with people and other dogs, but I have also seen some shockers too, maulings waiting to happen.

I'm going to regret this.... I can see a one notion mind at work.

Yes, genes are important.... but they are not alone in the mix which determines if an individual dog has a high risk or a low risk of aggression. What is required is attention to all the factors.

[sandgrubber]

I'm done with this forum, I joined when there were actually people who cared about ALL dogs, now it's turned into an anti Bull Breeds forum.

There is nothing wrong with Bull breeds, what's wrong is the idiots who breed some of them for the wrong reasons. The Pitbull was a dog fighter not a protection dog, but some idiots along the way decided that they should be harmful to people so they bred duds that showed aggression in the wrong areas the way I see it evolve......so man made many Bull breeds into what they were never supposed to be, so what needs to be done IMHO is cull off these crap Bull breeds, get out the breed book and start breeding some proper ones who comply with the breed standards Pitbull's shouldn't be biting people, if they do......something isn't right in the bloodlines.......a friend of mine has 2 Pits both bullet proof with people and other dogs, but I have also seen some shockers too, maulings waiting to happen.

I'm going to regret this.... I can see a one notion mind at work.

Yes, genes are important.... but they are not alone in the mix which determines if an individual dog has a high risk or a low risk of aggression. What is required is attention to all the factors.

MOREOVER breed does not precisely or fully predict the genes that affect behaviour. Yes, all breeds have tendencies, but all breeds also have exceptions to the norm, and many breeds have different norms depending on whether the lines are working or pet or show. You can find mean Labradors; and laid back JRT's. In many breeds there are crappy breeders who have allowed temperament to go to hell, eg, by breeding unstable or highly reactive dogs. Dogs from working lines, including guarding, herding, vermin control, and hunting (to name a few), may not be suited to the average suburban family, and at least some of the offspring are likely to become problematic without adequate investment in containment, training, and stimulation/exercise. Lines that have been bred more for pet/show purposes may be easier to keep and less prone to going nutso (often translates to' mean' if the dog's 'job' would require high drive and use of teeth) when they no longer have a 'job'.

The fact that every breed includes individuals who exhibit different behaviours makes it important that breeders explicitly breed for temperament, and make it clear to puppy buyers what temperament they have bred for, and what sort of management their puppy is likely to require. It pisses me off that so many breeders simply say "wonderful temperament". Wonderful temperament for what? We need to describe temperament, not in terms of good and bad, but in descriptive terms, such as drive, biddability, etc.

End of lecture. It sure is easy to get worked up about this topic.

[Lee-Ann]

Mean?

They're dogs. Canis lupus familiaris, a subspecies of the wolf, Canis lupus. Canidae evolved physically and psychologically to rely on the hunt for survival, they're perfect in every way for the environmental niche they fill. If prey is large, the canid's social bonds allow them to work cooperatively to feed themselves.

Humans have used dogs for hunting, bred them for hunting throughout recorded history. We bred them for their pack instinct, which enabled them to work with us cooperatively to hunt, and we bred them for their hunting instinct and drive. To hunt is one of this species most primal instincts. Watch your dog chasing birds, chasing balls. What instinct is evoked?

If socialised with humans, dogs see humans as something akin to pack mates. If socialised poorly, failing to recognise humans as their team mates and providers, humans may well be seen as prey. Fast movement will trigger prey instinct. In a normal dog, once the picture of movement is identified as human jogger, the prey drive switches off. In these dogs, inadequate socialisation caused them to identify the human as a potential target. Being, big, powerful dogs, they knew they could take this target down. And they did.

Mean? Depends on your definition of mean I guess. More precise to say it's a very primal canine instinct (especially in a pack like that) coupled with a lack of socialisation.

Well said!!

[sas]

Why are you people still debating whether temperament is genetic or not? It is 100%, there is no if's or buts about it. If you breed unstable temperaments you have a higher risk to create unstable temperaments.

Mother Nature gives us a foundation temperament to work with and then we get an opportunity to shape the remainder....we don't get the opportunity to shape out what was wrong to start with.

There's no point in arguing with each other because neither party is prepared to accept the others point of view so you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Edited June 1, 2013 by sas