Can Some Dogs Just Be Mean?

[whitka]

So me and the housemate were watching on the news the other day about the two dogs attacking a jogger and then we started talking whether it was the owner's fault. He reckons its unfair to blame the owner because sometimes dogs can be just mean. He then was telling me about his friend who has two cattle dogs and even though the guy has never done anything to the dogs, the dogs have tried to bite him before. I never got the chance to say if it wasnt the owners fault then why were the dogs lose in the first place but by then the argument was getting a bit heated so I left it :laugh:

Edited May 29, 2013 by whitka

[*kirty*]

There were three dogs, and they were American Bulldogs.

Yes I'm sure there are some dogs that are just bad natured due to their genetics, but I think the majority have bad temperaments due to the way they are raised and managed.

[kelpiecuddles]

I think they can, responsible breeders talk all the time about ensuring breeding animals have good temperament and not breeding animals with poor temperament. if they can breed for good temperament the reverse must also be true.

[Zug Zug]

Yes some dogs are prone to aggression, and while in most cases it can be managed if caught early, I think it is naive to suggest that all aggressive dogs are that way as a result of ill treatment by humans.

[mantis]

There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.

[*kirty*]

I don't believe that for a second.

[Maddy]

Dogs don't have any morals so I think "mean" is probably a bad way of wording it. Are some dogs genetically predisposed to aggression or more likely to express aggression due to poor socialisation? Probably.

[kelpiecuddles]

Those that don't believe that there can be some dogs predisposed to aggression do you also believe that breeders can't breed for good temperament, that it's all nurture? Just curious regarding the thought process :)

[hankdog]

Some dogs were originally bred to fight and others to flush game etc. I suppose what we would see as mean would be temperaments that suited their original purpose. High prey drive and high aggression coupled with owners who don't manage or channel all that in the right direction and you get a problem.

[whitka]

Some dogs were originally bred to fight and others to flush game etc. I suppose what we would see as mean would be temperaments that suited their original purpose. High prey drive and high aggression coupled with owners who don't manage or channel all that in the right direction and you get a problem.

That's what I was trying to say but for whatever reason he wasn't going to listen.

[dancinbcs]

If you had ever seen 5 week old puppies that were just downright nasty you would believe that dogs can be born like that. The dog's basic nature and temperament is set at birth, just as it is with humans. Human psychopaths are born that way too and usually have a long history through childhood of acts of cruelty, despite how good or bad their parents are. How dogs behave in given circumstances is up to the owner, environment and training. If the owner knows they have a dog that is dangerous it is up to them to manage the dog or have it pts.

The statement that no dogs are bad is just downright stupid.

[Guest Clover]

I think some dogs can be born aggressive, yes it is highly possible it is genetic and has nothing to do with how they are raised.

One of might is quite dog aggressive and reactive, he has been like that from a very small puppy (puppy pre school was not fun). He has never been mis treated, both his parents were reasonably nice dogs as well (no idea about grand parent g grand parents etc though) and his littler sister is lovely.

[kelpiecuddles]

I imagine it would come down the 'domestication genes' that researchers were playing around with in foxes. It was quite an interesting study that showed genetic changes in the foxes when they were selectively bred over many generations to be more docile. I can't remember much more than that sorry, it was a doco I watched maybe 8 or 9 years ago and the rest of the details are scetchy, I have a feeling they were in russia though.

[sandgrubber]

1369835897[/url]' post='6214172']

I imagine it would come down the 'domestication genes' that researchers were playing around with in foxes. It was quite an interesting study that showed genetic changes in the foxes when they were selectively bred over many generations to be more docile. I can't remember much more than that sorry, it was a doco I watched maybe 8 or 9 years ago and the rest of the details are scetchy, I have a feeling they were in russia though.

It was Dimitri Balyaev who started the experiments. Work began around 1960 and continues to this day. You can also buy a domesticated fox (very expensive, neutered). Google Russian fox domestication and you'll get hundreds of interesting articles. In selecting for friendliness to humans, they found degrees of domestication. They eventually had to add a super domesticated category above their original top category to accommodate foxes whose affectionate responses were off the original chart. So, yes, if dogs and foxes are alike in range of temperament, dogs can potentially be bred to manifest a wide range between mean/wild and spooky/friendly. I think most dog people have seen the extent of this range. It's not all genetics, but it can take a lot of management and training to overcome genetics.

[Wobbly]

Mean?

They're dogs. Canis lupus familiaris, a subspecies of the wolf, Canis lupus. Canidae evolved physically and psychologically to rely on the hunt for survival, they're perfect in every way for the environmental niche they fill. If prey is large, the canid's social bonds allow them to work cooperatively to feed themselves.

Humans have used dogs for hunting, bred them for hunting throughout recorded history. We bred them for their pack instinct, which enabled them to work with us cooperatively to hunt, and we bred them for their hunting instinct and drive. To hunt is one of this species most primal instincts. Watch your dog chasing birds, chasing balls. What instinct is evoked?

If socialised with humans, dogs see humans as something akin to pack mates. If socialised poorly, failing to recognise humans as their team mates and providers, humans may well be seen as prey. Fast movement will trigger prey instinct. In a normal dog, once the picture of movement is identified as human jogger, the prey drive switches off. In these dogs, inadequate socialisation caused them to identify the human as a potential target. Being, big, powerful dogs, they knew they could take this target down. And they did.

Mean? Depends on your definition of mean I guess. More precise to say it's a very primal canine instinct (especially in a pack like that) coupled with a lack of socialisation.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Wobbly

[Blackdogs]

Mean?

They're dogs. Canis lupus familiaris, a subspecies of the wolf, Canis lupus. Canidae evolved physically and psychologically to rely on the hunt for survival, they're perfect in every way for the environmental niche they fill. If prey is large, the canid's social bonds allow them to work cooperatively to feed themselves.

Humans have used dogs for hunting, bred them for hunting throughout recorded history. We bred them for their pack instinct, which enabled them to work with us cooperatively to hunt, and we bred them for their hunting instinct and drive. To hunt is one of this species most primal instincts. Watch your dog chasing birds, chasing balls. What instinct is evoked?

If socialised with humans, dogs see humans as something akin to pack mates. If socialised poorly, failing to recognise humans as their team mates and providers, humans may well be seen as prey. Fast movement will trigger prey instinct. In a normal dog, once the picture of movement is identified as human jogger, the prey drive switches off. In these dogs, inadequate socialisation caused them to identify the human as a potential target. Being, big, powerful dogs, they knew they could take this target down. And they did.

Mean? Depends on your definition of mean I guess. More precise to say it's a very primal canine instinct (especially in a pack like that) coupled with a lack of socialisation.

Well said.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I would add to that though that some dogs can be more fearful, prey driven or dominant than others and they need to be managed accordingly.

Very occasionally a dog pop up that is beyond management or is suitable only for certain environments.

I recently assisted in the euthanasia of a dog whose prey drive was so strong it would attack anything that moved, including people, other animals and moving objects. It could jump 12 foot fences to get to whatever it perceived to be prey and lived primarily for the catch. This dog was just too dangerous to be managed.

[Kirislin]

I think some dog breeds are defintely prone to aggression. A few years ago a group of American Bulldog owners used to have get togethers at our local park. It was absolutely terrifying to go there on those days, but we never knew before hand when they'd be on. Every dog used to be tied up away from every other dog, because if they got within reach of them, they'd attack. I was always frightened they'd get loose because they'd be lunging and growling at each other from a distance. I never took my dogs anywhere near them once I realised how aggressive they were.

[Blackdogs]

I think some dog breeds are defintely prone to aggression. A few years ago a group of American Bulldog owners used to have get togethers at our local park. It was absolutely terrifying to go there on those days, but we never knew before hand when they'd be on. Every dog used to be tied up away from every other dog, because if they got within reach of them, they'd attack. I was always frightened they'd get loose because they'd be lunging and growling at each other from a distance. I never took my dogs anywhere near them once I realised how aggressive they were.

I think that American Bulldogs certainly have a propensity for DA. I have met some highly socialised ABs that are good with other dogs, but I think they require very careful management.

Good to see other DOL members awake at this crazy hour. :D

[DakotaJ]

Different breeds were bred for different purposes.

I am making general comments here so keep that in mind. for example, Border Collies and Kelpies were bred as herding animals and they will try to "herd" everything. Golden retrievers were bred to retrieve, and they will retrieve anything, and are notoriously "mouthy", but they rarely bite down. Cavaliers were bred as lap dogs, and that's where they want to be, on your lap. When you choose a purebred dog it is because you like a dog with that type of personality. All dogs, and people, are affected by their environment, they can be trained and mistreated and this will effect their actions.

However Bull Terriers are known to be bred as fighting dogs, and when they bite they lock on. People who buy them know that, it is not a secret. Some owners choose them for that reason. I have seen many BT owners at obedience classes and their dogs are wonderful, unfortunately they are not all owned by responsible owners. In the case of this attack on that poor man the breeding and the lack of responsibility on the part of the owner became a perfect storm with terrible consequences.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.

If by that you mean "bad" is a moral judgement and bad owners are the ones that don't take responsibility for managing or putting down a dog with serious unrecoverable aggression then I agree with you.

If by that you mean that all dogs are basically good and are turned bad by their owners, I'd suggest your experience isn't broad enough. Yes owners can have a big influence and many dogs can be made or marred by circumstance. However, sometimes all the care in the world doesn't change the fact that a dog is driven to try to kill other dogs or people, and will keep trying for the rest of its life. It's pretty offensive to suggest that owners of those dogs are "bad" - particularly if the cause of the aggression is something like brain lesions, genetics, low thyroid, epilepsy of the "sudden rage" kind etc.