Question About Instructing

[icedmice]

I was instructing a class with a standard poodle who is reluctant to drop. I can see it's stressing the handler out which is in turn stressing the dog out, I told her to give the command but not to make too much of a fuss if it didn't. The dog also sits a bit awkward, like it's about to fall backwards.

Of course forcing the dog to drop leads to the handler giving multiple commands and her hand signals become less clear with every attempt. I know from previous lessons that luring with food or manually putting it in place hasn't worked that well. I suggested for homework that when the dog offers the behavior at home to reward it, like giving it a drop command just before it lays down to go to bed and rewarding that. Then try it in the home, somewhere where it feels comfortable.

Sometimes it can become a matter of too many cooks spoil the broth and getting loads of input from all different instructors actually does the opposite of helping.

So I'm wondering weather I gave the right advice because some instructors believe you should persevere. You probably could, but I worry then that the dog will associate the command with something negative and it isn't really fair to the rest of the class either because in the time we wait for one dog to drop, others have moved out of position when it wasn't a stay exercise.

I'm new to instructing, would appreciate some advice.

Also if you know any videos and books (I've watched a lot of kikopup and tab289).

[persephone]

Ok... have you spoken with the owner and /or observed the dog when it is relaxed/at home ?

Does it sit/lie down comfortably ? Does it swing to one side? Does it always lie on one side ?

perhaps the dog is unwilling because of soreness somewhere?

Just a thought .

[sheena]

The verbal or physical cue being given to drop may have become poisened. ie. the dog is associating something unpleasant with the word "drop" or the hand signals being given. Maybe even the unpleasantness of being pushed into position when the cue is given. I would be shaping the dog by using a clicker, making sure the dog understands the value of click marks the behaviour = reward. Shape or lure the behaviour first then when it is 99% proofed, add a new cue word to it. Shaping is a far better method over luring as sometimes the lure itself can become poisened if it is being used to get the dog to do something it fears. :)

[Kavik]

Maybe a vet check is in order? Hips? or soreness somewhere?

If the dog is not sore. I wouldn't be giving the cue if the dog is unlikely to do it and the owner can't get the dog to do it - it will poison the cue. If the dog won't drop in class and the owner cannot get the dog to drop in class, then maybe they should work on it at home and not do the exercise in class yet.

So they've tried luring (under something? the right direction into the dog and back?) and placing it in position, they could try shaping it. I've just taught my puppy to drop via shaping. The initial stage was a bit frustrating (as it can be with shaping) but once he figured out what I wanted it progressed quickly.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Going by what you say with the awkward sits I would want to be 100% sure there is not a spinal issue.

After the all clear, perhaps you could show her how to charge up a clicker - if she has decent enough timing, and steer her towards some youtube vids on how to lure a drop and the precise moment to mark it with a click, then reward. She can do this at home sitting on the carpet with the dog in front of her.

Sometimes if the dog didn't team the cue with the position correctly in the teaching phase (this is all about muscle memory and less about the hand signal) then it's unclear, and pushing-on only confuses the dog and frustrates the owner.

She could rename it too - floor or down or lie etc etc.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Staff'n'Toller

[Poppy's mum]

I use luring under leg where dog doesn't get it - and many don't seem to in a class situation. Got it from the "Never say never" greyhound site. You can do it sitting on a chair. Demo video:

http://neversaynevergreyhounds.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Downs

(Obviously rule out physical issues - my grey sits by falling back onto her haunches, incidentally)

[Tassie]

Agree with what else has been said, but also - assuming no physical issues, I would be teaching a fold-back drop - starts with a bow from a stand. You can lure down between the dog's front legs - allowing dog to lick the food, but only releasing the treat to be eaten when you get at least an approximation - elbow bend is a start. Then wait the dog out. - I get people to make sure the dog is in a corner or with something behind, so there's a limit to how far they can back up. Seems to work better with stiffer legged breeds.

Emily Larlham (kikopup on Youtube) has a slightly different way of luring the foldback - she works drop to stand to drop, with the lure/signal moving at a 45 degree angle up away from the dog to get stand and back down to the dog for drop. I think it's in the one about teaching the stay.

Oh and one last thing - my classes are taught not to put a verbal cue on till they have a behaviour - I'd agree with sheena the 'drop' cue has probably been poisoned.

[Canine Coach]

I was instructing a class with a standard poodle who is reluctant to drop. I can see it's stressing the handler out which is in turn stressing the dog out, I told her to give the command but not to make too much of a fuss if it didn't. The dog also sits a bit awkward, like it's about to fall backwards.

Of course forcing the dog to drop leads to the handler giving multiple commands and her hand signals become less clear with every attempt. I know from previous lessons that luring with food or manually putting it in place hasn't worked that well. I suggested for homework that when the dog offers the behavior at home to reward it, like giving it a drop command just before it lays down to go to bed and rewarding that. Then try it in the home, somewhere where it feels comfortable.

Sometimes it can become a matter of too many cooks spoil the broth and getting loads of input from all different instructors actually does the opposite of helping.

So I'm wondering weather I gave the right advice because some instructors believe you should persevere. You probably could, but I worry then that the dog will associate the command with something negative and it isn't really fair to the rest of the class either because in the time we wait for one dog to drop, others have moved out of position when it wasn't a stay exercise.

I'm new to instructing, would appreciate some advice.

Also if you know any videos and books (I've watched a lot of kikopup and tab289).

I demonstrate to students how to teach the drop from a stand using the LURING METHOD

Have a pocketful of very high value treats

Sit on floor on side of a low table after positioning dog at narrow end

Reach arm with food in hand under table & using food lure dog under table

The dog has to voluntarily drop to follow the food

AFTER he drops say DROP & immediately feed IN POSITION & release

IF dog does not go all the way down the 1st time reward anyway

Next time wait till dog goes all the way down

One can also sit on the floor & use a slightly raised KNEE & lure dog

under one's knee

Say DROP AFTER he is in position & feed while he is IN POSITION

[Zug Zug]

Just a note that a standard poodle's long legs can make the sit look very vertical compared with other breeds, especially when they are young as their legs can grow quickly.

They shouldn't tip back, but a bit of tension could lead to this.

Which isn't to say don't check with the vet. Just that this might be normal at this stage of a young dog's development.

[icedmice]

That's a possibility ZugZug.

I know it was mentioned to her to have her dog vet checked because I have observed the dog drop under a previous instructor who said just that, it did roll to one side a bit which had me thinking too. I don't know if she ever did.

Lately the training grounds have been dark, cold and wet too so my staffy doesn't like to stay in a drop for long. Will have to dust off her winter jackets :p . I know that's why a lot of dogs are breaking their stays and putting them out of sorts lately.

I'll suggest a few of the methods mentioned like luring under something or under the leg. Worth a shot.

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't giving the wrong/bad advice, sometimes I think a few people expect too much too fast of handlers and their dogs. I worry it discourages people from training.

[JulesP]

I always emphasized that the class time was to show the handlers what to do but that the real training went on at home.

[sheena]

I always emphasized that the class time was to show the handlers what to do but that the real training went on at home.

Thats a good point Jules, most people want you to perform miricles with their dogs with just one training session a week. For my class I print up training notes on the lesson of whatever I am trying to teach them, hoping that they will go home & read the notes & practice. I find this works quite well with most.

[pipsqueak]

Left of field suggestion since you mentioned cold... is it possible for the handler to bring a towel or mat and use it for the drop. I know it would only be a short term solution, but might help and stop the handler from stressing.

[icedmice]

I always emphasized that the class time was to show the handlers what to do but that the real training went on at home.

Thats a good point Jules, most people want you to perform miricles with their dogs with just one training session a week. For my class I print up training notes on the lesson of whatever I am trying to teach them, hoping that they will go home & read the notes & practice. I find this works quite well with most.

I strongly agree, all my best training happened at home. There's just too much going on at training that distracts you and the dog.

We have so many dropping out, but I also notice some instructors loosing patience with handlers.

I prefer to point out when a handler did something really well over when they made a mistake. Most people know when they make a mistake, I prefer to ask, if they'd like to attempt it again, like the stand for exam. Or I make a general statement to the whole class, don't forget XYZ.

I have two left feet and when I started training, plus I'm a naturally anxious/sensitive person. I remember being in tears more than once by insensitive comments like "Oh look, she's a bad example". I felt like handing over the lead and saying, well if you think you can do a better job, be my guest.

I have also heard insensitive comments made to other handlers and they haven't returned.

It's all beside the point,

I don't think cold is a huge issue to this dog, but it could be one of several factors.

I think I'm more insecure being a new instructor when others say, you should have done this or that. I'm not instructing trial level classes, only intermediate ones.

[Tassie]

Sounds like you're on the right track.

I always look for things that I can praise the handlers for - either a quick private bit of praise, or forthe benefit of the whole class, if they're OK with that. And I tell my classes that dog school is the worst possible place to be teaching new stuff, because of the very high distractions, so they're really there to learn the mechanics for themselves.

BTW - not sure if you know or not, but Canine Coach has the most beautiful working standard poodles - so she's one who really knows how they work - and is about positives for dog and handlers :D

[alpha bet]

Just a note that a standard poodle's long legs can make the sit look very vertical compared with other breeds, especially when they are young as their legs can grow quickly.

They shouldn't tip back, but a bit of tension could lead to this.

Which isn't to say don't check with the vet. Just that this might be normal at this stage of a young dog's development.

This is something often instructors forget. The physical development of different breeds can make some movements more difficult. Standard Poodles have a preference to standing rather than sitting, it is just how most seem more comfortable. When a sit is required they will generally be slower than many others - this is perfectly acceptable - if you try to rush this style of dog you will find that tension comes into play and makes this harder than say some breeds like a golden retriever.

The same applies to drop. The Standard is quite deep chested and doesn't fold as easily in the legs. Again don't rush but allow the handler and dog to take their time and the dog will build their muscles and co-ordination which in times makes it easier. Other breeds that need to develop at a slower pace (especially for the drop) - Doberman, Great Dane, Weimerana - In fact you could say any of the deep chested breeds.

As an instructor, if you find some handlers are having difficulty with the drop during the class work then just ask them to get the dog to sit (or even stand), so that it doesn't make them feel as if they are holding the class up. Advice them that they can practice building the drop at home as a quiet relaxed exercise and let them decide when they feel confident to add this to their class work.

Your first priority as an instructor should be to build the confidence of the team and one thing to be careful about is making someone feel they are the dunce in the class, so remember not all dogs are going to do all things well, so make light of any problems and build the skills they find easier first.

[Canine Coach]

Just a comment based on my own personal experience titling 7 Standard Poodles to U.D./Obedience CH. in 3 countries ..... I have never ever found any preference for one position over another, when training Standard Poodles

My whole litters of baby puppies,are luring easily into sit,stand & drop,by 6 weeks of age

ALL my own dogs have been trained with luring, shaping, & targeting.

I have also assisted others in training deep narrow chested breeds & have no experiences of difficulty of dogs changing positions or preferring a particular position

The only preferences shown,are when a particular position gets rewarded more than the others, consisitently

i.e. most pet owners reward SIT more than other positions & most CONFORMATION show people reward STAND position more than other position

[Canine Coach]

P.S. I totally agree with all of you that commented about finding something to praise the handlers for

I find it VERY important to frequently catch every handler doing SOMETHING/ANYTHING "RIGHT" & mark handler behaviour with quiet &/or public praise People need positive reinforcement too & lots of it often. If they are not getting the down/drop right in class, praise the way they hold the food or praise their voice tone, or the great food rewards or toys they chose to bring to class

I also agree with the helpful comments about training with distractions. OMG, it is so much more difficult with someone watching & other dogs & other people using food nearby!

Perhaps, one could get permission, to give handouts at each class, with those great youtube clips with the Greyhound & the others (kikopup) some of you referred to You could ask people to watch them before they then practice, in a very quiet place at home, for 5 minutes a day

[Zug Zug]

CC I didn't mean to suggest their legs mean they can't sit. I was just responding to this comment in the original post:

The dog also sits a bit awkward, like it's about to fall backwards.

There have been times when Pasha has looked like this while sitting, and there's nothing wrong with him physically. It was just his gangly adolescent stage combined with long legs. A lot of people have commented to me that he looks very 'tall' when sitting. But that's just his shape.

I wasn't meaning to suggest that they can't drop or sit nicely. Certainly they can - although I take the point of AlphaBet too that it might not be as lightning fast as some smaller breeds.