New Rescue Dog!

[corie]

We've just adopted a two year old cattle dog. It's almost been two weeks, and he's settled really well. He's learning very quickly to not jump up at people, learning to stop pulling on the leash, is responsive to training, will release bones back to me, the cats will walk right up to him and he won't fight them for their raw food at all (although they are always fed under supervision), he'll wait for my okay before eating dinner (although will drool floods and floods while waiting). He's the smoochiest boy, will do almost anything in order to get his pats - just a typical velcro cattle dog!

He already had been adopted once before us, and had two incidences of dog aggression - the first time, his new owner had let him off the leash the first day she got him and he got into a fight with a large dog. The second time, two large off leash dogs came up and attacked him, but no mention of physical injury in either case. Previous owner also said that he wasn't very affectionate ( ). His foster told me that she could see the changes in him when he came back to her, but he responds very well to his 'no' noise, and he adapted again nicely to living with her four other dogs. His foster told us that he was okay with small dogs, just the large ones he would react to.

So we know to be careful when approaching new dogs. He'll perk his ears when we walk past fenced dogs and try to sniff them out, but will walk on with a tug on the leash. We've walked past an elderly neighbour with her 18 year old SWF and he had been excited, but sat quickly and got some pats.

Three incidences of note - an off lead bully came up to us while on a walk, a teenager little taller than him. They had a sniff (both ends!), then there was a little growling but the owner easily called his bully away. Another day, an off lead dog a little smaller than him (can't remember what it looked like, possibly boston terrier cross) walked by us, and without any interruption on my part they went through the preliminary sniffing then just stood next to each other looking around. I also had a friend over the other day with a nine month old female maltese. I had him on lead and walked past them a couple of times, then brought them closer and allowed sniffs after he relaxed (and the maltese stopped barking). We took them both for a walk, and then came back to my backyard. The maltese was very submissive to him, but she could chase after his ball, and if she got to it first he wouldn't mind. Then there was one time where the ball had just been lying there for a while, and he had been expecting me to pick it up, and when the maltese went for it he jumped on top of her and she did that yelp/whimper thing and scampered off. He wasn't given a chance to chase her, and later on she came back and started sniffing him again.

I've read that cattle dogs are not the most tolerant of other dogs, and if he prefers his people to other dogs that's completely fine. But when does standoffishness turn into aggression? I don't plan to let him off leash until he can recall from other dogs, much less need to worry about him being aggressive towards them. Our pathetic grass isn't holding up very well to our fetch sessions, so I'm gonna get him a long leash and a harness at some point to he can run a bit more at the reserve opposite our house. But I would like off lead to be a goal we'll reach in the future!

We're due to start going to obedience classes in late June, early July. Do I need to be seeing a behaviouralist as well? Anything I can/should be doing at home/on his walks in the meantime?

[megan_]

I'm not an expert, but I think you are tempting fate. If the dog has attacked twice, you need to treat your dog like a DA dog and manage it as such. This means no off leash parks. Ever. Even with a recall, your dog might come back but the other one might think this is a big game and before you know it there is a fight. I have a dog at home who, by your description, is much less DA than your cattle dog and I would never let a strange dog into her territory.

This is where a behaviourist can really help. The key is to get someone who is actually qualified because there are a lot of very dangerous charlatans out there (eg alpha rolls, just let him meet other dogs etc).

Given you're in Victoria I'd recommend Cosmolo or Erny on this forum. They are both very reasonably priced for the services that they offer.

Also feel free to pop into the reactive dog thread. There are many of us who have dogs with issues and they live happy, full lives - they just don't run around with a pack of dogs at the local dog park.

[Guest Clover]

I will second everything that megan said, behaviourist, no off lead parks, and certainly would not be putting that little Maltese back into that position that could have ended very badly .

Where about in Victoria are you?

[BC Crazy]

Third vote here.... Totally agree with all advice given thus far. I am no expert either.

Take NO chances with him & don't allow him off lead. A DA dog can be extemely unpredictable to an inexperienced eye.

Get professional help. Good luck.

Edited May 27, 2013 by BC Crazy

[corie]

well.. Majority rules I guess. Looks like it's time to put down hardier grass in the backyard. Good thing we take our walks in the early morning hours. I would like to clarify thhough that with his previous owner, he didn't start either of the fights - sorry if that wasn't clear.

I've seen Cosmolo and Erny around on the forums, shall contact them when not on phone for more advice/who might be located near me. Shall definitely be careful as to who I actually get to look at him, I've done my research, and since 'just letting the dogs meet' is basically how his problem started it'll be the last thing I'll be wanting to hear. I live in Melbourne's south eastern suburbs.

[megan_]

Cosmolo runs a really good workshop on dog to dog interaction too.

I walk my dogs at about 6am every morning as there are less off leash dogs then. Sucks in winter but at 10am the parks (on lead ones) are infested with off leash dogs!

[corie]

Question though - dogs play rough, and he was let to run with other cattle dogs and kelpies before he came to us. Is it wrong to just put down his incidence with the maltese as rough play? As I said, I hadn't been throwing the ball for him, who can tell if he wasn't just redirecting his attention?

We'll bee seeing a behaviouralist either way, so please don't just say 'no' if you think the possibility is there.

[corie]

Cosmolo runs a really good workshop on dog to dog interaction too.

I walk my dogs at about 6am every morning as there are less off leash dogs then. Sucks in winter but at 10am the parks (on lead ones) are infested with off leash dogs!

There was still frost on my windows when I got up this morning and I groaned :laugh:

We've got several parks/ovals and walking trails to choose from though, so at least the dog population we actually come across is quite scattered.

Edited May 28, 2013 by corie

[megan_]

It is hard to say without actually seeing the dogs interact. Dog body language is very subtle and a fight usually starts with a few very subtle things.

Some dogs who are normally great with dogs will fight to the death over a ball because they are resource guarders. I throw a ball to my boy at the local park when it is deserted. If someone joins, I stop (he isn't a resource guarder but I don't know if the dog joining is).

Even though the previous fights weren't apparently started by him (I say apparently because it is hard for humans to determine what happened prior to the fight) I'd be cautious because dogs learn "when I see dogs, I get attacked) so they can learn to "get in first" to save themselves - even if the other dog means no harm.

[corie]

Fair enough.

Will update with what ends up happening :)

[hankdog]

Just to add my boy took quite a while to settle in. He never barked at home for about 2 months, his behavior will probably be in flux right now. I don't know how that influences when you see a behaviorist but you may get more problems down the line as he gets territorial or less as he relaxes. Good luck.

[Wobbly]

Like everyone says, don't let him off lead. Always remember, if your dog gets hold of a smaller dog and does hurt it, your dog will be put down, not to mention the heartache the owner of the smaller dogs will go through, and the misery the little dog will go through if it has bad injuries. Could have happened with that Maltese. Bad all round.

In regards to having a good recall on a dog with DA form: THE main thing I worked on with my dog is recall, but I would never test it off leash around other dogs. Not worth the risk. I don't want to lose my dog to a council order, and I don't want to see another owner lose their dog to injury. If he's really active and you must have him off leash, get onto google maps, find your nearest state forest or council land and go check it out (on leash initially for investigation) to see if there's an area that's remote enough you won't see any other dogs. I have a few areas like that near me, the advantages of living in a less developed area. State forest, crown land and uninhabited Aboriginal land are all good contenders, generally very big tracts of land, where dogs and walkers are allowed. I do normally have to walk a fair distance into the bush on leash to ensure I have the area to myself for any off leash time. If you live in a city you may need to drive quite a long way to find a suitable area.

Just remember the more he rehearses a behaviour, the more comfortable he gets with that behaviour and the more he will perform it. So if you keep him on leash and make sure all his interactions with other dogs are controlled and he displays only calm & appropriate greeting behaviour, he rehearses that calm behaviour, it will become a conditioned response. By the same token if you let him rehearse aggressive behaviour, it will become more ingrained. No matter how good he may get on leash though, when overly aroused, dogs will normally revert to instinctual behaviour. So even after practicing many years of calmly greeting other dogs on leash, if he gets over excited or stressed, since he's indicated a few times that his natural response leans toward aggression, you can't ever trust him.

No off leash around other dogs, ever. If he gets his jaws around the throat of a little dog, it's very unlikely you could call him off regardless of how good his recall is in other circumstances. Recall is an operatively conditioned behaviour and when the dog is under extreme stress, it can and will break down and the dog will be left with only pure instinct to guide his decisions, and he's given you every indication that his instinctive behaviour tends toward aggression.

I would also recommend a behaviourist. Developing an understanding of the whys and wherefores of aggression is an amazing help, and a behaviourist can assess your dog's individual temperament and give you information relevant to managing your particular dog. Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt is also amazing, but in all honesty the unleashed bit in the title is a bit misleading, you probably won't ever be able to have him unleashed around other dogs no matter how much work you do.

It's a pain at first, because all of us who have dogs who are untrustworthy around other dogs had probably originally envisaged lovely weekends at the dog beach, all off leash playing. It is difficult to abandon those fantasies, but you do have to let them go unfortunately. Just breathe out and accept it, it can't happen, it's not worth the risk. Once you get used to the management your dog requires though, you will find plenty of equally enjoyable activities that you can indulge in safely with your dog. For years I had only walked my dog in the bush, but just recently I discovered I love walking (on leash ofc) around my suburb too, I haven't lived here long so I am still exploring all the back streets, and learning my way around the alleys and tracks, very enjoyable walks I find.

[corie]

Just to add my boy took quite a while to settle in. He never barked at home for about 2 months, his behavior will probably be in flux right now. I don't know how that influences when you see a behaviorist but you may get more problems down the line as he gets territorial or less as he relaxes. Good luck.

Hi hankdog, did you mean that no barking in your dog had been a sign that he wasn't settled?

Like everyone says, don't let him off lead. Always remember, if your dog gets hold of a smaller dog and does hurt it, your dog will be put down, not to mention the heartache the owner of the smaller dogs will go through, and the misery the little dog will go through if it has bad injuries. Could have happened with that Maltese. Bad all round.

In regards to having a good recall on a dog with DA form: THE main thing I worked on with my dog is recall, but I would never test it off leash around other dogs. Not worth the risk. I don't want to lose my dog to a council order, and I don't want to see another owner lose their dog to injury. If he's really active and you must have him off leash, get onto google maps, find your nearest state forest or council land and go check it out (on leash initially for investigation) to see if there's an area that's remote enough you won't see any other dogs. I have a few areas like that near me, the advantages of living in a less developed area. State forest, crown land and uninhabited Aboriginal land are all good contenders, generally very big tracts of land, where dogs and walkers are allowed. I do normally have to walk a fair distance into the bush on leash to ensure I have the area to myself for any off leash time. If you live in a city you may need to drive quite a long way to find a suitable area.

Just remember the more he rehearses a behaviour, the more comfortable he gets with that behaviour and the more he will perform it. So if you keep him on leash and make sure all his interactions with other dogs are controlled and he displays only calm & appropriate greeting behaviour, he rehearses that calm behaviour, it will become a conditioned response. By the same token if you let him rehearse aggressive behaviour, it will become more ingrained. No matter how good he may get on leash though, when overly aroused, dogs will normally revert to instinctual behaviour. So even after practicing many years of calmly greeting other dogs on leash, if he gets over excited or stressed, since he's indicated a few times that his natural response leans toward aggression, you can't ever trust him.

No off leash around other dogs, ever. If he gets his jaws around the throat of a little dog, it's very unlikely you could call him off regardless of how good his recall is in other circumstances. Recall is an operatively conditioned behaviour and when the dog is under extreme stress, it can and will break down and the dog will be left with only pure instinct to guide his decisions, and he's given you every indication that his instinctive behaviour tends toward aggression.

I would also recommend a behaviourist. Developing an understanding of the whys and wherefores of aggression is an amazing help, and a behaviourist can assess your dog's individual temperament and give you information relevant to managing your particular dog. Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt is also amazing, but in all honesty the unleashed bit in the title is a bit misleading, you probably won't ever be able to have him unleashed around other dogs no matter how much work you do.

It's a pain at first, because all of us who have dogs who are untrustworthy around other dogs had probably originally envisaged lovely weekends at the dog beach, all off leash playing. It is difficult to abandon those fantasies, but you do have to let them go unfortunately. Just breathe out and accept it, it can't happen, it's not worth the risk. Once you get used to the management your dog requires though, you will find plenty of equally enjoyable activities that you can indulge in safely with your dog. For years I had only walked my dog in the bush, but just recently I discovered I love walking (on leash ofc) around my suburb too, I haven't lived here long so I am still exploring all the back streets, and learning my way around the alleys and tracks, very enjoyable walks I find.

Thanks for the advice! If any owner was to have a DA dog, it would probably be me most of my friends love dogs but don't have any of their own, the dogs in our area are scattered thinly across three reserves and walking trails (none of which are little dogs, so at least they won't be able to sneak up on us), and I'm not a good enough mulitasker to manage more than one dog at a time (and two cats!). I'm also studying to get into a veterinary science and since in depth animal behaviour wouldn't be part of the main syllabus, it is always something that I wanted to know more about. Be careful what you wish for!

We also managed to wait in a room and later walk out of a vet visit with a great dane, a lab, and a labradoodle without any fuss, so I'm positive about our future.

I'm also already halfway through Control Unleashed, was introduced to it in one of my lectures, I'm finding it a really good read so far.

[hankdog]

Yes I think he didn't know that this was his home, he used to try get into any clients car. Almost as if he wanted to go home poor thing. Resource guarding of you and defense of his territory might up the ante when he comes to regard you as his. I think being bounced around is very hard for dogs.

[skip]

Just like to say it sounds like he is very lucky to have an owner like you.

Two weeks isn't very long, sounds like he is learning heaps. Someone I know who rescues said it can take a while for a rescue dog to really settle in and for its personality to develop.

Good luck with it all. It is very rewarding to have a rescue dog.

[corie]

Yes I think he didn't know that this was his home, he used to try get into any clients car. Almost as if he wanted to go home poor thing. Resource guarding of you and defense of his territory might up the ante when he comes to regard you as his. I think being bounced around is very hard for dogs.

He was pretty quiet the first week home. So far I've found that he's not a big barker, food/attention/his ball/sensing other dogs on walks, his whole body kind of just goes on high alert, ears and tail and everything up, when normally indoors his body language is completely submissive. Although I've found that he's more likely to bark when he is suddenly close to a dog that he can see. Although one of my neighbours looks after her kids' terriers on occasion, and a couple of days ago I heard the little terror yapping at the dogs who live on the other side of us, and I caught our one contributing a single bark to the chorus.

I've also been trying to reinforce in his mind that the house is more 'my' territory than his :p He'll wait for me to go through doors first, and some other small things I've picked up from books/DOL forums, but I shall wait for a professional opinion to see the extent of how much it's been working!

Just like to say it sounds like he is very lucky to have an owner like you.

Two weeks isn't very long, sounds like he is learning heaps. Someone I know who rescues said it can take a while for a rescue dog to really settle in and for its personality to develop.

Good luck with it all. It is very rewarding to have a rescue dog.

That's really, really encouraging for me to hear, thank you!! My mum's smitten with him already, and he's a far cuter furball than I was ever expecting a cattle dog to be :D Although this mostly just means that I'm always surprised by his extremely stubborn moments, heh.

[persephone]

corie... take the time to go through THIS THREAD on reactive dogs , a bit like your boy. It's good you are aware of body language ... and this thread may give you more information on managing things.

[corie]

corie... take the time to go through THIS THREAD on reactive dogs , a bit like your boy. It's good you are aware of body language ... and this thread may give you more information on managing things.

I'm on page 15 of that thread and counting :D (well, 15 for me, I've changed my forum settings so I see more posts per page). A few of my questions have already been answered as I trawl through, and found some answers to questions I hadn't even thought about asking as well, as well as ideas on making the backyard more interesting.

[hankdog]

Mental training will wear him out more than running . Lots of fun and a way to get to know him even better is 101 things to do with a box. I'm an absolute clicker convert, would have used it on my kids if I knew about it then. It has been a very good way for me to see Jake in a positive light and I think it's been helpful for him to communicate with me and try stuff (Jake's as mad as a hatter). I would advise you to not put all your focus onto his reactivity. I do lots of tricks and have put together some agility stuff at home. It helps me see that he has so much more to offer than just the "issues". A good behaviorist in your corner is so important. You'll get to see dog ownership in a whole new way.

[corie]

Mental training will wear him out more than running . Lots of fun and a way to get to know him even better is 101 things to do with a box. I'm an absolute clicker convert, would have used it on my kids if I knew about it then. It has been a very good way for me to see Jake in a positive light and I think it's been helpful for him to communicate with me and try stuff (Jake's as mad as a hatter). I would advise you to not put all your focus onto his reactivity. I do lots of tricks and have put together some agility stuff at home. It helps me see that he has so much more to offer than just the "issues". A good behaviorist in your corner is so important. You'll get to see dog ownership in a whole new way.

I think I had problems with this when I first started getting responses to this thread. A couple days ago I was doing a quick run to my neighbour's at night and decided to take my boy with me since they hadn't met him yet. On the way there and back, we ran into the same off lead bully we had met at the park. He reacted much more to him this time around - but I'm convinced it was a combination of it being dark and so the bully had surprised me, I had been in a hurry, and most of all, I was far more anxious about him meeting a dog than I had been the last time because I had been worrying about him so much. Some practise for me to find a distinction between being careful and being worried.

Something's stopping me from starting clicker training - and I don't know what it is! I've sat down on a couple occasions and poked at why I don't have much of an interest in it, with no success. We're doing okay with verbal cues, I'll probably pick it up when I've got more time on my hands (my exam period starts next week). I've also been reading your posts about Jake, hankdog, I've worked through about two thirds of the reactive dogs thread. Jake's progress has unfolded in front of me like a good book!

I had been considering getting a BC before this guy came along, and research into that breed taught me (and convinced me!) that mental stimulation really can be more tiring than running around. Last night I got him to show me a few moves each time before I threw him a ball, and after we went inside he just walked over to me and plopped his head on my hand and fell right asleep! I didn't even have the heart to move him.

On that note, I've posted two photos of him over on this photo thread, a bit dark, but there'll definitely be more to come :)