Dog Attack Ashcroft Today

[sandgrubber]

Santos, you make it sound like it's black and white. It isn't.

The two most vicious dogs in my immediate neighborhood, Dixie and Emily, are both Labradors. Emily's partner in the yard, LuLu, a pit bull type, has a bad habit of jumping the fence, but she doesn't growl at people or dogs, much less attack; without Emily, I suspect she would be a friendly, stable dog. Dixie's family also has a second dog, a rough coat daschund named Boomer. Remember that study in 2008 that found daschunds to be the most aggressive breed; well Boomer is a fat, cuddly sook who sticks close to his Mum.

There ARE breed tendencies in pedigree dogs, no question that these are genetic. You'd have a hard time training normal Labbies as schutzhunds. But if you really wanted to do so, and you could find a few dogs like Dixie and Emily, you could probably develop a line of Labbies that would match the GSD's and Rotties in schutz training (actually, forget Dixie, she's unstable). Likewise, if you really wanted, you could develop lines of pit bull that were sweet and docile with soft mouths.

The problem, as others have noted, is that there's a small population of dick heads who LIKE dog fights, and like snarling, biting dogs, the tougher the better. Such drongos, as a rule, don't believe in desexing, and brag about it when their monster sires a litter on the bitch down the street. There's a larger group of people that is less extreme, but tolerates dog aggression and for some reason likes to have a mean dog in the yard. Unfortunately for bull breeds, they are favored by such idiots.

I'm a Labrador person, not a bull breed person, so I'm b.s.'ing here. But I imagine it would be pretty hard for a bull breed person to find a niche in the dog world if they specialized in breeding for sweet tempered dogs. The altruists in the bull breed community seems to be heavily involved in rescue, and few of them have any interest in breeding out the traits that get bull breeds in trouble.

The cultural side is important. I've met several aggressive Labs, every one of them was desexed. A Lab breeder I know euth'd an imported, titled dog because he bit and harmed a puppy.

[BlackJaq]

Not sure I get your point Santo. If we were living 20 years ago then I'm sure OH's dog would have been some kind of Rotty mix or maybe a GSD mix. Coming from the people he did, he would have had the same piss poor temperament, because that is what these drongos (thanks sandgrubber ) selected for.

I have openly admitted that OH got the dog as a penis extension. He did not buy him as a Schutzhund prospect or a Police Service dog prospect. He didn't even buy him as a pet and companion. He bought him because it was what his friends were doing and it was the cool thing to do.

He has been slow in learning his lesson but at least he is being reasonably responsible about the way he manages the dog (my "hints" might be helping, too).

By the way, OH has a brother who is a little slow due to oxygen deprivation at birth and who was gifted a puppy by his mother after the parents split up and OH went with his father. That puppy grew up to be one mean m*therf***er, very bitey and headstrong. The (very young and mentally disabled) brother had been in charge of raising the puppy and I refused to take the dog in when his mother was trying to dump him on us in his old age as I did not want to deal with another problem dog. The breed was Golden Retriever btw. So much for your breed stereotyping. That dog was a menace and not managed anywhere near as closely as our prick of a bull breed and thus much more likely to actually hurt somebody due to sucky ownership.

Edited June 6, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Aphra]

The Lagotto sent a shudder up my spine. And man, are those Neos ever scary ...

[Dame Aussie]

[tdierikx]

I met a Neo that was supposedly not happy about strangers coming up to her... so I just sat on the ground and asked her if she wanted a pat. I got a huge Neo face washing kiss... or maybe she was just testing to see if I were edible? lol! She was actually a very nice dog when approached in a non-threatening manner, and her owner was impressed that she acquiesced to my invitation for a kiss and a pat.

Sometimes it pays to be a crazy dog lady - she was incredibly soft to pat, and gave great kisses. Neo's are stunning dogs, and I just HAD to see if she'd come to the party for a pat...

T.

[inez]

The Lagotto sent a shudder up my spine. And man, are those Neos ever scary ...

attachment=268006:groupshot02.jpg

Dead ringer for that so rare "blue" Neo, except, 30 people heaved a sigh of relief to learn he had died. His owner was devestated just like this lady http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2216806/Mother-watches-horror-American-Bulldog-stabbed-23-times-irate-pet-owner-fight-dog.html

The neo in question was pretty much as cute looking when he was on his owners lounge, verandah and lawn, pity they didnt keep him there. Did the neo's owner care about keeping their dog under control.

Never.

The neo's owner didnt care a jot.

The damm thing would threaten to attack anyone trying to get to their own car, unless the owner was home to call it off. People today are maybe too dammed polite. Back in the olden days a shot would have dispatched such dogs.

The last straw was when it went into the dressage arena and stright into the path of a cantering pony, the dog didnt see the pony as he slid under the rail then soon as he realised the pony was only feet away he spun at it and went for its face. They pony in panic fled dumping the child riding it. The dog began to strut at the child and threatened it too but by then all the adults were running at it and screaming at it to go home, which for a change it did. There had been 6 children having their lessons. By the end of the incident only 3 were still on their ponies. The others all needed medical attention for their injouries. (thats a problem with ponies and horses, one panics and takes fright the rest flee too. Its instinctive, especially when a giant appears from nowhere and attacks one of their number. I doubt the screaming running parents helped the situation.)

An official letter of complaint was sent regarding that incident and the many others and the owner decided maybe having him desexed would solve his aggression problems. Never seemed to occur to them, keeping it in their own property might have been a start. There was jubilation when it was learned he died during the op.

All dogs are cute at home with their humans.

They are far from cute or wanted on Public area's or other peoples land. Its a pity that message doesnt get out there LOUD AND CLEAR?

HOW can that be achieved?

I am rather sure if it was, there would no longer be such headlines and the poor jogger (the OP is about) wouldnt be in Liverpool hospital either.

I bet the owner of the dogs who tore him to pieces can show you their cute goofy mug shots at home too.

Except they werent at home being loving and goofy that day?

They too probably just loooove their pigs ears. Maybe their owner forgot to bring some home so they went out to collect some for themselves? Didnt the cannibals of old describe their dinner as long pig? Maybe they just thought the jogger was their long pig and it was all just an unfortunate case of mistaken identity?

Edited June 6, 2013 by inez

[Aphra]

I'm sure you got a fright, but one Neo causing trouble doesn't mean they're all like that. In fact had Homer got out without me, he'd have been every bit as friendly as he wad with his cats Which is irrelevant really, because the plural of anecdote is not data.

In a decade or so of rescuing I've handled hundreds of rescue dogs of all breeds and sizes, the only one I truly believed was going to bite me was a Labrador.

[inez]

I'm sure you got a fright, but one Neo causing trouble doesn't mean they're all like that. In fact had Homer got out without me, he'd have been every bit as friendly as he wad with his cats Which is irrelevant really, because the plural of anecdote is not data.

In a decade or so of rescuing I've handled hundreds of rescue dogs of all breeds and sizes, the only one I truly believed was going to bite me was a Labrador.

You really dont understand do you?

Its not the tens of thousands of good dogs that are the problem. Its the few that have temprement problems whose owners dont man up and make sure they are not given an inch to be a danger to the community, OR PUT THE DARN THING DOWN, who are the reasons these headlines happen.

The owner of that dog in the link, thinks she and her dog are the victum in that scene. She and people like her and the owner of that Neo AND the dogs who attacked the jogger, ARE THE PROBLEM.

Maybe its a about time people stopped being polite and saying "shame on you" to people like the woman in the link who was just as sure her baby wouldnt hurt a fly and let him run where he liked?

Maybe its about time public opinion expected people to keep their dogs at home and under control. Instead of crying foul and asking government to DO SOMETHING.

Its only the people who have daily contact with these nusiance dogs who end up telling the press, we all knew he/she/they are trouble.

Edited June 6, 2013 by inez

[Aphra]

Nobody is this entire thread has denied that loose dogs, particularly large unsocialised ones are a serious problem. What people are saying is that breed is not the issue, it is lack of responsible management, adequate containment and appropriate socialization on the part of the owner.

There is nothing wrong with my comprehension so the bold caps are unnecessary. Your experience with the Neo has clearly frightened you, but had the dog been a St Bernard or a Standard Poodle, the issue would still have been a large, threatening dog not contained.

[Santo66]

When aggression is required in working dogs, why are particular breeds used and not just any breed. Why don't the police use Labradors and Golden Retreivers in apprehension roles when no breed is more aggressive than others, they all have teeth right......so tell us why they don't use particluar breeds when aggression and fighting drive is paramount in the job?

I think you are mistaking tenacity and trainability with "aggression"...

The dog's like this because it has a dickhead owner or is it the genetics of the dog? How come the breeders used a Bull breed to produce a dog like this and not a Standard Poodle or Golden Retriever when you previously said breed doesn't mean a dog will be more aggressive than another?

Because bull breeds are the "penis extension" dog to own nowadays. It used to be Rotties, Dobes, GSDs, and the like - now it's "tough looking" bull breeds...

The fact that this problem dog's owners are managing his issues says a lot more about responsible ownership than irresponsible, wouldn't you think?

T.

You can't train courage and fighting drive into a genetically inadequate dog......may high scoring dogs in bite sports cannot be cross trained into protection roles as they will back down under pressure, they have prey drive to bite but lack defence drive to fight, in other words, a dog may come in for a bite and a good kick will send the dog tail tucked into submission, dogs like this will NOT continue with a mauling when there is an escape path.

For a dog to ultimately maul someone, it needs have an instinctive fight over flight character and many Bull breeds have that character, the reason the "penis extension" suppliers use Bull breeds to produce that type of dog. They could achieve the same with Rottweiler's, GSD's, Belgian Malinois etc etc, but those type of traditional protection breeds are a bit more specialised in the bloodlines, harder to source with more breeder control of who gets hold of them and what they do with them as a general rule. It is said that around 1 in 300 average GSD's have the genetic capacity to be protection trained......the yobbos who want hard ass dogs use Bull breeds for a reason is the point I am making.

Bull breeds are not weak dogs by any stretch of the imagination, even one's of excellent temperament, put them in a position where they are in need to defend, they are not breeds that will easily back down to pressure......we need to accept this IMHO......denial of breed specific traits is not the answer.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Santo66

[trinabean]

Nobody is this entire thread has denied that loose dogs, particularly large unsocialised ones are a serious problem. What people are saying is that breed is not the issue, it is lack of responsible management, adequate containment and appropriate socialization on the part of the owner.

There is nothing wrong with my comprehension so the bold caps are unnecessary. Your experience with the Neo has clearly frightened you, but had the dog been a St Bernard or a Standard Poodle, the issue would still have been a large, threatening dog not contained.

Great post Aphra.

[inez]

Nobody is this entire thread has denied that loose dogs, particularly large unsocialised ones are a serious problem. What people are saying is that breed is not the issue, it is lack of responsible management, adequate containment and appropriate socialization on the part of the owner.

There is nothing wrong with my comprehension so the bold caps are unnecessary. Your experience with the Neo has clearly frightened you, but had the dog been a St Bernard or a Standard Poodle, the issue would still have been a large, threatening dog not contained.

Great post Aphra.

Your both right, thanks for pointing it out. After you have been attacked its a bit hard to retain perspective or be objective.

Edited June 6, 2013 by inez

[inez]

hit the wrongkey

Edited June 6, 2013 by inez

[tdierikx]

For a dog to ultimately maul someone, it needs have an instinctive fight over flight character and many Bull breeds have that character, the reason the "penis extension" suppliers use Bull breeds to produce that type of dog. They could achieve the same with Rottweiler's, GSD's, Belgian Malinois etc etc, but those type of traditional protection breeds are a bit more specialised in the bloodlines, harder to source with more breeder control of who gets hold of them and what they do with them as a general rule. It is said that around 1 in 300 average GSD's have the genetic capacity to be protection trained......the yobbos who want hard ass dogs use Bull breeds for a reason is the point I am making.

... and the point I'm making is that all of those "traditional" breeds HAVE been the subject of public distrust in times past for exactly the same reasons bull breeds are now. None of those breeds were banned or subject to BSL conditions - instead, the breeding community stepped up and became somewhat more selective about where their dogs were/are going, yes? THAT is the answer - not BSL or banning of entire breed types.

The other fact I'm making is that the number of responsible bull breed dog owners is higher than the number that aren't - but the media do love a juicy story with an evil protagonist... funnily enough, there have been many cases of dog attacks that go unreported in the media because the dog was not a bull breed or able to be called a "pitbull"...

My friend who had her face mauled by a Maltese wasn't asked for a story by the media - neither was another friend whose pet toy poodle savagely mauled his child's face... and both bear the daily scars of what happened to them by those 2 small dogs. Both dogs were euthed by the way...

T.

[melzawelza]

I think some people forget that the percentage of dogs - of all breeds - that attack is very, very low. The percentage of dogs -of all breeds- that attack badly such as this one is even lower. Minuscule. The absolute vast majority of all dogs, including bull breeds, never bite or attack anyone or anything.

While we should always be looking into the research for what is proven to make that number even smaller, we shouldn't get caught up in the myth that there is a 'dog bite epidemic' or that people are being mauled by dogs left right and centre. It simply isn't the case. Living with dogs is incredibly safe. Much safer than getting in a car every day.

[Rebanne]

For a dog to ultimately maul someone, it needs have an instinctive fight over flight character and many Bull breeds have that character, the reason the "penis extension" suppliers use Bull breeds to produce that type of dog. They could achieve the same with Rottweiler's, GSD's, Belgian Malinois etc etc, but those type of traditional protection breeds are a bit more specialised in the bloodlines, harder to source with more breeder control of who gets hold of them and what they do with them as a general rule. It is said that around 1 in 300 average GSD's have the genetic capacity to be protection trained......the yobbos who want hard ass dogs use Bull breeds for a reason is the point I am making.

... and the point I'm making is that all of those "traditional" breeds HAVE been the subject of public distrust in times past for exactly the same reasons bull breeds are now. None of those breeds were banned or subject to BSL conditions - instead, the breeding community stepped up and became somewhat more selective about where their dogs were/are going, yes? THAT is the answer - not BSL or banning of entire breed types.

There was BSL regarding GSD's, none could be imported into the country for approx 30 years I think it was and couldn't be taken into the NT unless desexed, maybe they couldn't go past the rabbit fence line, can't quite remember that. I also think they had to be muzzled while out being walked. They could still be bred from though.

[gwp4me]

On another note, could we please do something productive, open our hearts - and consider giving a new life/start to some of the innocent bull breed dogs in pounds, atm, who are facing the death penalty - mainly purebred looking staffies and their crosses, by adopting one, or sponsoring one?? You can look them up on this forum under: Urgent Rescues and Requests?? This is meant to be taken in a nice, positive way. Thank you! :)

[Salukifan]

This discussion was doomed the moment it turned towards the attributes of differing breeds.

What part of ALL DOGS ARE ONLY AS DANGEROUS AS THEIR OWNERS ALLOW THEM TO BE aren't people grasping?

For every dog of a breed someone cites as having acted dangerously, there will be legions of that breed who never hurt a fly. Don't buy into the BSL philosophy peeps - it's a dangerous nonsense.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Pailin]

I think some people forget that the percentage of dogs - of all breeds - that attack is very, very low. The percentage of dogs -of all breeds- that attack badly such as this one is even lower. Minuscule. The absolute vast majority of all dogs, including bull breeds, never bite or attack anyone or anything.

While we should always be looking into the research for what is proven to make that number even smaller, we shouldn't get caught up in the myth that there is a 'dog bite epidemic' or that people are being mauled by dogs left right and centre. It simply isn't the case. Living with dogs is incredibly safe. Much safer than getting in a car every day.

I agree with this post, I posted earlier in the thread pointing out the exact same thing. If we actually figured out the number of dogs owned in Australia, the number of those who then attack etc, the percentage of attacks would be miniscule.

Horrible stories like the attack on the jogger are a rare occurrence not a common one. Better to gain insight into the "Why and how" of what happened with the attack and leading up to the attack than to have a knee jerk reaction and blaming entire breeds for the shortcomings of 3 specific dogs.

In much the same way that we cannot generalise all Muslims (some of the most peaceful and loving people I have ever met) for the actions of the extremists within their religion, we cannot generalise bull breeds or large breed dogs for the failings of few within their ranks.

[Aphra]

Same old, same old, really.

During the mid 1920s the Graziers Federal Council of Australia and other parties claimed that the “ Alsatian Dog “ represented a threat, that the dog was vicious, it had wolf blood in its veins, it was a sheep killer and if crossed with the dingo it would be dangerous. Despite professional advice which repudiated these claims, the Federal Government passed an import ban on the 24^th July 1928 which was imposed on 2^nd May 1929. This ban although initially for 5 years was not eased until 1972 and not repealed until 5^th March 1974.

http://www.gsdcqld.org.au/The.German.Shepherd.Dog.In.Australia.htm

There was BSL regarding GSD's, none could be imported into the country for approx 30 years I think it was and couldn't be taken into the NT unless desexed, maybe they couldn't go past the rabbit fence line, can't quite remember that. I also think they had to be muzzled while out being walked. They could still be bred from though.