Socialising Dogs

[Staffyluv]

We didn't have our usual trainer at obedience today, so we were in a mixed class.

Considering Zig had so many new dogs around him he did quite well.

Mind you, he is still very stimulated by new dogs and new things, so he was a little more excited today and had more corrections than usual today.

There is a woman with a dog (about Weim size but a bit thinner in build) and this dog was in our beginners class. She was always trying to socialise him with the rest of the class and he had more than one go at a few of the dogs. He had a bit of a go at Zig once and I have tried to avoid her from then on.

Now she was in our class today and the trainer wanted us to socialise our dogs. Zig was great with all the other dogs but he kept turning away from her dog. So the trainer got on his knees and pulled both her dog and Zig toward him, so they were close, patting them both, explaining he was reassuring them that meeting was OK.

I saw her dog curl his lip and I pulled Zig out.

I was told this was the wrong thing to do as they need to learn to get along.

I explained how I felt about her dog and the fact that I thought he was unpredictable.

I apologised to her and said it wasn't personal but I would just prefer to socialise him with dogs that I know are friendly.

She nodded and said she thought I was overprotective of Zig and her dog wasn't going to hurt him.

The trainer was still of the opinion that they all needed to be socialised together and get along.

I said that I felt it was unfair to both her dog and Zig - her dog because you could see how tense it is meeting other dogs and Zig because the other dog has the potential to have a go.

The body language on this dog is so tense. He only seems to relax when he is at the end of the line away from other dogs.

Less than 10 minutes later her dog had another dog pinned and it took her and the trainer to pull it off the other dog.

This woman insists on walking her dog right up to us (because Zig is so friendly) and trying the 3 second intro all the time. I walk away every time or pull him out right on the 3 second mark because I don't want her dog near mine.

Don't get me wrong, I love having a friendly, non confrontational dog and I am happy to help socialise with controlled walks etc but having her just walk up when I am not looking is unfair IMO.

Am I wrong?

Should I allow her and her dog to continue to come up to Zig?

I will be honest and say that I don't want her dog anywhere near Zig after what saw today..

[Sue & Waldo]

Short answer is that you are not wrong.

I think the trainer needs a bit more training. I am trying not to be critical of a volunteer because I am one and understand the effort put in but I don't think they understood the situation.

I think you did well and I would also be staying away from that dog and firmly telling the owner to please keep your dog away.

[Kavik]

You are not wrong. It is great that he turned away from that dog instead of having a go at it, he is telling you he isn't comfortable meeting it, and I would respect his wishes on this. They don't have to like every dog, or even meet every dog. The important thing IMO is that they can work around other dogs, not whether they want to meet or play with them.

[OSoSwift]

You did the right thing and I wouldn't be allowing the dog to come up to mine.

Your dog is lovely now but if this or any other dog has goes at him or pins him then he won't stay that way for long.

My dogs do not go to training to say hello to other dogs and talk to them. They go to learn how to be have around many other dogs, people and distractions.

Making dogs put up with having another dog in their face is in my opinion completely unnecessary and potentially harmfull

[aussielover]

I guess it depends on your definition of socialising. Not everyone has the same ideas when it comes to socialising but it important that you train your dog according to what you want of him, not what others tell you.

Personally I don't see the point of making 2 dogs who are clearly uncomfortable get up close and personal. If anything it is going to have negative consequences so I think you were right to remove your dog from that situation. Who cares if they think you are anti social or overprotective, you have to do what is best for your dog.

I think you and Zig did well in that situation.

[Mudlark]

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread so far.

You are doing everything right.

The next time the instructor wants to pull your dog and the tense dog together I would politely decline the opportunity.

[Jumabaar]

Numpties!

Sometimes you just have to accept that the people in charge know less than you do (about your dog and about training in general) and you just have to say no. I get really annoyed about other dogs invading my space- accidents/one offs are fine. The first time its a request to respect my space and my dogs space and after that its a much gruffer bugger off. Its fine to do that type of thing (maybe) however if you cant read dogs, or if someone says they are not comfortable then only a numpty would try and push the issue.

[Staffyluv]

You did the right thing and I wouldn't be allowing the dog to come up to mine.

Your dog is lovely now but if this or any other dog has goes at him or pins him then he won't stay that way for long.

My dogs do not go to training to say hello to other dogs and talk to them. They go to learn how to be have around many other dogs, people and distractions.

Making dogs put up with having another dog in their face is in my opinion completely unnecessary and potentially harmfull

This is the point I was trying to make..

Zig has an awesome temperament. He is tolerant of everything. Puppies jumping on him, chewing on him etc - playing, he loves it. Other dogs sitting or leaning on him - he is in his element being close to other dogs. To date the couple of times another dog has had a go, he rolls over or runs to me.

I want him to stay that way and I tried to say that today but I don't think I expressed it the way I wanted to.

As a staffy cross, if he was to have a go at another dog and they complained - well I hate to think of what the consequences would/could be.

This is also the reason I have worked so hard with him to make sure he is a happy go lucky lad, who gets on with other friendly dogs.

I have taken the advice of others here and he now only plays with known dogs and we leave the park if unknown dogs turn up these days.

I also appreciate that the trainers at the club are volunteers and they are great on the whole - I just felt this situation today was very out of the ordinary and I wasn't comfortable with it at all.

ETA, thanks for the input, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overreacting.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Staffyluv

[corvus]

If it's been weeks and the Weim hasn't improved, THIS SHOULD TELL THEM SOMETHING. "Socialisation" like this can single-handedly create all the problems those doing it are trying to avoid. They will not "learn how to get along" by being forced to interact when they don't want to. They will learn how to head off interactions they don't want, and then they will decide there are more and more interactions they don't want. My parents had a dog that went through this and by the time he was a year old he was downright dangerous.

[Tassie]

You did the right thing and I wouldn't be allowing the dog to come up to mine.

Your dog is lovely now but if this or any other dog has goes at him or pins him then he won't stay that way for long.

My dogs do not go to training to say hello to other dogs and talk to them. They go to learn how to be have around many other dogs, people and distractions.

Making dogs put up with having another dog in their face is in my opinion completely unnecessary and potentially harmfull

Absolutely!!!!

No way in hell would I let that happen to any dog of mine - let alone my reactive boy. I don't do any of the sort of weaving through dogs etc. that happens in some classses. I just melt away and take my boy for a wee or something like that, and come back in when it's safe. If it's appropriate, I might speak to the trainer afterwards to explain.

You did the right thing - you know Zig, and you are his advocate.

[huski]

Personally I would avoid any classes this instructor runs, how extremely frustrating. Like others have said training is an opportunity to teach your dog and proof them around distractions like other dogs, that the trainer allowed this dog to pin another dog is testament to the way their approach is not working.

[Staffyluv]

She has tried to socialise her dog with Zig and a couple of others a quite a few times and sometimes he seems OK. But I have seen him have a go at a few dogs (Zig included) since we started.

There is one dog at training that he seems to get on with and I have seen them play bowing to each other.

I don't think he is a bad dog, just because he isn't comfortable with other dogs near him. I have had the opportunity to have a pat and he can be a lovely guy.

[OSoSwift]

They will not "learn how to get along" by being forced to interact when they don't want to.

Yes yes and yes, I hear the oh but they will sort it out or learn to get along and it makes me want to slap people. No they won't!!!

[Staffyluv]

Personally I would avoid any classes this instructor runs, how extremely frustrating. Like others have said training is an opportunity to teach your dog and proof them around distractions like other dogs, that the trainer allowed this dog to pin another dog is testament to the way their approach is not working.

Huski, he didn't allow this dog to pin the other. He was very quick to help break it up. We had actually finished the 'socialisation exercise' and were back in line when it happened. I probably should have explained that better.

If anything the owner of the dog lets it get to close to other dogs (and honestly, I am no expert but even I can see the dog isn't comfortable with other dogs right near it).. This boy is happy on a loose leash and when he does lunge and have a go, it is so quick (like I guess most situations like this are). I don't think his owner can read him at all.

This trainer has actually helped me before with Zig, so I think on the whole that he does know what he is doing - which is probably why I thought the whole socialisation thing today was odd.

We tend to let the dogs interact a bit before class and when we are not 'working' and after class - the friendly ones (which is most of them) can, if you want to, go into one of the fenced areas and have a play.

I think most people know if their dog is 'friendly' enough to have a play and or interact (on lease or off) - but she doesn't see that her dog is not happy when she drags him up to another dog and says say hello mate, nicely mate..

ETA - Oso and Corvus, exactly.

I have always said, I don't like everyone I meet so why should my dog.. But in saying that, you should at least have control over the dog so it doesn't do anything wrong.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Staffyluv

[huski]

IMHO if its a group training environment it's up the to trainer to be in control of the situation. From your description it sounded like the trainer ignored or couldn't read the signals this dog was displaying to indicate it wasn't behaving appropriately. Perhaps that wasn't the case but precautions should be taken so this dog isn't put in a position where it can attack another dog. If the owner doesn't understand the severity of the problem the trainer needs to help her understand how to manage the dog safely. Just my opinion :)

I will happily put my hand out in a stop sign and clearly tell people I don't want other dogs approaching mine, if I think a situation is going to go that way. It can take practice to be confident telling others not to let their dogs approach you.

[corvus]

IME there's no point trying to explain to the trainer why you don't agree with them. I have rarely found trainers who were comfortable with this. To them, they are being challenged on their own turf and I'm sure to some it seems threatening. If I don't agree I keep my mouth shut, smile and nod, and quietly do it the way I want to do it. It is hard when they put you on the spot. Both my dogs are well socialised enough that I rarely feel I need to get into conflict over it, but I think that when push comes to shove, backing away and saying "Sorry, I'm not comfortable with this." is the most likely to be respected. You don't need to explain further or defend yourself. Just think of it as a stop signal and keep saying it if you are pressed. I once saw a professional trainer do this to another professional trainer and they averted a potentially nasty situation by doing so without getting into an argument or creating conflict with the other trainer.

[Staffyluv]

IMHO if its a group training environment it's up the to trainer to be in control of the situation. From your description it sounded like the trainer ignored or couldn't read the signals this dog was displaying to indicate it wasn't behaving appropriately. Perhaps that wasn't the case but precautions should be taken so this dog isn't put in a position where it can attack another dog. If the owner doesn't understand the severity of the problem the trainer needs to help her understand how to manage the dog safely. Just my opinion :)

I will happily put my hand out in a stop sign and clearly tell people I don't want other dogs approaching mine, if I think a situation is going to go that way. It can take practice to be confident telling others not to let their dogs approach you.

That is very true.. I felt awkward telling them I didn't want Zig socialising with that particular dog. I even apologised to her and said it wasn't anything personal it's just that Zig has a great temperament and I want to keep it that way by only having him socialise with dogs that I deem appropriate..

I felt bad for saying it..

Maybe I should practice it a bit more, so I don't feel the need to apologise for it.

[Panzer Attack]

NO. Stupid instructors like this are one massive part of why my Pap is so dog aggressive now. It's taken almost a year of solid training to get him to the point where he won't go mental whenever he sees another dog - he'll most likely never be 100%. Knowing what I know now, I would have told the instructor that shoved her dog (and other dogs) in Scooter's face to shove it, and complained to the admin office. I wish I had.

[kelpiecuddles]

To me it sounds like that poor dog is very stressed out by the fact that it is being forced in to situations in which is is clearly uncomfortable. Is it a large class? Maybe the trainer needs to somehow seperate the class in to smaller groups so that he doesn't feel like he's surrounded by so many other dogs and gradually work him up to being in a larger group.

Not a whole lot you can do though probably other than maybe have a quiet word with your usual trainer next week about the close contact and how uncomfortable it made you, maybe you could segue into a chat about that dog and what is and isn't working from the perspective of someone else in the class.

[Staffyluv]

I just want to confirm, this guy isn't a 'bad' instructor - he and I just disagreed on the fact that Zig and this other dog should socialise. He didn't know the other dog (it isn't normally in his class) but he has had experience with Zig in a couple of situations and I guess he thought as he is so friendly it might be OK.

This instructor has actually helped me in the past and I respect him for that - I just felt uncomfortable with the situation yesterday and was curious as to others opinions on what happened.

I also wasn't sure I handled it the right way, so wanted to see if others had opinions on what I should have said/done - thanks Corvus, I will use the method of just getting on with it and not doing what I don't feel comfortable with, instead of actually voicing my opinion in front of the class like I did. I didn't mean to come across like I was challenging him, I just didn't want Zig in such close proximity to the other dog.

KC, it was a larger class yesterday as our trainer was away. So there was 11 dogs in the group, from memory and it was a mix of intermediate and advanced.

Our group usually has 6 dogs in the group and only a couple of us were there yesterday(most were at the RSPCA MPW in Canberra).

I really appreciate the input because it gives me other options to consider in situations that I haven't been in before.

Thanks