Border Collie + Ivomectin

[Leela and PJ]

I'm at work my husband has just taken PJ to the vet for 12 week vaccine. The vet has put him on frontline plus heart guard for puppies. As far as I'm aware this contains ivermectin is this bad to give to my BC I have heard not to give ivermectin to BC ??

[persephone]

I wouldn't use it .. we never have on our working dogs ..koolies /BC x's ....

I'm also not sure of up-to-date research ...

Found THIS though .. on FB ...

LINK

[moosepup]

Heartgard Plus does contain Ivermectin. I don't know much about BCs but it's my understanding that Collie breeds can be particularly sensitive to it and it can cause a toxic reaction. I'd use something else.

[DeltaCharlie]

I wouldn't. I think the latest figures are as low as 5% in BCs but still a risk as far as I am concerned. We use Interceptor on all of ours. It says it is safe to use from 2 weeks of age but we don't give any heartworm preventative until they are 6 months old.

[Leela and PJ]

I wouldn't. I think the latest figures are as low as 5% in BCs but still a risk as far as I am concerned. We use Interceptor on all of ours. It says it is safe to use from 2 weeks of age but we don't give any heartworm preventative until they are 6 months old.

I thought interceptor included heart worm?

Thanks for the help. I had my hubby talk to the vet and have pj put on something else. I really don't want to risk it even if it is a small dose of ivermectin.

:) :)

[moosepup]

It does but it's active ingredient for heartworm isn't Ivermectin, it's milbemycin oxime. I use Interceptor too. :)

Edited May 18, 2013 by moosepup

[DeltaCharlie]

I wouldn't. I think the latest figures are as low as 5% in BCs but still a risk as far as I am concerned. We use Interceptor on all of ours. It says it is safe to use from 2 weeks of age but we don't give any heartworm preventative until they are 6 months old.

I thought interceptor included heart worm?

Thanks for the help. I had my hubby talk to the vet and have pj put on something else. I really don't want to risk it even if it is a small dose of ivermectin.

:) :)

It does do heartworm but doesn't have ivermectin in it. We use drontal all wormers until 6 months then put them onto interceptor :)

[Leela and PJ]

I wouldn't. I think the latest figures are as low as 5% in BCs but still a risk as far as I am concerned. We use Interceptor on all of ours. It says it is safe to use from 2 weeks of age but we don't give any heartworm preventative until they are 6 months old.

I thought interceptor included heart worm?

Thanks for the help. I had my hubby talk to the vet and have pj put on something else. I really don't want to risk it even if it is a small dose of ivermectin.

:) :)

It does do heartworm but doesn't have ivermectin in it. We use drontal all wormers until 6 months then put them onto interceptor :)

That makes sense.

Just home from work and spoke to my hubby re vet check. The vet didn't discuss anything about worming or flea treatment regime and just dumped the heart guard plus/frontline as well as drontal wormer on the counter and walked off. When hubby called back re ivermectin she told him to get an alternative treatment from petbarn.

So I need to figure out what I should be giving PJ.

I have heard some people don't give heartworm until 6 months why is this?

What do you use for flea tick treatment in puppies?

Sorry for the questions my vet was no help whatsoever.

[DeltaCharlie]

I don't use anything for fleas as I have never had an issue with them. We use advantix for ticks if we are going coastal or to Sydney, although Charlie will often get frontline instead as the advantix comes in 6 packs and we don't want to buy 2. Being shortcoated he gets the frontline and more rigourous checking.

In all honesty, I don't know where the 6 month thing came from. It was something that was told to me (and many others) years ago and I've just stuck with it. If products such as interceptor are labelled as safe for pregnant bitches, whelping mothers and can be given orally from 2 weeks I'm not sure if people have perhaps changed their thinking or more research has been done into it? Canberra generally doesn't have to worry about heartworm and any mozzies around now would be frozen so our pups (9 weeks old) wont get interceptor for a few more months.

[moosepup]

The first thing I'd get is a new vet. :)

I can't answer the HW q, I'm just going on my breeders advice and will start him on HW from 3 months. I don't give flea preventatives to my dogs, we don't have a flea problem here and my dogs have never had them. The less chems the better if i'ts an option.

[DeltaCharlie]

Interestingly enough I went into the local vet (not our usual one) the other day to pick up a single drontal tablet as the suspension we have been using for this litter ran out with one puppy to go. The vet nurse wanted me to have milbemax (i think it was) which has ivermectin in it. I told her that no, I wanted the drontal as these were for BCs and I wouldn't risk the ivermectin. She proceeded to tell me about how she had had BCs for 20 years and they aren't affected, the only breed that is affected is Rough Collies. I simply told her I was more comfortable using the drontal and left it at that. I've now been thinking about it for days and regret not continuing the discussion with her and letting her know that it is in fact an issue in a number of working breeds, including shelties, aussies etc and not just RCs. I would hate to think she gave that information to someone with a different breed and it turned out to have the ivermectin sensitivity gene. We will be testing 3 of ours when we send off the swaps for CEA (sire was a carrier), figure it doesn't hurt to have the facts about our lines in terms of the MDR1 gene.

[persephone]

AFAIK Heartworms take 6 mths to mature .. so starting a pup on heartworm preventative somewhere before/close to this time appears to be 'safe' . Any later, and a blood test will need to be done , as giving the medications with adult worms present can be disastrous (adults die and clog blood vessels)

[Dogsfevr]

Did your breeder not suggest products in there puppy packs??

[luvsdogs]

I heard years back, probably when I 1st got April that puppies get protection from their mothers up until 6 mths provided she has been on HW prevention. I gave her Heartguard for years before I heard that collies shouldn't have ivermectin. So I switched her over to Proheart. She never had a problem with either.

After she died & I was researching meds for Tilba I found out that the active ingredient in proheart was ivermectin, by another name. Now have my dogs on Interceptor Spectrum.

Edited May 25, 2013 by luvsdogs

[dancinbcs]

Interestingly enough I went into the local vet (not our usual one) the other day to pick up a single drontal tablet as the suspension we have been using for this litter ran out with one puppy to go. The vet nurse wanted me to have milbemax (i think it was) which has ivermectin in it. I told her that no, I wanted the drontal as these were for BCs and I wouldn't risk the ivermectin. She proceeded to tell me about how she had had BCs for 20 years and they aren't affected, the only breed that is affected is Rough Collies. I simply told her I was more comfortable using the drontal and left it at that. I've now been thinking about it for days and regret not continuing the discussion with her and letting her know that it is in fact an issue in a number of working breeds, including shelties, aussies etc and not just RCs. I would hate to think she gave that information to someone with a different breed and it turned out to have the ivermectin sensitivity gene. We will be testing 3 of ours when we send off the swaps for CEA (sire was a carrier), figure it doesn't hurt to have the facts about our lines in terms of the MDR1 gene.

Milbemax does not have ivermectin in it. Milbemax (tablets) and Interceptor (chews) are exactly the same drug made by the same company. With large numbers of dogs the 50 pack works out a lot cheaper in the long run as well if you buy it online for a good price. I have used Inteceptor for about 20 years and recently changed to Milbemax because it is easier to get into the dogs, who hate the chews. Also vets in the ACT area are recommending Milbemax to deal with the whipworm outbreak in the area that has become resistant to Drontal.

Most Borders are still dosed with Heartguard and so far no Border Collie in Aust has tested as even carrying the MDR1 gene so it is highly unlikely that Borders in this country will have the problem. If you want to make sure you can simply do the DNA test for the MDR1 gene because dogs affected have to avoid a whole long list of drugs, not just ivermectin.

Edited to add that all the puppy worming suspensions are basically useless. I have used tablets for puppies from 10 days for 25 years. The tablets are easier to dose with and more effective.

Edited May 18, 2013 by dancinbcs

[Jumabaar]

It takes 5-6 months for the larvae to develop into an adult and be immune to the levels of treatment that we use in preventatives.

So it is best to start treatment at 3-4mths of age to make sure you fall well under the time that it takes them to mature.

I believe there are also some studies around showing that ivermectin at the levels currently used as a preventative have not caused problems in MDR1 affected individuals (although to confuse matters further it is now the ABCB1 gene so if you google use this for the most recent information. The levels used to eliminate a patent infection with adult worms is what causes the problems- as well as a few other reasonably common drugs (including milbemycin just to confuse things further). This is a general list- as you can see most of the drugs on the list indicate that they can be used- just to be cautious with them.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/drugs.aspx

Not regarding Australia but still some interesting information.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvdt.ugent.be%2Fcode%2Fshowupload.php%3Fid%3D488&ei=rXuXUYXdGoW5iAeq2IC4BA&usg=AFQjCNE4kdmtguk_75bALP82lymm5A7zlA&bvm=bv.46751780,d.aGc

Edited May 18, 2013 by Jumabaar

[Leela and PJ]

Did your breeder not suggest products in there puppy packs??

Thank you that just reminded me I have an info booklet for PJ.

He was on milbemax puppy.

So if I put him on milbemax and frontline plus (we live in a tick prone area) I should be set?

[Leela and PJ]

Ok I have sorted the issue out and it's not the vets fault it my husbands bad interpretation skills!

The vet has recommended inceptor for heartworm treatment I have just managed to get this info out of my husband now. So cranky. The vet told him that she can order it in or we can purchase it from petbarn.

She had also given instruction to give PJ drontal wormer now and then start on inceptor.

OMG never sending my husband to the vet on his own ever again!

Thank you everyone for listening and talking this through with me. You have all been a huge help and support. :)

[DeltaCharlie]

Interestingly enough I went into the local vet (not our usual one) the other day to pick up a single drontal tablet as the suspension we have been using for this litter ran out with one puppy to go. The vet nurse wanted me to have milbemax (i think it was) which has ivermectin in it. I told her that no, I wanted the drontal as these were for BCs and I wouldn't risk the ivermectin. She proceeded to tell me about how she had had BCs for 20 years and they aren't affected, the only breed that is affected is Rough Collies. I simply told her I was more comfortable using the drontal and left it at that. I've now been thinking about it for days and regret not continuing the discussion with her and letting her know that it is in fact an issue in a number of working breeds, including shelties, aussies etc and not just RCs. I would hate to think she gave that information to someone with a different breed and it turned out to have the ivermectin sensitivity gene. We will be testing 3 of ours when we send off the swaps for CEA (sire was a carrier), figure it doesn't hurt to have the facts about our lines in terms of the MDR1 gene.

Milbemax does not have ivermectin in it. Milbemax (tablets) and Interceptor (chews) are exactly the same drug made by the same company. With large numbers of dogs the 50 pack works out a lot cheaper in the long run as well if you buy it online for a good price. I have used Inteceptor for about 20 years and recently changed to Milbemax because it is easier to get into the dogs, who hate the chews. Also vets in the ACT area are recommending Milbemax to deal with the whipworm outbreak in the area that has become resistant to Drontal.

Most Borders are still dosed with Heartguard and so far no Border Collie in Aust has tested as even carrying the MDR1 gene so it is highly unlikely that Borders in this country will have the problem. If you want to make sure you can simply do the DNA test for the MDR1 gene because dogs affected have to avoid a whole long list of drugs, not just ivermectin.

Edited to add that all the puppy worming suspensions are basically useless. I have used tablets for puppies from 10 days for 25 years. The tablets are easier to dose with and more effective.

Interesting to read that. If you look at the Novartis site they state that interceptor is safe to use for all collie breeds and in indivduals with ivermectin sensitivity. Yet if you look at their milbemax page is says that safety cannot be guaranteed in collie type breeds. I wonder why that is if they are the same drug?

If the milbemax is in fact safe to use it would certainly work out cheaper for us, given that we have 11 dogs to worm each month!

It might not be common in the Australian dogs that have been tested but our dogs are all imported lines or aussie working lines (and I highly doubt any of them have ever tested for MDR1 :) ) Knowing my luck, one of mine would fall into the 1-5% catagory...

[DeltaCharlie]

Ok I have sorted the issue out and it's not the vets fault it my husbands bad interpretation skills!

The vet has recommended inceptor for heartworm treatment I have just managed to get this info out of my husband now. So cranky. The vet told him that she can order it in or we can purchase it from petbarn.

She had also given instruction to give PJ drontal wormer now and then start on inceptor.

OMG never sending my husband to the vet on his own ever again!

Thank you everyone for listening and talking this through with me. You have all been a huge help and support. :)

Men :laugh:

I'd buy it online if I were you, will save you heaps of money compared to buying from petbarn and certainly buying from a vet. There are a number of cheap places that sell it, just do a search and find the cheapest one at the time (they are always having deals on shipping or percentage of products so it pays to shop around).