Hows This For A Puppy Farm

[Steve]

Yes Mita Im aware of all of that but that's exactly what I mean when I say there is two separate issues - one is the facility the other is the fact that they breed large scale for profit.Do they ensure their puppies are highly socilaised so they arent the same as their peers who breed dogs in factory like conditions,who dont socialise them ?

You may be 'aware of all that'.... but you don't grasp it.

You need to think about what socialisation entails. What is enabled in home-style settings, allows for it (the evidence is in), but those factors are not present in large-scale commercial settings to allow for it (the evidence is in).

I follow the evidence. End of story.

Except for consumer action. The pet buying public needs to be made aware of the evidence.... which isn't rocket science. And vote with their feet. It's as much a consumer issue as a welfare problem

Presently, the large scale commercial puppy farms are seen as 'all business is good'.... & some state governments' legislation is working on that financial benefits model.

But, amazingly, at the same time, they're wrestling with the high costs associated with the dumping of dogs in pounds/shelters .... as well as trying to make the community safer from dog bites/attacks.

It needs to be pointed out to them that they can save in both areas, if they track back to associated causes.

Again, the evidence is in....lack of socialisation of puppies is associated with later dog 'problems' that lead to dumping. So, down the track, any 'business' financial benefits from 'farming' dogs gets translated into local government & community costs.

Yeah well I follow the evidence too and its not just studies its what Ive seen and experienced .I breed home raised puppies and I know the difference and how important socialisation is but Ive also been in a house where there were dead dogs stacked on top of each other in a bedroom ,where the stench and crap made all who were exposed to it physically ill as they were cleaning it up. Ive seen dozens of breeding dogs standing in 6 inches of poop imbedded in concrete floors living in cells and never seeing daylight with urine burns and infected eyes from the stench, Ive seen bitches with puppies stacked in crates weeing and pooping into the one under neath and when they are let out once a day desperate to drink the green water form an old wading pool to stay alive - so if its O.K. with you Id prefer to see someplace like this if we have to have large scale commercial kennels.

Socialisation is a biggy and we do need to keep pushing that its a huge difference but its only one thing thats out there and needs to be considered. One of the other things is the conditions and believe me this place is looking good. That's a completely different subject to the ethics of large scale breeding for profit,whether its right or wrong and how lack of socialisation impacts on a puppy.

[sandgrubber]

Socialization is a big thing but SO IS GENETICS! Good, ethical, quality breeders are less common than one would hope. I once knew a beautiful and much used stud dog, great show record, whose unofficial call name includes the name A##hole, cause he's intractable, in a breed that, according to the standard, is biddable, and it is well known that he produces intractable pups. Some show people so title blind that they will overlook serious temperament defects through title blindness. I was amazed at the number of 'good' breeders who used such a dog knowing his defects. To me, breeding from a dog with temperament defects is worse than lack of socialization, cause it persists through generations and contaminates the gene pool. If you get an 8 week old pup who has not been well socialized, you have a good chance of fixing the problem. If the pup carries genes for bad temperament, it's a strike against generations to come.Large scale breeders are important cause they produce so many pups. Lets hope that whoever ends out buying this place, which looks like a lovely facility, has a conscience, and realizes that there's good market demand for healthy, well socialized pups.Ostracizing and condemning large scale breeders is an awful thing to do. Far betters to encourage, pressure, and cajole them in the direction of producing higher quality.

[Jed]

Steve

Ive also been in a house where there were dead dogs stacked on top of each other in a bedroom ,where the stench and crap made all who were exposed to it physically ill as they were cleaning it up. Ive seen dozens of breeding dogs standing in 6 inches of poop imbedded in concrete floors living in cells and never seeing daylight with urine burns and infected eyes from the stench, Ive seen bitches with puppies stacked in crates weeing and pooping into the one under neath and when they are let out once a day desperate to drink the green water form an old wading pool to stay alive - so if its O.K. with you Id prefer to see someplace like this if we have to have large scale commercial kennels.

Neither would be the ideal. I don't think we have to accept small breeders with no compassion either. I have seen places like this too, and it isn't a choice of either/or, it is a choice of none.

And none of us knows the damage done to bitches (and dogs) kept in these puppy farm conditons, but everyone who has "rescued" one speaks of untold psychological damage. Because we have no method of qualifying psychological damage, we are inclined to dislike filthy physical conditions more, when in fact, immaculate puppy farms may cause more damage to the bitch and to the pups.

I had 2 keesonden from a puppy farm. The lived in a 3x3m building, and they had a decent sized run to play in. They did have green water, and they did have a lot of faeces around them.

They were in a frightful way - neither knew it's name, both ignored any commands, one was always standing on your heels, one was always as far away as possible. They were bonded to each other. They had no interest in people at all. They had never been handled, played with or patted. One had been clipped off, and that was it. They no concept of "play" with each other, or with people. They didn't understand toys. They darted off every time they heard a normal "house" noise, they were terrified of the car and had to be manhandled into it.

The only saving grace was that they had been bred by a good kennel, and they had excellent temperaments.

And Sandgrubber, ostracizing large scale breeders is fine with me. They are causing dogs and pups to suffer, they are breeding dogs which are not easy for novice owners.

And I agree with you about the use of stud dogs without temperament according to the standard. Luckily most breeders do seem to use dogs with good temperaments.

[icedmice]

This advertisement is designed to sell the property. They are designed to show the best of the property.

If passionate animal activists had a go they'd show photos of a dog with an abscess on it's face, or cheery eye, a corner with a poop in it, some wire with a bit of fur or spider web on it, maybe even a junk pile which has nothing to do with the facility .... but in saying that I can also appreciate their concerns, which aren't always unjustified if you see things through their eyes. Some are way too extreme and very unreasonable, and that can happen at both ends of the spectrum.

I don't breed dogs, however, I take great pride as a registered rodent breeder, I have an entire room dedicated to mice and my rats share my lounge room.

I also own a pet snake (who, "shock horror" - eats rats ), so people trying to make me look bad would take photos of my pet snake or rusted corners on my cages. Maybe even a bit of poop in the corners.

They won't be showing how spacious my enclosures are or how few are raising litters, how my snake eats rodents that are humanely euthanized by myself or a trusted supplier of reptile food, how a proudly show my rodents in public displays, how I stay up all night if I'm worried about a labor, how dedicated I am in providing owners with accurate information, how much I've spent on vet bills for animals that give absolutely no financial return, giving medication to rats with respiratory infection just because they ARE my pets, my enormous food storage. A lot of ups and downs .... and I love every bit of it, you'd be MAD not to, you'd have to be, there's nothing there unless you actually believed in their value as companion animals.

In saying that, that looks like an awesome property to keep fancy poultry! Few modifications of course (like fox proofing etc). I could imagine geese or chooks having an absolute ball on that property!

You'd have to have to see it in real life. I think the facilities are OK, they don't look like my idea of a puppy farm where facilities are best torn down and removed because they are beyond use for any animal, you'd even be pushing it as a storage shed. This one just needs a face lift, it's not unusable.

It would be most unfortunate if an owner took over without full access to information regarding the animals. Including any health records, vaccinations, pregnancies, ancestry ect ... chances are there aren't any, but I don't make any assumptions.

One can only hope, following the sale of this property, the dogs have the opportunity to be actually be pets, instead of just producing them. The next owner may not have an interest in producing dogs for profit. Re homing all dogs would be difficult, so I feel sorry for the next owners, in reality it isn't their responsibility.

Would it be worthwhile to allow the next owners to know there are options and networks to re-home and rescue the dogs?

It's not something you could force on someone, or even should make them feel bad about, but it may be something they may think about, and having that option may make make all the difference to the dogs there currently.

[dandybrush]

I'd buy the place and turn it into a boarding kennel or something. the facilities dont look to bad tbh maybe the pple are sincere in what they do....

[Rosetta]

"Easy to learn and operate".

How can providing proper care for 80 "breeders" be easy to learn? I would like to know what veterinary care - for example - is provided to these dogs seeing as the location looks like it is quite isolated. The dogs look to be small fluffies (of course) as well so what about the coat maintenance? Yes, really easy to learn all that.

Someone in the US just won half a billion in the lottery - oh to dream of what good could be done with some of that!

[Rocketeer]

If you organise the local listings by price it is sitting at $550,000

That's a bargain. I'll take TWO please!

[Sail_Away]

I contacted the RSPCA about this property and this was their email response to me today:

"Thank you for your concern. RSPCA Qld is vehemently opposed to intensive farming and breeding operations where animals are mass produced for profit with little or no consideration for their welfare. Our campaigns in these areas have made real progression and we are eagerly awaiting the implementation of the Government legislation to curb these practices in Qld. As well as campaigning, we are very interested in investigating, and where appropriate, taking action against facilities that operate under inadequate conditions that fail to meet the behavioural, social and/or physiological needs of the animals. However in order to investigate an animal welfare offence, or to obtain a warrant to inspect these types of properties, we need evidence of an animal welfare offence such as but not restricted to:-Failure to provide appropriate food, water or accommodation.Failure to provide exercise to a closely confined dog.Failure to provide treatment for any injury or disease.Any unreasonable, unjustifiable or unnecessary mistreatment that injures or causes an animal pain. The information you have forwarded, whilst concerning, does not appear to constitute an animal welfare offence. We have been made aware of this property as it has been circulated on the social network and our area inspector is aware of the current situation. Kind regards,Clare Gordon"

So a few people have also notified (probably from this thread) it's a shame they won't even at least look at it - especially considering it will be open for inspection so anyone can go (without needing permit)… I'm hoping the photos shown are close to the true living conditions of these dogs as the RSPCA won't go check it out based on these pics. Just thought I'd update everyone.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Sail_Away

[sheena]

Sounds like the sort of response you would get from a politician Lazy buggers

[tarope]

Maybe it's a...

Who knows...

[Jed]

Love it, Tarope.

Sail_Away (quoting the RSPCA)

Our campaigns in these areas have made real progression and we are eagerly awaiting the implementation of the Government legislation to curb these practices in Qld.

I am sure the legislation will be akin the proposed legislation in NSW and Vic, which actually advantages puppy farms and disadvantages hobby breeders. Maybe RSPCA Qld has someone on board with the smarts about how to legislate.

[Kajirin]

The page doesn't load up any more for it - was it taken down?

[sheena]

It definately has gone. I just had a search of their website & couldn't find it. Maybe the owners have changed estate agents or taken it off the market.

[Sail_Away]

Or sold…?! I responded to the email trying to push for someone to check out the property when the property is open for inspection with the public.. that way not requiring a warrant… long shot I know.. this was the response:

"I am unable to advise if an inspector will be attending the property all I can say is that the area inspector and Chief inspector of operations is aware of the current situation.

Kind regards,

Clare Gordon"

I wonder what's happened to the property?

[Esky the husky]

I believe I read something about it on facebook that the agent is now refusing to list it

[Sail_Away]

I believe I read something about it on facebook that the agent is now refusing to list it

Yay!

Edited May 21, 2013 by Sail_Away

[disintegratus]

I'm not sure that's the best possible outcome. If they can't sell it, best case scenario is that the current owners continue to operate as it is. Wouldn't it be better for it to be sold, at least providing the opportunity for someone better to come along?

[megan_]

And the RSPCA are onto no kill shelters and not these puppy farmers? Same on RSPCA

Dogs - regardless of whether they live in a no-kill shelter, breeding establishment or puppy farm - need to be kept properly.

Unfortunately, the puppy farm listed here most probably does comply with the relevant codes. The no kill shelter which you are referring to doesn't (by their own admission I believe).

The laws for keeping dogs are very minimal (unless you're a registered breeder). Dogs are allowed to be kept in confined spaces and let out for 20 mins a day unfortunately.

Re: the RSPCA, they haven't said they weren't going to look into it? For all they know you are the puppy farmer trying to get info on when an inspection will happen. They have said that they are aware of it. By all reports the RSPCA QLD are good sorts. Each state has their own body and they appear to be very different.