Victoria New Laws

[Diva]

Some of this has to come down to whether it's good regulation. Most state governments and the Federal Government have deregulation agendas and guidance material on best practice regulation. Usually black letter law regulation is supposed to be a last resort, and the costs of compliance for both Government, business and the community are supposed to balance properly against the outcomes. A lot of the NSW recommendations don't comply with it and it looks on first scan like this stuff doesn't either.

I agree its VERY bad regulation - best practice is much more about outcome-based regulation, customer focus and cost-effective compliance. Not this tick-the-box input-based crappola. It reads like they want to be able to prosecute anyone at any time, so put a lot of detailed requirements the average person will not keep documentation on - where are your dog feeding receptacles and disinfectants stored? dogs in house? - where is your last carpet cleaning receipt? why wasn't your dietary plan reviewed and signed of by a vet according to schedule? It's rubbish governance, anal-retentive, inefficent and ineffective.

there's only so much room on the high moral ground and eventually they start kicking each other off it.

love this turn of phrase.

[Steve]

Notice that they say they have only had 10 complaints over a 12 month period from consumers - 10 complaints out of tens of thousands bred and they want to do this - why?

And those cases they use to give examples of what as happened actually happened years ago and not since the latest codes were introduced so where is the recent examples to allow us to see how the current codes are failing and why we need more regulations?

[MonElite]

I agree its VERY bad regulation - best practice is much more about outcome-based regulation, customer focus and cost-effective compliance. Not this tick-the-box input-based crappola. It reads like they want to be able to prosecute anyone at any time, so put a lot of detailed requirements the average person will not keep documentation on - where are your dog feeding receptacles and disinfectants stored? dogs in house? - where is your last carpet cleaning receipt? why wasn't your dietary plan reviewed and signed of by a vet according to schedule? It's rubbish governance, anal-retentive, inefficent and ineffective.

My question is - how is it going to be policed?

This could be a great job creation scheme LOL as it might need an army of people to do all the checking of paperwork!

And wait - the breeders will have to pay for it, licence fee and inspection fees, courses, paperwork, there will be requirements that an inspector must be able to park their car within a certain distance of the premises, there will be requirements for desinfection, record keeping for water treatment.

I could go on and on.........

Thats on top of the vet piece.

[Steve]

They also say that zoonotic diseases are low risk yet we have to do the craziest stuff ever in case someone somewhere might muck it up.

I don't believe we have have an adequate time frame to assess whether the latest amendments to the code are needing to be given such heavy handed regulations on top of what we already have.

[Steve]

I agree its VERY bad regulation - best practice is much more about outcome-based regulation, customer focus and cost-effective compliance. Not this tick-the-box input-based crappola. It reads like they want to be able to prosecute anyone at any time, so put a lot of detailed requirements the average person will not keep documentation on - where are your dog feeding receptacles and disinfectants stored? dogs in house? - where is your last carpet cleaning receipt? why wasn't your dietary plan reviewed and signed of by a vet according to schedule? It's rubbish governance, anal-retentive, inefficent and ineffective.

My question is - how is it going to be policed?

This could be a great job creation scheme LOL as it might need an army of people to do all the checking of paperwork!

And wait - the breeders will have to pay for it, licence fee and inspection fees, courses, paperwork, there will be requirements that an inspector must be able to park their car within a certain distance of the premises, there will be requirements for desinfection, record keeping for water treatment.

I could go on and on.........

Thats on top of the vet piece.

They don't need to police it any different because each year when your licence falls due you have to pass the ticks - if you don't have all the records and if you cant show you have done what is in the code they don't renew it .

One complaint or one person who doesn.t like you and they review what you are doing sooner - easier to stitch you up if animals australia happen to have a video of you giving your dog chicken frames without a bowl.

[BlackJaq]

God help you if you are giving liver without a bowl, that's a double whammy.. Sorry but I honestly can't this stuff seriously anymore. It would be funny if it wasn't so potentially devastating....

Edited May 10, 2013 by BlackJaq

[minimax]

Food must be provided in sufficient quantity and nutritional quality; where the food is canine appropriate and scientifically balanced, to meet the daily requirements for the condition and size of the animal.

Minimum quantity and nutritional quality of feed must be detailed within the health plan developed in conjunction with, and signed off by, a veterinarian for each classification of dog in the Business.

This could be read as that you are not allowed to feed natural diet.

And if your vet is not pro raw you are screwed.

So if they tell you to feed 3 cups of dried food and your dog puts on weight you cant really limit the food, right? And it will only be changed when you get your 6monthly inspection from the vet?

I might be wrong, there was so much of it that Ive now forgotten some of the completly rediculous things in there.

And yeah - I must have my carpets shampooed every 6 months if my dogs come inside.

The argument could be made that dry food isn't canine appropriate - if you define canine appropriate as how dogs are "designed" to eat (and I doubt anyone can argue they were designed to eat processed dry pellets lol)

[JRzipper]

There is not a large amount of online submissions shown, hopefully there are a few more hard copies going in. The working dog people have been very active from what I read.

I've been working hard to get my online submission completed but keep getting the following message

"A Database Error Occurred

Error Number: 1366

Incorrect string value: '\x80\x9Cfact...' for column 'answer' at row 1"

Is anyone else getting this?

Yes, I put in a submission and kept getting this message. After a bit of head scratching, I worked out that it doesn't accept grammatical symbols such as apostrophes. Not sure why, but when I took them out, the program accepted them.

JK

[4Kelpies]

There is not a large amount of online submissions shown, hopefully there are a few more hard copies going in. The working dog people have been very active from what I read.

I've been working hard to get my online submission completed but keep getting the following message

"A Database Error Occurred

Error Number: 1366

Incorrect string value: '\x80\x9Cfact...' for column 'answer' at row 1"

Is anyone else getting this?

Yes, I put in a submission and kept getting this message. After a bit of head scratching, I worked out that it doesn't accept grammatical symbols such as apostrophes. Not sure why, but when I took them out, the program accepted them.

JK

Thank you. I'll try again.

[Steve]

This paragraph in the introduction would appear to be showing that the intent of this code is to cut down on the numbers of breeders and the numbers of puppies being bred rather than increasing the welfare of breeding dogs. If that is the intent then unless they do something about the demand there isnt a hope in hell they will reduce the numbers being bred.its not up to a government department to devise ways of running us out of our hobbies or businesses. Victoria is now the easiest place in Australia to buy a puppy its a quick click and pay for the big kennels and the puppy arrives a couple of days later. Quick email with the necessary mandatory paper work with no questions asked.

Quote.

In any case,both the RSPCA and the activist group known as Oscar's law have run substantialmedia campaigns over the last 3 years - yet the problems identified in this RISremain. These campaigns have had considerable mass media attention. The'Oscar's Law' campaign has had some very high profile celebrity supportinternationally and within Victoria. It has hosted simultaneous public ralliesin several states of Australia, the most recent being on the 16th of September2012 - that have attracted wide media attention. Despite this, neither campaignhas been successful in reducing the number of breeding establishments, nor havethey reduced the number of puppies purchased from breeding establishments orpet shops.

We are also told that the SCIENTIFIC research shows that

It is not viable to consider an option allowing for more than 5 litters per breeding female. Scientific Research recommends that:

• bitches should not be bred before they are physically mature and should not be bred on their first oestrus cycle;
• bitches should not produce more than five litters or be bred beyond the critical age for dogs of their breed, as defined by body size;

Does anyone know of any scientific research to back this up ? Where is this research which shows it is bad for a bitch to be bred past a certain age for her body size regardless of her health or qualities? Can any one find this? Where is the scientific research which shows that a bitch should not be bred on her first season even if that season doesn't happen until she is well over 12 months regardless of age - regardless of breed?

How on earth would a government know if a bitch has already had her first season. There sure is going to be a lot of dodgy record keeping.

Why not have two bitches -one which passes the tests and gets a tick from the vet and breed the other which is too young, too old, had too many litters or is too cranky or itchy or too closely related at the same time - say the bitch that's been given the tick had 8 in her litter instead of 4. With a couple of hundred bitches who would know if you simply passed the puppies around the bitches?

If anyone gets busted for throwing out chicken frames all you have to do is say its not the main meal of the day which of course you always feed in a bowl when no one else is watching and of course the liver in the fridge is for lambs fry and bacon for dinner tonight not the dogs.

[JRG]

I have read the reference they cite and it is a review of literature not hard "evidence" backed up by good research

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I agree its VERY bad regulation - best practice is much more about outcome-based regulation, customer focus and cost-effective compliance. Not this tick-the-box input-based crappola. It reads like they want to be able to prosecute anyone at any time, so put a lot of detailed requirements the average person will not keep documentation on - where are your dog feeding receptacles and disinfectants stored? dogs in house? - where is your last carpet cleaning receipt? why wasn't your dietary plan reviewed and signed of by a vet according to schedule? It's rubbish governance, anal-retentive, inefficent and ineffective.

OK Victorians, you should work through this material, if you haven't already:

http://www.dtf.vic.gov.au/CA25713E0002EF43/pages/reducing-red-tape-on-business-and-the-community

And NSW people, I've had a look through this already, but for meetings with your local members:

http://www.betterregulation.nsw.gov.au/gatekeeping

[Steve]

the NSW one in the main is way off being law as most of it needs to go through parliament to come in but the Victorian one is simply and amendment to the current codes which they can do over night without any other process.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

the NSW one in the main is way off being law as most of it needs to go through parliament to come in but the Victorian one is simply and amendment to the current codes which they can do over night without any other process.

Gives people a framework to complain about it tho'. Has anyone (like DogsVic) submitted the legal framework for breeding as an example of red tape?

[Are You Serious Jo]

I have read the reference they cite and it is a review of literature not hard "evidence" backed up by good research

Have you got a link for the review, who authored it? Is it peer reviewed?

[Steve]

I have read the reference they cite and it is a review of literature not hard "evidence" backed up by good research

Have you got a link for the review, who authored it? Is it peer reviewed?

From what I can see they haven't cited any studies at all in regard to this and have simply said "scientific research" .

It doesnt exist because its all based on animal rights crap thats been pushed until everyone believes it.

If you talk to breeders and vets who were around before the crap started who bred animals and treated them when they were in good health and were not restricted in age or frequency etc they will tell you that their scientific research shows that its a crock and a government shouldn't be interfering in how we manage our breeding programs based on animal rights propaganda.

What if a bitch is the last of a line etc - and they already have it covered anyway by saying you cant breed her till she is examined and declared fit to breed. Why do they also need to have the other restrictions on?

[butterup]

my friend just bought a puppy from a big kennel in victoria.she paid her money no questions asked and she got the pup in two days flown into NSW.

they dont have any permit numbers or microchip numbers in the advertisements or on their website where they list puppies available. they dont vaccinate with kennel cough only C3.

why make more laws if they still dont police the ones they have. if a big kennel like this can get away with it then it must be pretty easy for everyone to do it.why bother.

i can pm the link to the kennel.

[Steve]

Why bother indeed - in their own words would appear they are simply trying to shut us down.

Despite this, neither campaign has been successful in reducing the number of breeding establishments, nor have they reduced the number of puppies purchased from breeding establishments or pet shops.

[Steve]

By the way this code is for rearing establishments as well as breeding so if you are a rescue group who takes in pregnant animals - you're it too.

[mita]

I found the section on management of dogs also troubling.

First, there's no understanding of the critical role of early socialization in laying a foundation for a puppy to develop as a companion dog.

Scroll down & look at the schedule set out. Environmental items & exercise get headings for puppies 0-16 weeks. But there's only a passing reference to specific human interaction... & it only says 'can include' (rather than 'must include)

'. That scenario fits classic puppy farming.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/pets/about-pets/breeding-and-rearing-code-review-public-comment/draft-proposed-revised-code/management-of-dogs

Also for older pups, the Code says:

"Every dog over 4 months must be removed from their pen a minimum of twice a week for the purpose of handling, socialization, enrichment or exercise."

1. Why does handling by humans & socialization only become important after 4 months?

When, according to the Unversity of Qld (Vet Connect, 2008):

'If puppies have not been socialized with people before 14 weeks of age, they are unable for form normal attachments with people.'

2. Why is the minumum for release from pen for handling, socialization & exercise a mere twice a week?

I could be wrong, but would seem to contravene Q'ld cruelty laws.

Again, this scenario also seems to fit puppy farming.

Edited May 11, 2013 by mita