Should There Be Restrictions On Junior Handlers

[Trisven13]

Following Haredown Whippet's comments earlier that the more junior junior handlers should be restricted to showing neuters what are your views and why?

I have a daughter who is 8 next weekend who has been handling in the breed line-up from her 7th birthday (literally as she turned 7 on the day of a show) and she loves it so I have a very different view to HW on this. A day at a dog show, showing her pup, is preferable to a birthday party, to netball, to a school camp etc. We don't have many shows which offer true junior handler competitions and we have no junior handling classes within 3-4 hours of our house. If she was unable to show at breed level she would be unable to show very often at all, far, far less than she currently can.

[Rottshowgirl]

I love seeing the littlies involved and have been involved in organising of junior events in a number of ways.

My only issue is when a junior is handling a dog that is clearly of far superior physical strength, that CAN pose a safety issue on occasion. It's up to the parents/ carers to determine which dogs are suitable, but some parents are so blinded by little Timmy's natural ability that they can forget about the limitations of Timmy's actual strength.

Having said that, there are lots of adults showing dogs who if the dog took a fly at something, would have no hope of holding it either.

As for ability, there are some adults who pose a safety risk through their handling skills, so let's not single out the kiddies for that ;)

I'm all for kids being involved, firmly believe in their involvement as succession planning and hope that my little ones show an interest one day too :)

[Rebanne]

I'd like to know why a neutered dog would be safer?

[Salukifan]

I'd like to know why a neutered dog would be safer?

Because generally speaking, it would be less likely to behave aggressively towards other dogs of its gender. Double that up for stud dogs.

I expressed my views as to the "why"s" of why I'd like to see some restrictions on the 7-10 year olds in the other thread.

If we allow children to exhibit any breed and we cannot guarantee control or supervision, it seems to me that some restriction would be warranted.

I don't honestly expect anything to change but I do think very young children in the main, have neither the foresight, nor the control of adults and yet we are placing them in situations where that is exactly what we require them to demonstrate.

ETA: here's my other post

None. Junior Handlers have won classes using my dogs though. :)

How many young children have I watched drag exhausted or unhappy dogs and pups around at shows?. Several. How many times have I felt obliged to intervene for the safety of the dog? One, so far.

How many large dogs under the 'control' of a child have attacked mine? One so far. How many incidents involving unsupervised children with dogs creating aggression issues have I witnessed? Several more.

I don't expect my views on children being responsible for dogs to be popular or influential but I do have concerns. I support junior handler classes but I want them to be conducted with safety of children, dogs and bystanders paramount.,

One thing that it might pay to bear in mind is that a child handling a dog in an "adult" pursuit (think breed ring) can be held to to an adult standard of care for their actions. I don't find the idea of a 7 year old being legally liable for a dog bite on a member of the public all that ideal really.

No doubt nothing's going to change...... but I still have an opinion. That opinion is that very young children should not be expected to control dogs or demonstrate an adult's foresight when handling dogs unsupervised amongst the public.

FYI the youngest a child can handle a dog in ANKC Agility is 11. Are there children younger than that capable of doing it? Absolutely.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Trisven13]

I'd like to know why a neutered dog would be safer?

Yeah that is the part I don't understand either. Neutering doesn't make a dog easier to handle, less likely to be aggressive or anything else that I can think of, it simply renders it unable to procreate.

I actually see children in junior handlers showing dogs they are less able to control more frequently than I do in the breed judging. Most children I see who are handling in breed judging are handling their own dogs and often alongside their parents.

[Salukifan]

I'd like to know why a neutered dog would be safer?

Yeah that is the part I don't understand either. Neutering doesn't make a dog easier to handle, less likely to be aggressive or anything else that I can think of, it simply renders it unable to procreate.

I actually see children in junior handlers showing dogs they are less able to control more frequently than I do in the breed judging. Most children I see who are handling in breed judging are handling their own dogs and often alongside their parents.

Do you think that's acceptable for other handlers/dogs in the class?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Trisven13]

Do you think that's acceptable for other handlers/dogs in the class?

No but that is surely a consideration for the Judge of the junior handler's comp, the owner of the dog being shown in junior handlers and the parent of the child (as it is junior handler comps where I have seen the problem).

I don't think it can be restricted to breed or even size of dog because it is such an individual dog thing - some toy breeds will be more narky than some giant breeds, some terriers more narky than gundogs etc. I also don't see how restricting age of the handler helps because age and size is no indicator of experience or ability.

[Salukifan]

Tangential thought: should dogs be tested and certified as "junior handler dogs"???

EG. a dog that has been used for a certain number of 10-13 comps is then "certified" as suitable for the 7-10 year olds. Just brain storming...

Edited April 29, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Dogsfevr]

Judges have the right to excuse a junior from the ring if they deem the dog not suitable ,the stewards & organizer also should stand in .

I have been involved in juniors since 84 & i have judged 3 State Finals & never had any issues with the younger class.

All amazing handlers with skills beyond there years .

As for spayed dogs being any safer ,i think we all now the answer there .

As far as im aware a spayed mains neuter dog can be used in juniors (must be on that register so the option is already there ) but to make it a requirement is silly.

I started as an under 10 yr old & used my own dog ,entire ,That would mean having to buy a second dog to spay or spay what you have just for a child to compete because i can tell you now there would never be enough suitable spayed dogs out there & the kids take great pride in there State finals often training all year with there own dogs to show ,to be told they need a spayed dog would leave many unable to compete & that would simply kill the excitement these kids have .

If kids are using unsuitable dogs then people need to tell the those in charge .

In all the years i have never witnessed one ring issue in juniors plenty with adults though .

Edited April 29, 2013 by showdog

[Salukifan]

Judges have the right to excuse a junior from the ring if they deem the dog not suitable ,the stewards & organizer also should stand in .

I have been involved in juniors since 84 & i have judged 3 State Finals & never had any issues with the younger class.

All amazing handlers with skills beyond there years .

As for spayed dogs being any safer ,i think we all now the answer there .

As far as im aware a spayed mains neuter dog can be used in juniors (must be on that register so the option is already there ) but to make it a requirement is silly.

I started as an under 10 yr old & used my own dog ,entire ,That would mean having to buy a second dog to spay or spay what you have just for a child to compete because i can tell you now there would never be enough suitable spayed dogs out there & the kids take great pride in there State finals often training all year with there own dogs to show ,to be told they need a spayed dog would leave many unable to compete & that would simply kill the excitement these kids have .

If kids are using unsuitable dogs then people need to tell the those in charge .

In all the years i have never witnessed one ring issue in juniors plenty with adults though .

Or you'd have had to borrow one, as quite a few kids do now. And isn't experience with handling different dogs what wins the big Junior Handler prizes? I like it when JH judges put up the kids who are having to work to get the dog to show, rather than going in with the push button dog they show every time.

Sometimes I wonder if JH classes wouldn't be better judged in categories of experience, not age. Its a hard ask to ask a starter to compete against kids who've been doing it for years. Some of the more experienced kids are pretty hard core.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Dogsfevr]

[quote name='Haredown Whippets' timestamp='1367217499' post='6188352'

Or you'd have had to borrow one, as quite a few kids do now. And isn't experience with handling different dogs what wins the big Junior Handler prizes? I like it when JH judges put up the kids who are having to work to get the dog to show, rather than going in with the push button dog they show every time.

Sometimes I wonder if JH classes wouldn't be better judged in categories of experience, not age. Its a hard ask to ask a starter to compete against kids who've been doing it for years.

Problem is many people perceive a push button dog as easy when many haven't shown the dog themselves.

Judges do reward kids but you also have rules & you have to weigh up the pros * cons .

But where will all these spayed dogs or varying breeds come from??

Juniors still need to take a trained dog in that is common snese but it still takes a good trainer to work it.

If most of these spayed dogs are owned by novice owners then isn't that still asking for trouble ??

Our spayed dog was booked for the year by juniors (little class because he was well trained & a special dog for the little kids) & even learner juniors need to start with robots sometimes to build ring experince & confidence before branching out ,no point sending a learber in with an untrained dog to battle away

I competed in an era of amazing handlers i would hated to have been separated the competition made you work harder .We all have to learn to win & lose .

But the reality is good stable junior dogs are entire .

My dog was used last year in a finals & the handler worked for many months with him whilst he was a well trained dog it still took a great handler to bring out that magic & work as a team .

many juniors get accused of taking in robots & often by people that have never shown that dog before & making judgements from what they see in the ring

Good handlers can make good dogs look great

Bad handlers can make great dogs look bad

I also now of juniors who have picked dogs thinking it was a "robot" & learning very quickly what handling is all about .

I borrow all my State finals dogs bar one so im well aware of borrowing but juniors still deserve to take in dogs they can show without it being spayed especially when manyalready have there own dogs or use relatives dogs.

Have a good look at the kids competing & most come from a long line of show families with there own dogs .

One of the finals i judged had over 20 7/10 yr olds that is alot of spayed dogs to find that are all suitable

[yarracully]

Personally I am all in favour of juniors. Unfortunately our local shows do not have them so my nephew is always wanting to go away for shows so he can do juniors. Unfortunatley for me I have to reorganise my travel plans to fit him in. We usually take a small bus away to sleep in but it only carries two people so last time we travelled we also had to take a car as well for the three of us. Extra cost for me but I am prepared to spend it if he is prepared to do juniors as this is the future of our hobby.

As for the dogs being handled, surely this is where the parents of the child and the owners of the dog need to step up. If the parents are confident the child can handle the dog and if the owner of the dog is confident the dog can be handled by a small child then they decide. Also they must accept the consequences if anything goes wrong due to a bad decision.

Frankly I would rather be beaten by a junior anyday. They get a buzz out of it and don't show any of the nastiness sometimes seen in those that should be mature enough to know better.

As for a neuter being less aggresive I can say from experince this is not always the case.

[Trisven13]

Tangential thought: should dogs be tested and certified as "junior handler dogs"???

EG. a dog that has been used for a certain number of 10-13 comps is then "certified" as suitable for the 7-10 year olds. Just brain storming...

That could be a solution but I'm still not convinced it is necessary. I just see it as more unnecessary regulation.

[Dogsfevr]

Tangential thought: should dogs be tested and certified as "junior handler dogs"???

EG. a dog that has been used for a certain number of 10-13 comps is then "certified" as suitable for the 7-10 year olds. Just brain storming...

That could be a solution but I'm still not convinced it is necessary. I just see it as more unnecessary regulation.

Good in theory but would still mean not enough dogs & having those dogs at all the shows to be available for all the kids there .If there isn't enough dogs what do you do then .

It is hard enough to find people willing to loan dogs to kids ,often the reason you see the same dogs out there is because those people say yes & even then people will use there judgement & say no to some kids so you could still have a certified dog but no way in hell would you let that child use it.

There are kids here that i would never loan a dog too for various reasons .

If unsuitable dogs are being used then people should talk to the state co ordinater or a committee person to bring it up at events .

I have never seen any disasters ,dogs may have been a handful but still shown & controlled .

Dogs borrowed also have to be able to do T & the other exercises on the wrong side & many dogs will not do this so kids again will look for dogs that are suitable for there age group & the exercises that can be asked & whether the dogs can do it or will do it some will freak out.

At Crufts there are some breeds you cant use in the International finals but thats more to do with stable temps in the big ring ,

I certainly now when looking for swap dogs in state finals it isn't a simple task finding dogs that will go with any child in a pressure situation & lots of crowd noise

[Salukifan]

Have a good look at the kids competing & most come from a long line of show families with there own dogs .

No argument here. How this is going to contribute to "new blood" in the ring is debatable. We need to think outside that square IMO in addition to continuing junior handlers.

In my immediate circle of show buddies, I'd say 3 out of a dozen or so have come up through juniors. Given that's about 25% we need to be thinking about how the other 75% find their way into the fancy, and more importantly, stay there.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Dogsfevr]

No argument here. How this is going to contribute to "new blood" in the ring is debatable. We need to think outside that square IMO in addition to continuing junior handlers.

In my immediate circle of show buddies, I'd say 3 out of a dozen or so have come up through juniors. Given that's about 25% we need to be thinking about how the other 75% find their way into the fancy, and more importantly, stay there.

You have to also ensure you keep what is there ,make it harder for the juniors & why would they bother to stay in the sport .

Many parents don't allow them to handle in the big ring so they hang out for juniors

Turning up to a show relying on a suitable neuter & then relying on a suitable neuter you haven't already won with because the kids can only win so many heats with the same dog.

In some states the dog you handle MUST be entered in the show as well

Limiting dogs won't encourage kids ,it will become all to hard for parents or guardians & then someone has to compile a list of those suitable dogs meeting the requirement to be there on the day .

[SwaY]

Following Haredown Whippet's comments earlier that the more junior junior handlers should be restricted to showing neuters what are your views and why?

I'd like to know why a neutered dog would be safer?

Because generally speaking, it would be less likely to behave aggressively towards other dogs of its gender. Double that up for stud dogs.

I disagree with the less likley to behave aggressively.

I think any handler Adult or Junior should have effective control of the dog.

[Sayly]

I agree that it can be hard enough for a junior to find a suitable dog, especially if they have won a few times, let alone limit that to neuter dogs only. I don't think being neutered automatically makes a dog suitable for handlers, there are plenty that aren't.

My Aussie bitch's backup handler (when I am in ring 2) is a 9 year old who has been handling for approximately 6 months. He has taken out BOBs, classes in group and even a Runner up Best in Group with her. She is a relatively easy dog to show, and is a regular in junior comps. She is certainly more suited than our neuter bitch! The junior is also a very talented junior, who handles some difficult dogs in other breeds, including several difficult terriers and does a fantastic job. I would hate for him to be limited to neutered animals only, he would get bored quickly as there just aren't many out there for him to handle.

What a lovely team they make too! Who wants to tell this kid he can't show his Holly-Dog anymore? :p

I hate seeing kids in the ring with dogs they are not equipped to handle, it does nothing for the dog or the child, however its not something I have seen very often. There are quite a few young (>10years) handlers here in SA at the moment, showing dogs in both breed and handler comps and are doing fantastic jobs with SUITABLE dogs.

It should be common sense. I don't think putting another rule, which will only make it harder, in is going to do anything for keeping the juniors involved.

[SwaY]

I would rather a rule about people having to wear suitable clothing (strapping those puppies in), rather then limiting the junior handlers....

[puppy_dawgs]

if it aint broke, dont fix it??

i dont know that there is a problem with juniors handling entire dogs, or am i missing something?