Super Weaver At Training, But Not In Trials

[sheena]

Ok...take the case of a novice dog with heaps of drive & enthusiasm & his biggest reward is to be able to continue the course. At home he is 99% proofed with the weaves at lots of angles, distractions etc. At group training he is about 80% with same. But put him in a trial & he will just run past the weaves as if he hasn't seen them. If he does enter, its hit a few, miss a few, then get on with the next obstacle.

Question is, what would you do in this situation. I tend towards making him come back & try the weaves again, probably only once, as I feel he is self rewarding by letting him continue the course. But then I think I might be damaging his enthusiasm (hard to imagine) by doing this & eventually it might lead to him shutting down on the weaves & running them slow. I always made my first dog come back & do them again & now she is a slow as a wet weekend in the weaves (only at trials) & wonder if I have caused it. Understandably I don't want to make the same mistake again,(if indeed it was) but can't help thinking that to let him disregard the weaves in trials could be self rewarding.

I would be interested to know what others do as it is not uncommon, but unfortunately because it only happens at trials it is difficult to train otherwise...& of course no training allowed in the ring.

Edited April 20, 2013 by sheena

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

For some reason the weaves do not have the same value at training/trials as they do at home.

I'd consider not entering weave courses at trials - but go, set some weaves up at the back or nearby - and practice increasing the value.

I don't make my dog do weaves again from the beginning if she stuffs them. She's not that fantastic but she does have good value for them - will offer up running around poles, but doesn't quite get the whole picture yet.

I know quite a few people - who will leave the course walking if their dog stuffs up something the handler knows the dog can do well. And at least one of these is our best dog hander combo. And I think Susan Garrett will leave the course if and only if she's confident that the dog knows how to do the task that was stuffed - properly - and doing the obstacle incorrectly will be encouraged by continuing on course. Mostly - she will just work on the holes at the next training opportunity.

Personally as a novice handler - I need all the practice I can get - so I don't fuss too much one way or the other if my dog stuffs up. she does know tho - cos when she gets it right - I say "yes" and when she stuffs it, I don't say anything or I say "what was that?" or "silly dog" in a light tone. The rest of the course can go to hell at this point anyway cos she gets frustrated and starts barking and stops paying attention.

I don't make her do it over from the beginning cos that just incorporates the crapness into the weaves or whatever.

I think you need more proofing in more places and more joy so the dog gets the idea that weaves are weaves where ever they are.

[sheena]

The weave poles are the ONLY thing I would consider redoing in a trial...anything else & I would just keep running as even the slightest hesitation can make them shut down or get frustrated & 9/10 it would be handler error anyway. Strangely, we set up practise weave poles amongst all the action at trials & he does them perfectly...little bugger :laugh: Its a very common problem :) just interested to know how others handle it...pop them back into the weaves or continue on ??

[Chezy]

do you get nervous , maybe it is your prob not his

I know I still get nerves when I line up

Edited April 20, 2013 by Chezy

[J...]

& of course no training allowed in the ring.

You can if you're willing to throw some $$ down the chute. Been there, done that.

I had trouble with Zee weaving in trials for ages, weaves fine at home, fine at club training, fine at our usual few training spots but not at a trial. I put it down to arousal levels, if she wasn't "high" then she didn't weave.

I spent probably a month or two picking the judges I entered under, picked those that I knew would be ok providing I didn't take advantage. I always let them know what I was up to before hand and everyone of them said "what are you telling me for? Just do it"

I tugged her into the ring (instant DQ in most cases, once again a few turned a blind eye) picked the closest and cleanest path I could find to the weavers, got her to weave and ran out of the ring as fast as possible to reward her. Because I didn't waste anyone's time then no-one had any issue with it.

The other thing I would work on is go back to proofing your weaves for every situation you can think of at home/training and out and about. Can you run the opposite way while the dog weaves? Throw toys, squeak toys, drop meaty bones, run at a 90 degree angle laterally while the dog is weaving? Play tug with your other dog? WIll they weave while you sit, fall over, lay down, do star jumps, anything and everything you can think of in order to proof the weaves and entries at home. The advantage of doing all of this is that you're not only working on proofing, but layering some pretty awesome value for the weaves too.

[Chezy]

a lot of people join adaa so they can take toys in and work on problems that are only trial problems

[sheena]

a lot of people join adaa so they can take toys in and work on problems that are only trial problems

Yeah...I wish ANKC had NFC. Unfortunately the only ADAA event we get to go to is the Grand Prix once a year. One of the ANKC judges we had last weekend was a real sour puss & everytime we looked like re-attempting the weaves, she got up us With my older dog who has just gone up into Masters & shuts down easily, this judge set a really hard jumping course for the first run of the day. I left her standing there, open mouthed, when I took my girl in & just did a really fun run around the outside jumps with a couple of loops & tunnels in between. I didn't even stop to hear what she was saying to me, but I can imagine she thought I was a real goose. :laugh: but my dog had fun :) I am going to do more of that in future. If I pay good money for the chance to run, then I should be able to do what I like within the set time If we are going to get DQ'd anyway why not make it a FUN DQ.

Edited April 20, 2013 by sheena

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think it depends on the judge and other contestants. I was lead steward for two different judges recently and there was quite a bit of training in the ring. And at least one person asked permission before going on with it - mostly because the third obstacle or about there on all the courses, (2 agility, 2 jumping all ANKC masters level) were massive traps and heaps of dogs tunnel sucked, and a couple of dogs jumped the tunnel in one course.

It was generally put down to lack of practice - ie not many trials or training because of bad weather before that trial. We were averaging 40 to 60 dogs per course, and only 4 passes if that. It was hard.

A lot of handlers elected to do some random training or try to complete the course, with varying results.

And a few just left the second something when wrong (and these were among those who got the passes on other runs).

Nobody complained - and most who elected to train - endeavoured not to waste time doing it - ie stick to the original course time.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Chezy]

I say can a make them do xxxx and then I will go out , I dont waste time then finish the course , i will find the fastest exit via jumps and leave after i made the dog redo something , most judges are ok with this , esp if you get out fast , but dont do it over and over as that is annoying and wates time , not many will allow that

[J...]

When I went back through Novice with my almost 4 yo I was horrified at how many novice triallers seemed to miss the Trialling basics 101 briefing. Many took up well over the SCT if not double in one way or another, especially in agility.

I figure that if I can get in, train what I want to train without being disrespectful, and get the hell out, I'm still doing far better than many of the novices and often using up significantly less than the SCT anyway.

[Vickie]

Difficult to say without seeing the dog. When you put him back in at a trial does he do them perfectly? Or does he still fail?

Are your home & training weaves the same as trial weaves? Lots of dogs learn on flexible poles & then do not like the rigid poles that trials have.

If his biggest reward is truly to continue the course then that is a problem that I would work on first and the weave issue should resolve itself. Does he hold contacts in trials? Startlines? Is he taking off course tunnels? If the answer to all of these is no, then I suspect it's a weave issue, rather than him finding the course more rewarding.

My approach to things like this is always to break them in training first. You need to get him hyped enough in training that he blows the weaves. Then you can provide consequences that you can use in a trial. Those consequences really depend on the drive & temperament of the dog.

I have successfully worked through this exact issue with someone's dog and what worked for her was to remove her from the ring (without any emotion whatsoever) if she refused to attempt the weaves. We did it in training first so she knew what to expect. It only took a couple of trials to fix & she was weaving full speed in the ring.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Vickie

[sheena]

Difficult to say without seeing the dog. When you put him back in at a trial does he do them perfectly? Or does he still fail?

Are your home & training weaves the same as trial weaves? Lots of dogs learn on flexible poles & then do not like the rigid poles that trials have.

If his biggest reward is truly to continue the course then that is a problem that I would work on first and the weave issue should resolve itself. Does he hold contacts in trials? Startlines? Is he taking off course tunnels? If the answer to all of these is no, then I suspect it's a weave issue, rather than him finding the course more rewarding.

My approach to things like this is always to break them in training first. You need to get him hyped enough in training that he blows the weaves. Then you can provide consequences that you can use in a trial. Those consequences really depend on the drive & temperament of the dog.

I have successfully worked through this exact issue with someone's dog and what worked for her was to remove her from the ring (without any emotion whatsoever) if she refused to attempt the weaves. We did it in training first so she knew what to expect. It only took a couple of trials to fix & she was weaving full speed in the ring.

Some good food for thought there, Vickie :) My OH handles him most of the time at trials & he is reluctant to make him do the weaves again & lets him run on. He handles better for me, probably because I am less inclined to allow him to be naughty (cause thats what I think he is doing). I bring him back for another go & he does them better but still pops out. I don't do it again as I think I am taking up precious judges time.

We have both sets of poles at home & of course the ones we use at training nights are the competition ones.

He does lovely running A-frames but will often run straight past the dog walk (OH lets him continue, I bring him back)

At training tonight I will try what you did, get him hyped up then if he stuffs up, put him straight back on the lead. I must add also, that the weave poles are one of his favourite obstacles in training...so hopefully that might jolt his puppy brain into action :laugh:

ETA...his start lines in trials are not as good as they used to be. He creeps forward, never breaks, just creeps forward. We have been doing a lot of work on those at home, so tonight at training, so as not to set him up to fail, I will hold him gently by the collar while his handler leads out, then gradually fade my presence. He is doing well in the Jumping & got his Novice Title :)

Edited April 22, 2013 by sheena

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Start line creeps?

For my dog the biggest reward she can get on a start line stay (course or no course) is the release so we practice stay and release anywhere I can get off lead time with her.

And I make every effort to fake her out. And if she breaks (moves any paw) I laugh at her, go back collar grab and walk her in a small circle, put her back where she was, and try again.

Next challenge in faking out will be release when I run past her from behind - chances are she will go as soon as I start running or get level with her - so that's just a way to up the challenge and understanding.

One thing that really doesn't help our start lines - is going back and rewarding with food. She seems a bit miffed by this cos I think she'd rather run and chase me.

[sheena]

We didn't get to do start lines at club training tonight...but he did AWESOME weaves. Ran past the first time, took him back & he was right from there on.

[Agility Dogs]

We didn't get to do start lines at club training tonight...but he did AWESOME weaves. Ran past the first time, took him back & he was right from there on.

Just a thought - when you take him back does he have to enter the weaves at the same speed he would have had to if he didn't run past them?

Is it easier to do it without speed built in?

[sheena]

We didn't get to do start lines at club training tonight...but he did AWESOME weaves. Ran past the first time, took him back & he was right from there on.

Just a thought - when you take him back does he have to enter the weaves at the same speed he would have had to if he didn't run past them?

Is it easier to do it without speed built in?

Definately easier without speed...at home & in training we can get him to collect, but in a trial, he is just so excited he just runs straight past as if he is impatient to get to the next obstacle. Obviously, he is only young & a novice dog & when he matures a bit things will improve, we just don't want to do anything which will either dampen his enthusiasm for the game or inadvertently reward him for being silly.

[The Spotted Devil]

My Em has a similar problem but with her I think it's that there is so much going on at an agility trial that she gets a bit anxious and struggles to concentrate. To counter this I'm strengthening her pre-trial routine. I've also discovered that I handle her differently in trials - in addition my idea of "supporting" is her idea of "crowding" and "pressure". She needs space to find her entries and concentrate so I am learning to get out of the way. On Monday night I backchained the weaves which seemed to be very effective - they were in the middle of the course but I used them as the last piece of equipment. Added a few jumps each time so she was driving towards the weaves as a focal point.

[corvus]

When arousal is high an animals' focus tends to narrow. On the plus side, this means they are hard to distract. On the downside, it means they might not want to or even be able to do something that requires them to slow down and concentrate. Running right past kind of suggests an elephant-in-the-room syndrome. Another thing dogs do is avoid looking at things they don't want to engage with. Taking jumps doesn't really require engagement. They can do it without thinking. Weaves may be a different beast. There are exercises in Control Unleashed aimed at helping dogs think through their arousal.

[megan_]

What CU game is that? Dogs ate the index of my book so it is hard to look them up :-)

[The Spotted Devil]

Sorry megan but I found that very funny :laugh: Bless them.