Frustration.

[miss2]

Last night at dog school ( agility training) my boy spud behaved very out of character. He displayed on lead aggression with 3 different dogs. One minute they are happily sniffing and play is starting and the next, he cracks it! growling, snarling, hackles up.

Some back ground on spud.

Spud is a 14 month old de-sexed jack Russell. He has been socialised at every possible opportunity with both people and dogs.

He has been to puppy school, teenage school obedience class and now agility.

Spuds favourite thing in the world is playing with other dogs, he LOVES dogs and would pick them over me to play with at any time.

Spud spends time monthly with our family’s dogs which consist of Labradors, heelers and schnauzers. He gets along perfectly with everyone and has never had an issue with these dogs or any other random ones he meets on the street.

Spud has been doing this training class with these dogs for 6 weeks now and has never had a problem with any of the dogs up until last night.

After it happened the third time I burst into tears. I feel upset and frustrated, I feel like we have done everything possible to bring him up in the right way, ensured he has been socialised etc. and now I’m met with a potential lead aggressive dog.

Clearly he was feeling uncomfortable with those other dogs and he reacted badly to them rather then just walking away but I don’t understand why he is doing this behaviour now. He is an adolescent male I guess…..

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I just needed to vent as I’m a little frustrated and upset

[Weasels]

If it really was just this one time, it could be as simple as he had a headache or needed to poop. Don't beat yourself up just yet!

[sheena]

At our school we have a "3 second meet & greet" rule. ie. the dogs are allowed 3 seconds with the other dog...theory is that after 3 seconds, they will either start to play or feel threatened. My young BC guy @ about the same age as your guy, was fine when he started agility group lessons until one dog in particular...an ACD, joined the class & gave out very unfriendly vibes which escalated into lunging at him & after that my guy doesn't trust anybody. Generally I dont allow my dogs to "play" with other dogs...they have each other. & I don't allow other dogs to get in their face either. I find JR's in general a bit unfriendly towards my dogs which are BC's...probably because BC's tend to stare. When dogs are on lead, they feel very vunerable & when they stretch out on the lead, because of the lead, it puts them into an agressive pose & other dogs misread their body language. Off lead, most dogs are completely different. :)

[tdierikx]

I'd probably give Spud a vet check, just to make sure he's not maybe feeling sore somewhere...

T.

[Kavik]

Agility is a high action sport. Could it be possible that Spud was excited/overstimulated? In such an exciting environment, when the people and dogs are revved up and often running fast and the adrenaline, feelings can run high, and sometimes dogs react when they normally wouldn't in a calmer environment.

I would keep an eye on him and see whether he seems overaroused. It may be that you have to watch him when he gets too excited and not let him visit other dogs until he is a bit calmer.

What do you do to keep his focus on you/engagement/relationship building?

I wouldn't be too stressed out about it.

[shirra]

I'd also recommend a vet visit as I know exactly how you must have felt. Two weeks ago we had just left home for an on-lead walk when Misha spotted a dog being walked 200 metres ahead of us, she went completely ballistic which was totally out of character for her.

I was shocked! I did a 180 and took her home and started to groom her when I noticed that the inside of her floppy ears were red and hot. I went to the vet the next day and it turned out she had yeast infection in both ears.

Her ears are good again and she is back to her normal non-reactive self when on lead.

[miss2]

Thanks everyone.

hopefully he was just having a bad day. one of the dogs was very in his face so that must have annoyed him.

I have made an appointment with the vet for him for next week, a check up just in case can never hurt!

Sheena, I like the 3 second rule.

I guess I’m worried about having to correct this behaviour. I don’t want him to associate getting a correction with greeting other dogs. would he have the intelligence to be able to differentiate that the correction is only when he displays the behaviour rather then when he does a nice friendly meet and greet?

Kavik, spud and I usually have to spend 5 minutes outside the training prior to going in so I can get his attention focussed on me. He squeaks and whines and pulls and pulls as soon as he sees where we are.

I correct him as I have been taught until he calms down enough to heel as we walk.

Relationship building/focus on me I find I really have to work hard for that. I use treat motivation and my voice. He responds well to positive praise and gets very excited and happy with him self when he receives this. I would welcome ANY tips on improving our bond.

At class nearly all the other dogs are so focused on there owners/handlers and would do anything to please them. I feel like spud is only sitting with me because he has to lol

Spud is a very independent dog. when I come home of an afternoon he gives me a brief crazy hello and then continues what he was doing. He would much rather sit outside and stare at the tree where he knows the rats are then come and sit inside with me. He is very intent on hunting ( we don’t hunt with him but all he wants to do is hunt mice, rats and rabbits), obviously from his breed .

He really is a dream when playing off lead. If he’s not just having an off day, does anyone know why this behaviour has come on so suddenly??

Here’s to hoping I’m just being an over reactive mother

[DeltaCharlie]

Are there dogs getting in his face every week? Perhaps he has just had enough of them and has decided to put a stop to it. I don't allow anyone to bring their dogs up to mine at training. They are there to work, not to be subjected to the attention of other dogs. They have their time to socialise, and they have their time to work- the 2 don't mix.

I find it particularly with dogs who really enjoy agility, regardless of how experienced or new to the sport they are. They can be the friendliest dogs in the world but once they are around the equipment, at either training or a trial, they switch into working mode and don't allow other dogs to play during that time, and don't appreciate others getting into their face. Once they switch back out of that they will happily interact with the dogs around them.

[megan_]

As DC said, it could be him finally snapping and saying "give me space". Also, there tend to be a lot of herding breeds in agility and if they stare this can really set some dogs off (as it can be taken as a predatory stare).

Agility is our time and I don't let other dogs say hello to mine when we play agility. Why? Because I want my dogs to see agility as a fun time with me (and we have lots of fun), not a time to run off and play with other dogs. As others have said, perfectly happy dogs can become very aroused and reactive when around the equipment.

It is my job to ensure my dogs have plenty of space and other dogs don't get in their face. If this means that some people think I'm a bitch for not letting their dog jump on my dog then so be it.

If the reactivity isn't just a once off, then I'd suggest a *proper* behaviourist visit is in order. You could also try something like "Look at That" (aka LAT) which will help him remain calm around exciting things. If you search this forum you'll find plenty of info on it.

Re: your comments about socialisation, it is often a misunderstood term. In dog terms, it doesn't mean meeting and greeting every dog they meet (as if the other dog is rude it can provoke a reaction in your dog). Rather, it is about learning to behave appropriately around other dogs. For my dogs, this means ignoring other dogs when we're training. Because I use motivational methods with them and they value working with me highly, this is easy to do.

If Spud was my dog I'd do more me = fun work and give him less unrestricted "everything else is more fun than me" play time with other dogs. I'm not suggesting that he never plays with other dogs, but rather that he learns there is a time and place for that. I'd also teach him LAT because it is a great tool to help your dog remain calm around something that excites him. He'd be given some space at class and I wouldn't let other dogs stare at him (I'd just get his attention or turn around).

ETA: Re motivation, have you tried him with a tug? The terriorists often love to "kill" something. Also, how do you deliver your treats? Are you standing still with a dull "good boy", or is it an exciting event?

Edited April 19, 2013 by megan_

[sheena]

Are there dogs getting in his face every week? Perhaps he has just had enough of them and has decided to put a stop to it. I don't allow anyone to bring their dogs up to mine at training. They are there to work, not to be subjected to the attention of other dogs. They have their time to socialise, and they have their time to work- the 2 don't mix.

I find it particularly with dogs who really enjoy agility, regardless of how experienced or new to the sport they are. They can be the friendliest dogs in the world but once they are around the equipment, at either training or a trial, they switch into working mode and don't allow other dogs to play during that time, and don't appreciate others getting into their face. Once they switch back out of that they will happily interact with the dogs around them.

Delta Charlie has said it so well. When they are around something as exciting as agility, they don't want other dogs coming up & getting in their face. Your dog re: the focus on you, sounds very, very normal for a 14 month old pup who is just starting out with all the excitement of learning agility. There are lots of things you could do to get him to focus on you..probably too many to mention here. Have you done any "clicker" work with him ? they love "shaping" games especially when it is done with the clicker...things like targeting, hand touches, look at me, look at that & heaps more. If you can get hold of "The Focused Puppy" by Deborah Jones it would be a good start. We have some great little JR's come to our agility trials. My head instructor has one ATM about the same age as yours & in her own words, he is a right little turd :laugh:

[miss2]

Wow thanks guys! That’s some great advice :)

They are not in his face usually. The dog that he had the first snap at is a very hyperactive friendly dog that the owners do not have a huge amount of control over. He is not aggressive at all just really really excitable. He was on a short leash and kept going on his back legs and put his front paws on spuds face trying to get to him. I’m now thinking that this was the problem and that it set the mood for the rest of the night.

My trainer says we need to teach him to walk away when he is feeling uncomfortable with a situation.

You have pointed out a very valid point that I had not thought about, I need to see training class’s as exactly what they are - TRAINING CLASSES and not socialisation classes.

I need to change my perspective of it and think of it as bonding/ work time for spud and I and not a big gathering of dogs for playing and chatting. I live in a small town and I think people are doing the classes as more of a social outing with there dog thing rather then a want of agility.

Megan, your comment about your dogs value working with you is something that I don’t believe spud does. That is something I would defiantly like to improve on.

When he completes something and gets rewarded I deliver it with a high pitched silly happy voice, usually throw in a lot of whoooo’s and good boys. He also gets a big ‘ rough pat’

I have not tried the tug as a reward, he loves it at home and would spend hours playing with it and grunting while its in his mouth if my arms could handle it.

** note to self, must teach the rat dog that I’m more fun then the other dogs!!**

I have not done any clicker training, will look into it as well as the LAT. Spud works very well with hand signals, sometimes better then a voice command.

Am looking up The Focused Puppy now :D

Talking about your dogs love of agility, this will sound very silly but how do I know if he loves it? I know he Loves it after he completes a course when I give him his super happy praise but does he enjoy what he is doing? I know for a fact that he LOVES the tunnel. If I’m not paying attention to him after class and he sees the tunnel he will run straight at it and spends as long as possible racing in one end and out the other!

Thanks again everyone you have all pointed out something that I really hadn’t though about and that is that training is for us and he does not need to play nor socialise with every dog! any other tips, hints or advice is very appreciated :)

Squeeee I feel a bit better now and have improved my knowledge of my ratdog.

[tdierikx]

Awww... what a cutie!

T.

[Red Fox]

They are not in his face usually. The dog that he had the first snap at is a very hyperactive friendly dog that the owners do not have a huge amount of control over. He is not aggressive at all just really really excitable. He was on a short leash and kept going on his back legs and put his front paws on spuds face trying to get to him. I'm now thinking that this was the problem and that it set the mood for the rest of the night.

The dogs must have been extremely close for this to happen? Too close. You need to create more space between your dog and others.

My trainer says we need to teach him to walk away when he is feeling uncomfortable with a situation.

Your dog should not be put in the above situation in the first place, expecting a dog to just 'walk away' is unrealistic.

Either way, I don't think your dogs behaviour is in any way abnormal given the above situation.

[corvus]

Your dog should not be put in the above situation in the first place, expecting a dog to just 'walk away' is unrealistic.

Not necessarily. You get what you reinforce. If you reinforce walking away, then as long as you're consistent and the dog remains under threshold it's not unrealistic IMO. I accidentally taught Kivi to respond to behaviour from other dogs he found threatening with a formal heel complete with auto-sits. A few months ago a dog unexpectedly and very suddenly went from normal greeting to chasing Kivi and snapping at his face. He yelped, then as soon as he was free he went straight to my left side and sat in heel. The other dog came over to see what we were doing and Kivi just stayed glued in heel and ignored it, even when it stuck its head in my treat bag. It was kinda nerve-wracking as I wasn't entirely sure what had upset the strange dog in the first place, but there's something to be said for the power of consistency. I turned towards the dog to try to discourage it and succeeded in inadvertently putting Kivi face to face with it when he followed in heel and sat when I stopped moving. I didn't think he would be that sticky in heel under the circumstances! Erik is a bit more volatile, but offers LAT instead of noisy driving behaviour in many bothersome situations. It's not much different to walking away. He seems to think if he's between my feet he will be safe and goes there when other dogs worry him. I reinforce it. It's a good place for him to be if he's feeling vulnerable. It's hard for another dog to reach him around my legs and I can easily intervene if I have to. These sorts of things are the cornerstones of programs like Control Unleashed and Behaviour Adjustment Therapy. They work.

[Staffyluv]

At our school we have a "3 second meet & greet" rule. ie. the dogs are allowed 3 seconds with the other dog...theory is that after 3 seconds, they will either start to play or feel threatened. My young BC guy @ about the same age as your guy, was fine when he started agility group lessons until one dog in particular...an ACD, joined the class & gave out very unfriendly vibes which escalated into lunging at him & after that my guy doesn't trust anybody. Generally I dont allow my dogs to "play" with other dogs...they have each other. & I don't allow other dogs to get in their face either. I find JR's in general a bit unfriendly towards my dogs which are BC's...probably because BC's tend to stare. When dogs are on lead, they feel very vunerable & when they stretch out on the lead, because of the lead, it puts them into an agressive pose & other dogs misread their body language. Off lead, most dogs are completely different. :)

I love this..

We use it in our club as well. (After asking if it is OK to say hello).

[BC Crazy]

When Stella & I make it to some form of group training, & we will one day, the 3 second rule would really suit us. Marvellous idea IMHO. On lead

I find she handles quick "hello's" pretty well now as long as it is brief & we move on.

Edited April 20, 2013 by BC Crazy

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think I wouldn't allow meet and greets with dogs (including my own) if they can't manage to keep their lead loose. Ie as soon as my dog's lead goes tight, we turn and walk away until she's paying attention again, and then we retry the approach - a little more slowly so I can pay attention to when she starts to lose it.

The excitable dog could use a bit more impulse control - like being able to hold a sit briefly on a loose lead before being given permission ("say hello" is my command) to greet. And if the greeting is a bit too over the top (on lead) then I walk away taking my dog with me. I might say "too much" to the other handler. Allowing repeated face swats from a full sized (no puppy licence) dog is not a good idea. If they're both off lead they can play properly but if they're not - then this behaviour is unacceptable to me (and my dog).

Frosty trained me to let her off lead when she gave play signals at other dogs. Ie play bows and generally acting excited. I'd let her off and she didn't play - she'd go sniff and forage - more fool me.

Variations on this, between us - she's been very scary around certain dogs on lead - ie both dogs are on lead. Especially other dogs that are pulling on lead. Not sure how we got to this place but I'm working on fixing it (mostly by walking away until she's paying attention to me again).

It's good to "premack" all play with other dogs - ie get your dog to do something that shows self control - like a short sit stay, and then give him the command to "go play" or "say hello". So he knows when he's got permission and can get it "right". And when he hasn't got permission and needs to stay with you. If you can practice recalling off play (with his favourite favourite rewards), that helps too, call him, then tell him to sit, touch his collar, then go play again.

[Red Fox]

They are not in his face usually. The dog that he had the first snap at is a very hyperactive friendly dog that the owners do not have a huge amount of control over. He is not aggressive at all just really really excitable. He was on a short leash and kept going on his back legs and put his front paws on spuds face trying to get to him. I'm now thinking that this was the problem and that it set the mood for the rest of the night.

The dogs must have been extremely close for this to happen? Too close. You need to create more space between your dog and others.

My trainer says we need to teach him to walk away when he is feeling uncomfortable with a situation.

Your dog should not be put in the above situation in the first place, expecting a dog to just 'walk away' is unrealistic.

Either way, I don't think your dogs behaviour is in any way abnormal given the above situation.

I agree with the first part of your response but not the second part. In conjunction with our behaviourist/trainer I've spent the past 6 months teaching my reactive dog to turn or walk away when he's uncomfortable, instead of barking and carrying on. My job is to try and prevent him from being put in situations that are stressful for him in the first place (such as a dog rearing up and pawing at his face) but it's also my job to teach him that barking and lunging isn't an appropriate response and to walk away whenever he is able to.

Training your reactive dog to respond appropriately whilst keeping him under threshold is certainly not unrealistic. But expecting a dog to ignore constant badgering (straining on the leash, threatening posture, inappropriate contact - paws on the head and so on as described by the OP) is IMO.

In this situation the dog was pushed over threshold and snapped. It happens. Doesn't make the dog a bad dog, or mean that there is anything 'wrong' with him. Just because the dogs behaviour is not desirable (from a human perspective), doesn't make it abnormal.

[BC Crazy]

Well said Snook..... A reactive dog is NOT abnormal..... Nor bad.

I certainly wouldn't expect any reactive dog to be a social butterfly & meet & greet every dog but on very random, 3 second meets I think it could work.

[BC Crazy]

I have been doing the same thing Snook with Stella only we don't attend classes etc yet as you know. Dogs the I am familiar with in our area & their temp. is ok we say a Hi & Bye , off we go. If we encounter a dog that I don't

know we continue walking past without stopping. She is coping miles better than before doing this as there is no time for her to size the other dog up or to start to get too anxious. Now I am finding we can pass other dogs in

the street without a second glance most times where as before she would start reacting the moment she saw them approaching. I will do a detour though if I am unsure of the dog in question. IMO best to avoid a possible negitive

situation at this stage if her progress.

Just had to edit to add that I praise, praise praise her & jackpot treat her when we have good meetings. Funny thing now is when a dog is approaching that we know Stella stops & sits & looks straight at me waiting for a treat.

Smart little food driven girl :laugh:

Edited April 21, 2013 by BC Crazy