Nsw Companion Animal Taskforce

[Elenbah]

Ringo said there is so if there is something buried away then we need to have it and a link.

Come on people if anyone has a link to what we are after PLEASE post it.

Yes, we all know it takes time to get through a 115 pages but if you have spotted it PLEASE let us all know.

I am betting that it is worded in such a way we are just not recognising it.

Yes, oakway, I think it's a case of having to read between the lines... This is how I see it....

NSW Companion Animals Taskforce Report Oct 2012.... Recommendation 2.. "The Animal Welfare Code Of Practice- Breeding Dogs & Cats" should be revised to ensure that the existing Guidelines it contains, become Enforceable Standards. Then if we go and open the link to "Animal Welfare Code Of Practice Breeding Dogs & Cats" ... 2. INTRODUCTION 2.1. This Code sets the standards for the breeding of Dogs & Cats. 2.2. It applies to the welfare of dogs & cats which are involved in the business of raising puppies... Then scroll down to DEFINITIONS. "Breeding". Means the business of breeding litters for sale... "Dog Housing" Where it says forming part of a house/flat/apartment etc.. These were found under Guidelines and we would be classified under "Facility"... For the purpose of Breeding dogs & Cats....... For which you must then link to your LOCAL COUNCIL who for the purpose of this discussion would classify us as a "Breeding Business".... I don't know if this makes it any clearer?....

Under this proposed Legislation, in order to obtain a breeders license, one would first have to apply to their local Council and under a great many local councils the minimum requirements must be a sustainable establishment and planing suitable for a boarding establishment/breeding facility.

[MonElite]

Under this proposed rediculous thing, what would happen to those that have an oops litter of couple of their own some kind of dogs?

Just a randon family that had some random non specific dogs. Non pedigree, non working, every day pets.

[corvus]

Under this proposed rediculous thing, what would happen to those that have an oops litter of couple of their own some kind of dogs?

Just a randon family that had some random non specific dogs. Non pedigree, non working, every day pets.

It says they could apply for a temporary licence, possibly at a reduced price.

I checked the current (2013) draft LEP for my council and there was absolutely no mention of requirements for boarding/training establishments except to mention restrictions in a special case where a boarding kennel had been proposed for a residential area. I sent an e-mail asking for more specific information.

[Kajirin]

Reading through all of this thread, a person's home is no longer their castle I feel for breeders having to face all of this. A place without the option to have a pedigree dog of your choice is not a happy place in my opinion. Also the right to breed dogs on your own property being virtually taken away is just wrong. Have to admit a lot of it goes over my head.

[moosmum]

Under this proposed rediculous thing, what would happen to those that have an oops litter of couple of their own some kind of dogs?

Just a randon family that had some random non specific dogs. Non pedigree, non working, every day pets.

It says they could apply for a temporary licence, possibly at a reduced price.

I checked the current (2013) draft LEP for my council and there was absolutely no mention of requirements for boarding/training establishments except to mention restrictions in a special case where a boarding kennel had been proposed for a residential area. I sent an e-mail asking for more specific information.

And how long would it take to come through,considering there are peeps out there who never realize their dogs in pup till it whelps. These types will dump 1st.

Does any one know who can be emailed to say their "Official Response" page won't work and they should by rights now extend the time frame after its fixed?

[Ringo]

In the attachment is the current 2012 Local Environment Plan for The Hills Local Council in Sydney.

The important parts to look at are:

Land use zoning at the start with permitted/prohibited land use

Definitions for land use at the end of document.

All councils have this standard LEP now, the maps for each area are just different.

[Ringo]

Sorry attachment is here for Land Use Zones

LEP Land Use Zones.doc

[Ringo]

Attached are some of the definitions used in NSW Local Environment Plans

LEP Dictionary - Definitions.doc

[Are You Serious Jo]

From what I can see there hasn't been a division noted between hobby and commercial breeders.

From the dictionary.

"animal boarding or training establishment means a building or place used for the breeding,

boarding, training, keeping or caring of animals for commercial purposes (other than for the agistment

of horses), and includes any associated riding school or ancillary veterinary hospital."

The above appears to be prohibited in all but rural properties and then only with consent. Is there anything that specifically says hobby breeders are classified as different to commercial breeders?

[brintey]

Thanks Ringo, this is pretty much what they told me over the phone. Reverend Jo, I imagine the difference between hobby and commercial breeders was what Ringo was alluding to as being defined in the LEC case ruling?

So in my case, 'commercial' breeding is clearly not allowed in low density residential (so according to council I can't have one litter of pups every couple of years, but I can build a whole new house in my backyard or run a child-care centre!). So if I were charged by Council, I imagine I would have to challenge their definition of commercial, and (if I can ever find it!) cite the LEC case as a precedent that not all breeding is automatically considered commercial (and I would fall into that non-commercial category, which is not defined in their planning laws). At least that is my understanding.

[Are You Serious Jo]

So we need the court case transcript to show precedent. I don't think I'd consider that to be a foolproof way to fight it and as I said previously, you still need the money to mount a court battle and a lot of hobby breeders just won't have it. But it might be useful to highlight the problems with the current lack of distinction.

[brintey]

Thanks Ringo, this is pretty much what they told me over the phone. Reverend Jo, I imagine the difference between hobby and commercial breeders was what Ringo was alluding to as being defined in the LEC case ruling?

So in my case, 'commercial' breeding is clearly not allowed in low density residential (so according to council I can't have one litter of pups every couple of years, but I can build a whole new house in my backyard or run a child-care centre!). So if I were charged by Council, I imagine I would have to challenge their definition of commercial, and (if I can ever find it!) cite the LEC case as a precedent that not all breeding is automatically considered commercial (and I would fall into that non-commercial category, which is not defined in their planning laws). At least that is my understanding.

[Ringo]

Yes Britney that is how it works.

They have a definition they work from.

The LEC has ruled that there is a difference between commercial dog breeding, boarding etc and the same activity that is not considered as commercial and councils must take notice of this, they cannot just lump everyone into the same category anymore and say bad luck that's what we think so that is the way it is.

If anyone has started searching the NSW LEC database of case law and cases you will find cases where commercial operations have been approved and also disallowed. There are also cases where councils have applied the same rules and not been successfull at the end of the day. Apart from saying there is a difference between commercial dog board, breeding, kenneling and training and the same activity that is not commercial the court also considers the intent of the activity in question and also how it is carried on ie how much change os made to the property in question to accomodate the activity. Think of commercial boarding or breeding establishments with the scale, the number of kennels, how the animals are kept and generally what takes place in such establishments. Then think of the true hobby breeder of pedigree dogs, how they carry on the same activity and why they do it. That is one of the principal things the LEC has drawn a distinction about.

And remember from reading the definitions in the LEC it covers ANIMALS, not just dogs. We have had issues with our local council yet within walking distance there is fellow who breeds and hand raised birds for sale to the public. He advertises on his front fence, place a advertising board on the footpath out the front of his premises yet never seems to have any problems. When this was mentioned to our council the reply was that 'we deal with every matter on its merits' - how they would not interpret this activity as ..' animal boarding, breeding, training establishment for commercial purposes' is beyond us yet that was there reply. In other words selective application of the same rules which leads to very dangerous ground.

[brintey]

All I've found so far Rigno is the Happy Paws rescue case.... I'll keep looking!

So it seems every case is determined on its merits in the LEC, it is not an across the board type of ruling, and every breeder would have to be prepared to defend their individual case in court.

I have yet to have a litter of my own, and won't for another year or so, so I think in my case if I can find the precedents in the case law database and take it to a solicitor who thinks I would fall into a non-commercial category if I went to court, and I did this before I had my first litter, I could in good faith reasonably assume that I had did not fall under prescribed conditions of Council and thus not be in conflict with Dogs NSW COE or any 'inspections.'

If anyone can recommend any solicitors in the Inner West or the Hills who have a background in this type of thing (I understand any solicitor will do it but I would like one who understands what dog breeding really entails - maybe someone who is a breeder themselves or a show, rescue or dog sports person?) please PM me.

Interestingly Ringo I was speaking to my sister who bred my dog, she also has a rescue organisation - and rescue is also classified as commercial under boarding kennels etc definition because money changes hands - and her Council is completely different, they actively encourage community foster carers knowing that they fall under this category.

[Steve]

I dont believe this is going to take us anywhere other than better educating us on how they have us if they want us anyway.

The fact that its only now that people are beginning to understand that they could have prevented most of us from having a litter of puppies on our premises because we live in zoned residential areas all along is a concern. Whether we need purpose built buildings if we are deemed commercial is the least of our problems because even as hobby breeders we need development consent to be able to participate in the activity of breeding dogs and we have to comply with mandatory codes for breeding dogs. If there is a ruling in the environment court which says that we don't need this consent as hobbyists then every council still has it wrong and in all honesty its difficult to believe - because even as a hobbyist breeding dogs on your residential property has a potential impact on your neighbours. If a licencing system comes in then it makes the activity of breeding dogs without a licence illegal which means you get punished, fined, dogs seized without a defence - you are guilty - right now if council decides you are breeding dogs in a residential zone you get bullied a bit and you may even have to stop breeding dogs on your property but its not against the law as its being pushed here.It is absolute folly in my opinion to say O.K. let everyone else have a licence but not us because at any minute that can change even if it gets in now and with what else is on the table they have you anyway if you cant even advertise a pup without a chip number or licence number. even if they charge Dogs NSW or the MDBA with issuing licences to our own members we still have to ensure our members are doing it as everyone else is - all that does it put a different person in to do your initial inspection and follow up inspections - you dont get off the hook just because its a different org if having council approval is part of the deal.

Victoria had a situation for years where they didnt count those breeding without the intent as a profit in the legislation for mandatory codes. That is now changed - last law change made anyone who was breeding without approvals regardless of whether they were commercial or not have to comply with it all anyway BUT the new laws they have on the table explain large and small breeders and give exemptions for having to comply with the MANDATORY CODES FOR BREEDING ESTABLISHMENTS to Vicdogs members who have under 10 fertile dogs and anyone else who has less than 4 - BUT the thing you can say till you a blue in the face is that these exemptions don't just give you instant approval to be able to breed dogs on your property and no one seems to hear it until they get in the poo. But because its not a licence issue you at least have a shot at no fines and keeping your dogs. All they do is give you an out as far as the codes for breeding establishments and permits are concerned. Most shires - if not all - don't allow you to breed dogs on your property in a residential zone or in any other zone without a permit if you are over their number limit via the permit. Of course though most hobby breeders in Victoria do breed dogs in a residential zone.

Say no to more laws - we already have a hobby which is radically over regulated and ample laws to have the same effect as these ones.

http://www.aiam.com.au/resources/files/proceedings/AIAM%202012/Wendy%20Brown.pdf

We dont stop people from owning dogs in case they bark and upset the neighbours so why should we be stopped from breeding a litter in case that upsets the neighbours - its about property rights.

[Ringo]

Britney - you need to read the case decision carefully,look at what was being said and the distinctions being drawn between commercial and non commercial activity.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I don't think this is the golden ticket either because you have to go to court to make your case and the judge could go either way. Unless there is a legal definition in the act that differentiates between hobby and commercial breeder then nothing has changed.

[BlackJaq]

I have filled in the feedback from according to the DNSW recommendations that I have received in an email and I suggest all members do the same.

Sorry if the email was already mentioned.

Edited April 23, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Sheridan]

Under this proposed rediculous thing, what would happen to those that have an oops litter of couple of their own some kind of dogs?

Just a randon family that had some random non specific dogs. Non pedigree, non working, every day pets.

It says they could apply for a temporary licence, possibly at a reduced price.

I checked the current (2013) draft LEP for my council and there was absolutely no mention of requirements for boarding/training establishments except to mention restrictions in a special case where a boarding kennel had been proposed for a residential area. I sent an e-mail asking for more specific information.

Doesn't that assume they will be policed cos we all know they won't.

[luvsdogs]

I have filled in the feedback from according to the DNSW recommendations that I have received in an email and I suggest all members do the same.

Sorry if the email was already mentioned.

I will send the feedback form in but as I'm not a breeder I want to change the "further comments". Does anyone have any ideas on what can be included?