Nsw Companion Animal Taskforce

[Steve]

Surely a part of any application for a licence has to be a list of criteria which you can peruse and determine whether or not it is for you.

We are being asked to comment on an idea with no clear view across the board of what that would entail. We are told via the mandatory code that such things relate to anyone who breeds a litter and this task force report is explicit that it wants anyone who breeds one litter to be a holder of a licence - it even goes into what someone can do for a short licence if they only breed one litter ever.

We know that in other places where licences have been introduced some people have had to do all manner of things to provide purpose built buildings etc.though there is a valid argument that even without a licence you really should have been complying with these things which are in your council area anyway. It would appear that each council reg is different and will remain different - so how is anyone to know what it is we are agreeing to in principal or not agreeing to? How can anyone know before they apply for a licence to breed dogs what that may mean to them, their dogs and whether or not they will be able to fulfill the requirements on their property?

Some councils such as the ones I've provided links to have already made the criteria public but most don't and most cant help you if you ask what you need before you tender a DA.

The danger here is of course what corvus has picked up and what ive been saying over and over for a very long time. In order for anyone to breed even one litter of dogs from their property they need to have council approval to do so.By this reaction it simply proves what the task force is saying - that dog breeders dont do what they should be doing without a licence.

It leaves questions about what is free use of your own property and how on earth someone having a litter of puppies whelped in their laundry could have any environmental impact and why a DA is required but neighbours may disagree and not everyone can be relied upon to keep their numbers , smell. noise etc down.

Personally I think we should stop a minute and reconsider the approach. I don't think that we should be saying if this comes in it is the death of us because we allowed them to put things in place a couple of years ago that can kill us off and Dogs NSW gave it a tick. Genuinely most breeders have been ignorant of needing a DA and they havent beeen informed of this usually until there has been a complaint but ignorance is no defence and these sort of responses will alert them to the fact that a licence system is necessary as most of us have been doing what we do without DA approvals.

1: A breeder licensing system should be established and the Companion Animals Register should be updated to capture breeder license information for each animal record. (CA Report p.6).

There is no need to introduce a licencing system for breeders to be able to accomplish this outcome.

Micro chip laws state the animal has to be chipped when it is sold or when it is 12 weeks old.All you need to do is ensure the animal has to be chipped first and foremost into the breeders name and address with no exemptions. All that takes is a simple small admission to the chip forms. All animals bred by a breeder will be linked to that breeder's details.

The system is already in place why not tweak it and enforce it rather than complicate it and make it harder to police and much more costly?

Discussion with breeders has already shown that many of those who are now complying with microchip laws will stop complying with chipping their puppies before they leave their premises and instead sell them to markets where they can avoid this in order to operate without a licence and avoid detection. Those breeders who are most likely to be mistreating their animals are the least likely to apply for licences and to go underground further which in fact further compromises the welfare of the animals involved. Small hobby breeders who are clearly a preferred source of puppies are not able to sustain such over regulation into their hobbies and will leave more demand for large scale commercial breeders as they leave .

In fact the introduction of a licencing scheme with out discrimination for hobby and commercial breeders wil highly advantage large scale breeders and profoundly disadvantage hobby breeders.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Steve

[Steve]

Also federal laws determine when someone is in business. When they are doing any activity with an intent to make a profit - even if thise activities are normally considered hobbies they are required to have an ABN, a registered business name and operate in a business like fashion reporting income and expenses etc.

So how is it that state laws or even council by laws can contradict that and determine that someone who is conducting an activity with no intent to make a profit is conducting a business from their property and that they must comply with conditions required for someone who is doing this activity with a view to make a profit.

If the federal government is going to allow us all to claim expenses associated with building kennels, exercise yards, food, vets, travel. phones, water, electricity uses,grooming, maintenance,fencing etc etc then surely this is more equitable. But as it stands they want us to operate as a hobby with the same requirements and costs and conditions as a business and not be able to claim any of those expenses.

[moosmum]

tried to respond via the on line feed back form and it failed to register 2x. I plan to email a response anyway,but others will give up.

There are problems too with not knowing if if we will be working under annual or life time rego.

If some proposals pass,but not others it will affect over all out comes so that comments on individual points might prove irrelevent or false.

I could find no mention of the microchip numbers to be listed on adds to make comment,

The costs of applying for a breeder license could be extremely expensive between administration and inspection of premises.Would this be an annual inspection? I assume so,if not from the start,then eventualy. This alone is going to add greatly to costs of breeding if you consider pensioners,who may be well able to meet costs of raising a litter and any veterinary treatment resulting.Coming up with a large fee for inspection and licensing before they can even consider it might not be workable.

The problem with no guide lines to separate a commercial from a hobby breeder,and existing quide lines being made law,is that small breeders will come under increasing pressure over time to comply to the same standards, as the public is encouraged to accept and report any less,and enquiring breeders are given the same information as a commercial breeder.

How quickly can a "provisional" license be granted from application, for accidental or one off litters? And what will be the cost? I can can see this resulting in a lot more dogs and puppies dumped by people who haven't registered their entire dogs in the 1st place,especialy if the cost to even own an entire animal are designed to penalize,yearly.

My main problems with this as a whole,is in the heavy regulation, administration,and associated costs for small breeders. It sets any future direction to more of the same in the long run and is likely to snow ball out of control.If more people simply chose to fly under the radar due to costs, the original problems may increase rather than decrease.

[Ringo]

In response to Britney comment - the Guide to Breeding Cats & Dogs in NSW allows you to run them all together without kenneling etc - it is listed in there with the requirements.

The Companion Animals Taskforce discussion with regards to a breeders licence system yes it slanted towards commercial operations. But they are (at least someone on it) is aware the NSWLEC has drawn a distinction between commercial breeding and breeding that is not.

The information Steve is talking about with regards to Dungog & Wollongong (?) councils appears in one form or another on most council websites. They regard the definition of commercial as one where money changes hands, even for one puppy. The Australian Tax Office has a limit on what you are able to earn from a 'hobby' before they become interested. Seems to vary to anywhere between $15,000 to $25,000 depending on who you talk to (And that is profit they are talking about) under this and they are not interested. It costs them money.

Local Councils also put out what are called Local Government Orders (LGOPs) on matters that come under their control. A lot have put out LGOs that say you cannot have anymore than 2 dogs, 4 dogs, 2 rabbits, 2 guinea pigs etc depending on where they are. They also tell people these are enforceable and the law. No they are not a LGO comes with no enforcement attached to it if they want to take action then they have to go back to the Local Government Act, section 124 ??? I think from memory that covers animals.

The Department of Local Government also issues notices and circulars to councils about how to carry on business. They have issued several that say DO NOT use planning laws to limit the number of cats, dogs on a property use other means at your disposal. Again a lot of councils ignore this, can't quite work that one out - you governing department say don't do something yet councils continue on their merry way doing the opposite. I will see if I can find the references to these I have.

And remember it is your intent that is also very important - the people flying under the radar having a litter of pups every month will be found out and they will be in trouble even under the current system. 1/2 Litters a year and you are in a whole different ball game, despite what your council might tell you.

One other piece of advice for those who are having issues with their local council, make a freedom if information request for the information they have on the issue ie dogs at your address, it costs $30 or $40 dollars and they must give you everything unless it falls under strict criteria , it is always interesting to read what they have to say. Most councils will have how to do this on their website,labelled GIPA (Government Information Public Access) Act .

Just as a side issue from the report, councils deal with 75% of dogs that are impounded, the RSPCA deals with 20% and the AWL 5%. For cats much closer, councils 55%, RSPCA, AWL & CPA 45% between them. So for dogs at least those who have the least to do with them when impounded will now become the ones who decide what happens with breeding.

[Steve]

Its also fascinating that there is almost no real attempt to address what impact pound's policy and rescue issues may impact on euth numbers.

All they are asking for is a policy document - not laws or codes etc to affect rescue or pounds and shelters.

Pounds in NSW dont have to desex before sale.Thousands and thousands of puppies are put into the community which come from rescue which have no regs on them as far as codes or laws are concerned. Some rescues are flying way under the radar because they are actually deliberately breeding and whats more breeding huge numbers in comparison to registered breeders are but calling themselves rescue rather than breeders.

They want everyone who has a litter to have a course pass in animal studies but rescue have just been left un touched.

Seems to me there is a hefty chunk left out of this and the whole thing has been approached with extreme bias.Though really, what was to be expected - the wolves sat at a table with one sheep [ Dogs NSW] and voted on what is for dinner. the sheep said no to licencing but they were ignored anyway.

[moosmum]

To be effective and also flexible to future needs,any legislation needs to focus on what it says to influence the culture of opinion.These proposals for breeders or even any owner of an entire dog focus not on better decisions and understanding of companion animal issues,but on reducing breeders.

All breeders to be licensed and monitored with inspections.

While the public and authorities are focused on breeding practices and forcing uniform standards,You are widening the definition of backyard breeders yet again to include all smaller,hobby breeders.

If there is to be a single registering body for all breeding dogs (out side of commercial/farmed) it MUST be an independent community owned and run body that can encourage the dialog thats missing and provide a voice for those who have no united representation.

[brintey]

But they are (at least someone on it) is aware the NSWLEC has drawn a distinction between commercial breeding and breeding that is not.

The information Steve is talking about with regards to Dungog & Wollongong (?) councils appears in one form or another on most council websites. They regard the definition of commercial as one where money changes hands, even for one puppy. The Australian Tax Office has a limit on what you are able to earn from a 'hobby' before they become interested. Seems to vary to anywhere between $15,000 to $25,000 depending on who you talk to (And that is profit they are talking about) under this and they are not interested. It costs them money.

Hi Ringo - so just to be crystal clear - the NSW LEC ruling about the distinction between hobby and commercial breeding will override the local council definition of commercial breeding?

So if a hobby breeder is challenged on this by their council... they just have to quote the NSW LEC ruling?

Cheers

Brintey (a dog) not Britney (a vacuous pop star... really must change my user name!)

[Steve]

Makes no difference if you get called commercial or a hobby - you breed one litter of puppies on your property you need council approval and that has been the case for decades. No one has taken any notice of it because common sense prevailed but the minute you have come under attention or a complaint is in they have pulled this for as long as Im aware of and Im pretty old.

[brintey]

OK Steve now I'm confused... my local council told me I had to comply to their LEP requirements BECAUSE I was classified as commercial...

So I would assume that as I'm NOT classified as commercial under the NSW LEP ruling, that I DON"T have to comply?

Should I be ringing them and asking if I need council approval for a non-commercial litter?

[Are You Serious Jo]

One of the issues is having the money to fight the council if they think they are right, they won't just back down because you say another agency has overruled them.

[oakway]

Oakway

Just think how much you "may" have to pay for a Registered Pure Bred Puppy from an Ethical Registered Breeder.

Probably wont matter. There wont be any around.

When breeding a litter becomes x4 more than the returns, only the wealthy and really obsessed will continue.

The idea of this legislation is to remove dogs from pet ownership. Full stop.

Pitbulls

docking

all reduced numbers available, and AR found that via legislation, they could win, as no one would stand against them, because no one had a pitbull, and docking is cruel, so now they are going towards the end goal.

True.

Again I repeat, if this document becomes law and the law is enforced, god help the costs to the dog world to comply because they will be enforced.

I breed and show pure bred dogs, I along with many others will not be able to continue and don't forget we the breeders are the ones that supply your lovely pure bred pets.

[Steve]

OK Steve now I'm confused... my local council told me I had to comply to their LEP requirements BECAUSE I was classified as commercial...

So I would assume that as I'm NOT classified as commercial under the NSW LEP ruling, that I DON"T have to comply?

Should I be ringing them and asking if I need council approval for a non-commercial litter?

Let me put it this way. Lets say you have 2 dogs and one has a litter and the neighbours complain - council wont treat you one way if you are breeding for commercial reasons and another if you are breeding as a hobby. they have requirements which they place on you if you are keeping breeding dogs - this usually comes under intensive agriculture. In order to keep breeding dogs and breed them on your property whether that is for a commercial purpose or not you need a development consent to conduct that activity on your land. You will need to tell them all about what sort of dogs you have how many etc and they will tell you what you will need to do if anything to carry on that activity on your property. You can argue the commercial ruling if they get stupid and tell you that you need purpose built buildings etc but at the end of the day you will still need approval in my opinion to conduct the hobby of breeding dogs on your property.Some councils count out any option by saying as Dungog do that keeping breeding dogs can only happen in certain zones and these are usually things they notify you of before you purchase the land. Based on the wording of Dungog if you lived in a residential zone you would never get approval to even keep one breeding dog.

There may be some way of us all fighting the whole free use of our property thing but the reality is that breeding dogs does have the potential of impacting on the neighbours and Im not sure that would fly either.

The other thing to note is that this is modeled off the Gold Coast pilot program and if they go that way they will give people the nod to breed a litter or two on their property as a development consent and part of the licence without all of this rubbish which in reality we should have been doing. If that's the case and some degree of common sense is within the whole thing then it may even work out easier than it is now - if you comply. Problem is we have no way of knowing what the criteria is going to be for gaining a licence and we have no faith that what we get will remains as it starts. And thats not even getting to saying what we think of mandatory codes let alone making the stupid guidelines law too!

Talk to your council PLANNING department Don't do this over the phone - if its not in writing its not counted.if they agree that you dont need a development consent to breed dogs on your property get that in writing. If they introduce licences you may need to show that you have council approval or that you don't need it to breed dogs on your premises.

In my case I have council approval to keep breeding dogs and breed dogs on my property and I have that in writing. When we applied hubby and I had an argument because I wasn't even sure I would ever breed a litter and I only had 2 fertile dogs but he wouldnt let it go and pushed for the approvals before we even moved onto the property. Needless to say I'm glad now he was so stubborn.

[Ringo]

You all need to go and read the NEW Local Environment Plans for your council areas - they are or will soon be all the same with the same definitions for land zoning in each. As I said the aim is to have the whole state of NSW covered by the same zoning definitions not the ad hoc zoning that exited beforehand.

Dog breeding is no longer defined as intensive agriculture as it was in the past and the new LEPs recognise this as does the Land & Environment Court - if you go back far enough in LEC court decisions you will find it regarded as this in their decisions.

Dog breeding other than ..' boarding, breeding, training for a commercial purpose' gets no mention whatsoever in the LEPs. So as a consent authority council has no power over the hobby breeders (and I mean the true hobby breeders not the ones who hide behind this and breed a litter every month) So it comes down to proving your activity is not commerical in nature and the NSWLEC has made a decision which is a binding interpretation of the legislation that there is a difference between commercial and non commercial aka hobby breeders of dogs. The definition from the NSWLEC relies on more than what councils do ie money changes hands therefore it is commercial in nature hence prohibited development/activity in zones where this is activity is prohibited.

Despite what local councils think they do not make laws they only interpret & enforce the ones what come under their jurisdiction. When matters go before say the LEC and a interpretation of legislation is handed down it is a binding interpretation for that legislation so the old interpretation goes out the window and the new interpretation must be adhered to or they will loose the next matter at the LEC that again relies on the old interpretation against the new one. Parliaments make laws, enforcement bodies execute them and the judiciary interpret them. That's how it works in Australia.

To Britney I would be asking for, in writing, what your council is relying upon to say you are dog breeding for a commercial purpose and to also quote where they have got this definition from. In reply I would be telling them the NSWLEC has interpreted commercial breeding to be more than just the exchange of money and see what happens. To everyone else you should be confirming with your local council what your zoning is and then looking at the NEW Local Environment Plan for your council to see what activities are allowed, either by consent of the council or allowed by the definition in the LEP for your zoning.

In relation to DOGS NSW knowing abt what the LEC has handed down I would have thought so, but it appears not from what the solicitor at the meeting had to say.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I understand what you are saying, but where is the actual wording from the LEC to differentiate between hobby and commercial breeder? Obviously the local councils define a commercial breeder as anyone who sells a dog, but the issue of definition has always been a problem. Is there a clear description people can access?

[oakway]

I understand what you are saying, but where is the actual wording from the LEC to differentiate between hobby and commercial breeder? Obviously the local councils define a commercial breeder as anyone who sells a dog, but the issue of definition has always been a problem. Is there a clear description people can access?

Not to my knowledge.

Here in lies the problem.

I have asked at Dog Shows all weekend and nobody can give an exact definition.

All I have had said to me its like Oscars law their is NO definition made between the Registered State Body breeders and the Puppy Farmer.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Ringo said there is so if there is something buried away then we need to have it and a link.

[tarope]

Have your say people on this very important issue, don't let it happen.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/eventregistration/eventstaskforce/TaskForceRegister.asp?mi=25&ml=1&AreaIndex=FB2

[oakway]

Ringo said there is so if there is something buried away then we need to have it and a link.

Come on people if anyone has a link to what we are after PLEASE post it.

Yes, we all know it takes time to get through a 115 pages but if you have spotted it PLEASE let us all know.

I am betting that it is worded in such a way we are just not recognising it.

[MonElite]

It took me good 45 minutes to write the responce and the website didnt accept it and kicked me out.

I will try again, but most people would ahve given up by now.

[minimax]

It took me good 45 minutes to write the responce and the website didnt accept it and kicked me out.

I will try again, but most people would ahve given up by now.

Same here

I got a "validation key expired" message when I hit submit