Nsw Companion Animal Taskforce

[Ringo]

Regarding the pensioner in Liverpool was it the Dept of Housing or the local council that gave her that ultimatum.

If it was the DoH then she could have appealed the decision made by them.

If it was the local council then she had an even better chance of telling them to leave her alone.

There is a set procedure council have to go through and if it was them who made that decision then it sounds as though proper procedure was not followed by them.

Like I keep saying, the vast majority of ethical HOBBY breeders do not come under the council Local Environment Plans which is what they pull out saying you a a commercial animal establishment as you sell some of your puppies for money, with all the ramifications that follows from this. And this has been backed up by the NSW Land & Environment Court which has drawn a distinction between commerical & non-commercial animal establishments. Following on from this as non-commercial animal establishments councils have no control over the activities as this does not come under the Local Environment Plan. Councils are only consent authorities, if an activity comes under their control then they may impose conditions on it. If an activity does not come under their control then despite what most councils think, they have absolutely no control over it whatsoever. this applies to ALL activities not just breeding dogs.

[inez]

She was not permitted sufficient time that would have been needed to wait for people who would consider an old dog.

There needs to be open discussion on calling registered breeders who rehome their adult dogs (of all ages) as pets.... puppy farmers.

If they've bred, raised & socialisedl those dogs well, then they've already proven they're not puppy farmers. The bottom line is that puppy farming does not value individual dogs to include them with human lives & thus socialise them. So those good registered breeders are the opposite of puppy farmers.

I've seen what wonderful adult dogs of all ages they offer to pet homes. When people praise our tibbies, I tell them the truth.... the dogs came like that! I'd love to be able to claim credit for their foundation. But can't.

I've put numerous good pet owners onto that way of adopting a dog.... an adult dog of any age, from a good registered breeder. Result has been happy dogs, happy pet owners & breeders happy to know their dogs have a good forever home.

As to older dogs.... we have an aging population in Australia. So there's a lot of people in the older brackets. Older dogs make great companions for them. As well as for younger people who want a laid-back, mellow dog with developed & known behaviours.

The golden oldies are gems.

Here's one I would've given my eye teeth for in recent times. Tragedy led to a breeder rehoming his beautifully raised, much loved dogs.

9, 10, 11 yrs? Can't remember & didn't care much. She got a great new home. The Lady Gizmo (click to enlarge):

It's only a click away for pet owners to locate adult dogs from registered breeders:

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/dogs.asp

Some people looking for a pet, really leave you scratching your head, had a phone call. nice pensioner, not much money due to as we know pension. hoping I might know someone wanting to place a puppy or older dog for free or nominal amount. rings round. found a lady with a lovely 7 year old fully trained would slip right in as if she were born with them. So what is his reply? Nooo, really I think I would rather one I could train myself my way.

Think I would prefer a puppy after all. somehow I think he will be having a long wait I dont know anyone prepared to breed raise and accept less than it cost to raise a purebred pup.

Edited April 29, 2013 by inez

[inez]

Regarding the pensioner in Liverpool was it the Dept of Housing or the local council that gave her that ultimatum.

If it was the DoH then she could have appealed the decision made by them.

If it was the local council then she had an even better chance of telling them to leave her alone.

There is a set procedure council have to go through and if it was them who made that decision then it sounds as though proper procedure was not followed by them.

Like I keep saying, the vast majority of ethical HOBBY breeders do not come under the council Local Environment Plans which is what they pull out saying you a a commercial animal establishment as you sell some of your puppies for money, with all the ramifications that follows from this. And this has been backed up by the NSW Land & Environment Court which has drawn a distinction between commerical & non-commercial animal establishments. Following on from this as non-commercial animal establishments councils have no control over the activities as this does not come under the Local Environment Plan. Councils are only consent authorities, if an activity comes under their control then they may impose conditions on it. If an activity does not come under their control then despite what most councils think, they have absolutely no control over it whatsoever. this applies to ALL activities not just breeding dogs.

The lady I refered to strongly suspects all the problems stemmed from a recent marriage breakup, the complaints were lodged with both the Dept of housing and council at the same time. Who can she appeal to? Friends would be happy to let her have some of hers back so she could get back to breeding and showing if she were allowed to keep them.

[Ringo]

The DoH has an appeal mechanism for all their decisions. She needs to go past the local office about the procedure.

Regarding the local council she needs to get some advice regarding the paperwork the council gave her saying she had a limited time to reduce the number of her dogs. Without seeing any of it they would have most likely mentioned the Local Environment Plan to her in the same breath as commercial breeder of dogs because she takes money. They may have mentioned their Local Council Orders saying there was a limit to the number of dogs a person could have - these order don't carry any enforceable restrictions with them in other words they aren't worth the paper they are written on.

If they have imposed a limit on her dogs then it may have been done with the Local Government Act using Section 124 or 129 ?? (Can't remember exactly which) but that sets out a strict format that must be followed, they just don't turn up and say this is what is to happen or else.

[Steve]

Whether she takes money or not - she still breeds dogs on her property and she has had 20 - thats twenty dogs there for a very long time. She comes under mandatory codes for breeding dogs which we all have to comply with if we have one litter and she hasnt been and she still doesn't have to. She needed approval to breed dogs on her property and she didn't have it. They have to put a time frame on her to move some of them out because if they don't it may take until they die to do so. She is allowed to keep 10 dogs and breed them on her property - a housing commission house in a highly built up area - she is still doing a whole lot better than she might be. Id shut up and not make any waves if I were her.

All this does is emphasise what the task force is saying - that there are breeders in this state who are breeding dogs without the proper approvals and with out complying with mandatory codes and no one knows who they are or where they are until they get a complaint!.

[Ringo]

Steve

Without going into the particulars of the particular case I doubt whether most people have permission from their local council to breed dogs where they live as -

Unless you live in an area zoned for a '..dog boarding, breeding, training establishment for commercial purposes..' then they are not allowed to and the council cannot give permission for an activity that is prohibited in their land zoning.

The DogsNSW code for breeding covers the DPI Code of Management for Cats & Dogs and to comply with one you comply with the other.

Then it all comes back to how a '. dog boarding, breeding, training establishment for commercial purposes..' is defined and councils take one definition, the Land & Environment Court has ruled there is a difference between these activities where it is commercial or non-commercial and I know which one the legislation will support.

[Steve]

I am well aware of the fact that most people who breed dogs for any purpose dont have approval to do so - how does whether or not its classified a commercial situation or not pertinent .If you breed dogs as a hobby you still need approval to breed dogs on your property .No matter how many you breed or why you still need to comply with the mandatory codes whether you are Dogs NSW or not.

This person has had 20 dogs in a suburban back yard and has been breeding them without council approval which she needs if she is a hobby breeder to use the land for that purpose - hasnt complied with the codes for breeding dogs which she needs to do as a hobby breeder.If Whether or not the land and environment court has determined what is or is not commercial with regard to dog BREEDING Im still not getting it so you need to go slower for me.

[espinay2]

Steve, what is the mechanism for gaining that approval? There has to be some kind of mechanism if approval is required.

I think I get what Ringo is saying - if the mechanism for approval is through the council LEP, then the Land and environment court makes a distinction between commercial and non-commercial which is relevant to application of the LEP.

Edited April 29, 2013 by espinay2

[dog_fan]

Why does it seem so many breeders are putting themselves and their dogs at risk by not getting the correct approvals. Seems to me that they will be the first to be targetted if licensing comes in. How will they be able to apply for a license if they do not have the correct council approval?

Seems to me they need to get these aprovals asap regardless of any new licensing.

[espinay2]

Problem is, it is rather unclear exactly WHAT approvals are required!

[dog_fan]

I thought that breeders needed to get development approval if they wanted to breed dogs. Also it is crazy to have 20 dogs in public housing in a residential area. If this was lawful why did the dogs have to be rehomed?

Seems to me that if breeding dogs itis the breeders job to know what the rules are and to comply with them, especially if they are saying their dogs are their priority.

If people don't comply with the laws it is the dogs that suffer.

[inez]

I thought that breeders needed to get development approval if they wanted to breed dogs. Also it is crazy to have 20 dogs in public housing in a residential area. If this was lawful why did the dogs have to be rehomed?

Seems to me that if breeding dogs itis the breeders job to know what the rules are and to comply with them, especially if they are saying their dogs are their priority.

If people don't comply with the laws it is the dogs that suffer.

Well hers havent, they are all safely rehomed, its just her that misses them.

the council had approved the 20 and had been quite happy with that for the past 20 years.She had not done anything wrong or differntly. the ex stirred up trouble, there was a new ranger (with a nasty attitude) who came out instead of the one who has been the normal one to do the inspections was on holiday that week.

The point IS. the law already in force is what the new ranger used as the power to change the already approved permission to keep the dogs she did have.

So what greater ones will be available for those who decide they dont like someone? She said the ranger who usaully came out did try to get the new ranger to reconsider.

The complaint lodged to the deptartment of housing is an interesting outcome which I doubt many dog owners are aware of. That they can increase the rental if you breed a litter and you must (apparently) advise them when you do. Considering the breed produces a 'litter' of one to three pups, thats a considerable difference to the 'litter' of most breeds of 4 to 10 or a friends golden retriver 16 in each of her three litters. A considerable difference in potential income from one 'litter'.

I just remembered a conversation with our local ranger, told me that because of the conditions that have to be met now,and the much smaller blocks now compared to those in the old suburbs, that the majority of people in the surburban areas will not be granted a licence today. The lucky ones are those who had applied and been granted before the new rules came in. That conversation took place nearly 9 years ago, so probably be even more so now?

Maybe the day is comming if you did want a litter the city is not the place to contemplate it?

Edited April 30, 2013 by inez

[Steve]

Steve, what is the mechanism for gaining that approval? There has to be some kind of mechanism if approval is required.

I think I get what Ringo is saying - if the mechanism for approval is through the council LEP, then the Land and environment court makes a distinction between commercial and non-commercial which is relevant to application of the LEP.

You have to apply to council just as you would if you were intending to use the land for any other purpose which requires council approval - via a planning approval application.

[Steve]

I thought that breeders needed to get development approval if they wanted to breed dogs. Also it is crazy to have 20 dogs in public housing in a residential area. If this was lawful why did the dogs have to be rehomed?

Seems to me that if breeding dogs itis the breeders job to know what the rules are and to comply with them, especially if they are saying their dogs are their priority.

If people don't comply with the laws it is the dogs that suffer.

Well hers havent, they are all safely rehomed, its just her that misses them.

the council had approved the 20 and had been quite happy with that for the past 20 years.She had not done anything wrong or differntly. the ex stirred up trouble, there was a new ranger (with a nasty attitude) who came out instead of the one who has been the normal one to do the inspections was on holiday that week.

The point IS. the law already in force is what the new ranger used as the power to change the already approved permission to keep the dogs she did have.

So what greater ones will be available for those who decide they dont like someone? She said the ranger who usaully came out did try to get the new ranger to reconsider.

The complaint lodged to the deptartment of housing is an interesting outcome which I doubt many dog owners are aware of. That they can increase the rental if you breed a litter and you must (apparently) advise them when you do. Considering the breed produces a 'litter' of one to three pups, thats a considerable difference to the 'litter' of most breeds of 4 to 10 or a friends golden retriver 16 in each of her three litters. A considerable difference in potential income from one 'litter'.

I just remembered a conversation with our local ranger, told me that because of the conditions that have to be met now,and the much smaller blocks now compared to those in the old suburbs, that the majority of people in the surburban areas will not be granted a licence today. The lucky ones are those who had applied and been granted before the new rules came in. That conversation took place nearly 9 years ago, so probably be even more so now?

Maybe the day is comming if you did want a litter the city is not the place to contemplate it?

If in fact this person has had approval to have 20 dogs which she uses to breed with on her property and she has been getting regular inspections she would be the only person in the whole of NSW who is having that happen. I would be surprised if this is being reported as it really is but if she has had approval to use the land for that purpose then they cant just change it on her .

The only way the department of housing can make her pay more rent is if she shows an increase in her TAXABLE income.

[mita]

I just remembered a conversation with our local ranger, told me that because of the conditions that have to be met now,and the much smaller blocks now compared to those in the old suburbs, that the majority of people in the surburban areas will not be granted a licence today. The lucky ones are those who had applied and been granted before the new rules came in. That conversation took place nearly 9 years ago, so probably be even more so now?

You're right, there is a trend to build on smaller blocks in metropolitan areas. Certainly, in Brisbane, the traditional 1/4 acre block is being subdivided to accommodate 2 houses. Or a couple of those blocks will be combined to build townhouses. The result is denser living conditions so things once 'softened' by space, now are in people's faces.

A vet remarked to me that he'd always liked how a person/couple in the suburbs could own 2, 3 or 4 p/b dogs that they thoroughly enjoyed showing. And it proved a great interest, hobby & social outlet .... even tho' that's only a modest scale. He said he'd hate to see that threatened by over-regulation, and also by the changing nature of the suburbs.

The Brisbane Council allows people to own 2 dogs. To own 3 or 4, it's necessary to get a licence. Every year it has to be paid for again. We've had a licence for years & the cost grew incredibly over that time. In order to get that licence, in the first place, the Council speaks to the neighbours to see if they have any objections. BTW, that's not a kennel licence.

Edited April 30, 2013 by mita

[espinay2]

Steve, what is the mechanism for gaining that approval? There has to be some kind of mechanism if approval is required.

I think I get what Ringo is saying - if the mechanism for approval is through the council LEP, then the Land and environment court makes a distinction between commercial and non-commercial which is relevant to application of the LEP.

You have to apply to council just as you would if you were intending to use the land for any other purpose which requires council approval - via a planning approval application.

I am guessing then that it would depend on your property zoning under the council LEP, which is what specifies what use requires approval and what is exempt. Reading my own council LEP and zoning requirements it doesnt make it clear at all, so I have written to council for clarification.

[dog_fan]

I thought that breeders needed to get development approval if they wanted to breed dogs. Also it is crazy to have 20 dogs in public housing in a residential area. If this was lawful why did the dogs have to be rehomed?

Seems to me that if breeding dogs itis the breeders job to know what the rules are and to comply with them, especially if they are saying their dogs are their priority.

If people don't comply with the laws it is the dogs that suffer.

Well hers havent, they are all safely rehomed, its just her that misses them.

the council had approved the 20 and had been quite happy with that for the past 20 years.She had not done anything wrong or differntly. the ex stirred up trouble, there was a new ranger (with a nasty attitude) who came out instead of the one who has been the normal one to do the inspections was on holiday that week.

The point IS. the law already in force is what the new ranger used as the power to change the already approved permission to keep the dogs she did have.

So what greater ones will be available for those who decide they dont like someone? She said the ranger who usaully came out did try to get the new ranger to reconsider.

The complaint lodged to the deptartment of housing is an interesting outcome which I doubt many dog owners are aware of. That they can increase the rental if you breed a litter and you must (apparently) advise them when you do. Considering the breed produces a 'litter' of one to three pups, thats a considerable difference to the 'litter' of most breeds of 4 to 10 or a friends golden retriver 16 in each of her three litters. A considerable difference in potential income from one 'litter'.

I just remembered a conversation with our local ranger, told me that because of the conditions that have to be met now,and the much smaller blocks now compared to those in the old suburbs, that the majority of people in the surburban areas will not be granted a licence today. The lucky ones are those who had applied and been granted before the new rules came in. That conversation took place nearly 9 years ago, so probably be even more so now?

Maybe the day is comming if you did want a litter the city is not the place to contemplate it?

[inez]

Trouble is I have put what i do know, I dont know anymore than repeated here. I did speak to her when she dropped some off for me to rehome when told half had to go.

Edited April 30, 2013 by inez

[Steve]

Steve, what is the mechanism for gaining that approval? There has to be some kind of mechanism if approval is required.

I think I get what Ringo is saying - if the mechanism for approval is through the council LEP, then the Land and environment court makes a distinction between commercial and non-commercial which is relevant to application of the LEP.

You have to apply to council just as you would if you were intending to use the land for any other purpose which requires council approval - via a planning approval application.

I am guessing then that it would depend on your property zoning under the council LEP, which is what specifies what use requires approval and what is exempt. Reading my own council LEP and zoning requirements it doesnt make it clear at all, so I have written to council for clarification.

there is no doubt that if they want to they can stop you from being able to breed a litter on your property if its not in the right zone but mostly its about applying to council and telling them about what you want to do and how you will do it and common sense mostly prevails. There are lots of people who are breeding dogs in residential zones with council approval usually with conditions.

Of course the big issues are that you cant know whether you will get it before you apply because each is taken on a case by case basis - example a Maremma breeder would have more difficulty,restriction on numbers etc than a chi breeder . If you have a big block with neighbours who are a fair distance away its going to be different if you live in a town house with neighbours all over you. Most times though if you have more than 2 dogs used for breeding you have to house them at least 15 metres from a dwelling or a place used to prepare food but if you had 50 dogs you would expect different conditions.

I have council approval to breed dogs on my property - 30 acres rural zoning - but I had to go through 8 months of crap to get it and part of it was they petitioned even the main street businesses which Im 6 kilometres away from to see if there were any objections.

I can have cattle, sheep, chooks, horses and as many dogs as pets or working as I want etc without council approval but I still needed a planning approval to use the land to breed a litter of puppies and I can never allow anyone else's dogs to stay here.

[inez]

Steve, what is the mechanism for gaining that approval? There has to be some kind of mechanism if approval is required.

I think I get what Ringo is saying - if the mechanism for approval is through the council LEP, then the Land and environment court makes a distinction between commercial and non-commercial which is relevant to application of the LEP.

You have to apply to council just as you would if you were intending to use the land for any other purpose which requires council approval - via a planning approval application.

I am guessing then that it would depend on your property zoning under the council LEP, which is what specifies what use requires approval and what is exempt. Reading my own council LEP and zoning requirements it doesnt make it clear at all, so I have written to council for clarification.

there is no doubt that if they want to they can stop you from being able to breed a litter on your property if its not in the right zone but mostly its about applying to council and telling them about what you want to do and how you will do it and common sense mostly prevails. There are lots of people who are breeding dogs in residential zones with council approval usually with conditions.

Of course the big issues are that you cant know whether you will get it before you apply because each is taken on a case by case basis - example a Maremma breeder would have more difficulty,restriction on numbers etc than a chi breeder . If you have a big block with neighbours who are a fair distance away its going to be different if you live in a town house with neighbours all over you. Most times though if you have more than 2 dogs used for breeding you have to house them at least 15 metres from a dwelling or a place used to prepare food but if you had 50 dogs you would expect different conditions.

I have council approval to breed dogs on my property - 30 acres rural zoning - but I had to go through 8 months of crap to get it and part of it was they petitioned even the main street businesses which Im 6 kilometres away from to see if there were any objections.

I can have cattle, sheep, chooks, horses and as many dogs as pets or working as I want etc without council approval but I still needed a planning approval to use the land to breed a litter of puppies and I can never allow anyone else's dogs to stay here.

I wonder how long before they (as in whoever gets politicions to legislate this stuff)to decide the same will apply to any Cattle, sheep, chooks and horses?

I know I have seen on some horse forums, people demanding rules be in place to restrict horse breeding to stop the knackers having any to kill.

As well as the breeder of a foal must be responsible for it for life. Others who have bought one which turns out to be either unsound or have reached the point of being afraid of the horse get pilloried if they contemplate selling it, the message they get is you have made a life commitment when you bought it.

There are quite a few with this view.

Edited April 30, 2013 by inez