Nsw Companion Animal Taskforce

[Steve]

Would we be able to battle the term "commercial" based on ATO rulings ? The ATO is not interested in my "dog business" as it's would continually operate at a loss

Dont think that will do us much good - the terminology is the "business of breeding dogs" and its defined by anyone who breeds a litter whether we make a profit or not is not an issue.

[Ringo]

All the points mentioned above are what councils tell you in relation to breeding is how they consider the situation.

They are relying upon the NSW Local Environment Plan that each council must develop and they are all working from the same template for this plan with the same definitions for land zoning, activities etc. The idea is to have the whole state covered by the same zoning laws eventually. Have a look at your own local council website and and you will be able to see past LEPs and the current one either now in force or being developed (some councils are slower than others). For and individual council to change their LEP they must go to the department of planning & dept of local government & convince them they are special and need to have something specific for their area.

You can also view the template and the definitions it has on the department of local government website.

All planning decisions when contested by either party end up in the NSW Land & Environment Court (NSWLEC) and they give legal and binding decisions on how each party has interpreted the LEP and it's definitions.

To view these cases google '"New South Wales Case Law" which will bring up a website with various courts listed. Choose the Land & Environment Court option then search for dog breeding. It will list a number of cases, some relevant others not so. You need to read the decisions carefully to follow them, especially why the parties are in court. (ie the initial situation) The one I have spoken about is from 2011, decision handed down in 2012 from the north coast of NSW. But there are a number of other decisions which make interesting reading, especially the one about the two horses a woman had on a city block.

They also apply the same rules to rescue organisations as they '... board, train for a commercial purpose'- dogs/cats are sold for money.

BTW if anyone knows grey hound breeders/racers then tell them this report will affect them. At the moment they think they are solely governed by the Greyhound Racing Act and GRNSW own policies. - They actually comply with POCTA through these regulations and if these recommendations are introduced as law then they will be covered by them as 'breeders' and will need to be licenced. Guess that will be the end of greyhound racing in NSW.

Just think of all the ramifications of these recommendations :

Pet Food industry goes down hill as number of dogs, cats owned by people declines. Currently worth six billion Australia wide & growing weekly.

Number of vets declines, and then getting an appointment for rover will be like going to the doctor now - your appointment will be in three weeks time at 2pm !! Too bad for the dog/cat.

Insurance companies will suffer as pet insurance will decline with decline in number of pets

Council revenues decline as number of pets declines.

Number of associated industries for pets declines, no more on line stores, finding a pet barn will become harder as they hit the wall, no more mobile dog washes, no more personalised trainers for dogs.

And one for the Hunter Shooters, Fishers Party - no more hunting with dogs as it will be illegal to breed them unless you are a registered breeder hence no more 'pig dogs' hence no more hunting with them.

How about all the farmers & graziers who breed excellent working dogs, kelpies, cattle dogs, border collies - no licence to breed no breeding. So who works the sheep, cattle with/for the farmer - ten extra people ??? to do the same job.

The ADF takes all breeds of dogs some pedigree, others not for their work - guess that will decline as well, although as a Commonwealth organisation they are automatically exempt for most things, regardless of that other people think.

Peoples health declines as they no longer own cats/dogs and take part in activities with them - interesting recommendations abt tenannts and nursing homes (?) though

It took me two hours to come up with these side effects of the recommendations - some will have an affect sooner than later but eventually if this comes to be then they will all happen.

On the other hand maybe I'm just a born pessimist and the light of reason will be seen.

[Dogs Are Forever]

Thank goodness there is someone else who has taken the time to actually READ and search the documents in question. There is so much misinformation flying around and so much scaremongering. I am more alarmed by the mob mentality out there than by any proposed legislation. For your own sakes, please read the documents before jumping to conclusions.

PS: Thanks Corvus for providing a dose of much needed sanity!

As I have not as yet read the entire document (it is I believe 115 pages long) I can not say which pages they cam from. :)

I did a search for "kennel", "breeding", "breeding establishment" and "housing" and could not find anything that clearly stated all breeders would have to keep their dogs in kennel blocks and were not to be kept inside at all. The relevant section seemed to be referring to boarding kennels and shelters and commercial breeding establishments. I can't submit a response to this if I can't find any reference to it in the taskforce submission. DogsNSW doesn't seem particularly concerned about the kennels thing. Maybe people should read stuff before they start disseminating information and canvassing for support. Just saying.

[moosmum]

I know petitions don't get any where near the notice that individual submissions will,but if anyone is adept at creating an on-line petition it will still increase support. It could go a long way to supporting a hobby breeders stance.

Many won't take the time or have confidence to make their own submission.

A rough idea below if anyone is more capable of doing this. I've worded it to be understood and of interest to anyone who keeps a companion animal,so it could be posted on any forum for signatures.Still editing and refining but might lose my internet soon so apologies for the blunder.

The recommendations in their present form leave much of the distinction between a hobby breeder or a commercial breeder to the interpretation of the local councils,planning and enforcement agencies. Compliance will increase among Commercial breeders,who will be stringently monitored.The costs and administration to comply, and of monitoring breeders will require an increasing commercial outlook - There is insufficient room for breeders with goals other than financial,unless cost is no object.

That means that if a breeder doesn't have ready capital to support their "hobby" as an enthusiast, They will be squeezed out of the market. It will be much more profitable for those who approach breeding from a purely commercial perspective,so commercial breeders will increase to fill the gap.

These recommendations do nothing to increase the understanding and sense of responsibility for purely pet owners. They reinforce the idea of pets as commodities,through increased administration,fees and licensing required to finance the clean up after their mistakes.

I don't believe this is the outcome society wants from this initiative.

The over whelming sentiment from the original submissions was that companion animal welfare should be a whole community effort.

With that in mind,I believe that any compulsory breeder licensing system MUST be a community run/user owned system,able to give back to its members and promote the sense of community needed for open discussion and change into the future.

With enforcement of current legislation, a long over due Animal Sciences curriculum in our schools,and an unaffiliated community forum that encourages ALL parties to discuss the issues of companion animals,I believe a more responsible change in community attitudes will evolve.

The recommendations as they stand will instead fix future direction and encourage an increasingly superficial understanding of living with companion animals.The need for future legislation will increase.

Financial penalties and increased burden for breeders who comply will reduce the number of breeders,but not the quantity of animals bred.They will not increase the expertise and experience of breeders. They will not ensure dogs are bred raised and proved in same situation they bred for.

Loosing internet.

Edited April 19, 2013 by moosmum

[WreckitWhippet]

Thank goodness there is someone else who has taken the time to actually READ and search the documents in question. There is so much misinformation flying around and so much scaremongering. I am more alarmed by the mob mentality out there than by any proposed legislation. For your own sakes, please read the documents before jumping to conclusions.

PS: Thanks Corvus for providing a dose of much needed sanity!

As I have not as yet read the entire document (it is I believe 115 pages long) I can not say which pages they cam from. :)

I did a search for "kennel", "breeding", "breeding establishment" and "housing" and could not find anything that clearly stated all breeders would have to keep their dogs in kennel blocks and were not to be kept inside at all. The relevant section seemed to be referring to boarding kennels and shelters and commercial breeding establishments. I can't submit a response to this if I can't find any reference to it in the taskforce submission. DogsNSW doesn't seem particularly concerned about the kennels thing. Maybe people should read stuff before they start disseminating information and canvassing for support. Just saying.

I did read it, a couple of times infact and the more I read, the more alarming I find it and to be honest if this goes through, I may as well pack it all in .

[Elenbah]

All the points mentioned above are what councils tell you in relation to breeding is how they consider the situation.

They are relying upon the NSW Local Environment Plan that each council must develop and they are all working from the same template for this plan with the same definitions for land zoning, activities etc. The idea is to have the whole state covered by the same zoning laws eventually. Have a look at your own local council website and and you will be able to see past LEPs and the current one either now in force or being developed (some councils are slower than others). For and individual council to change their LEP they must go to the department of planning & dept of local government & convince them they are special and need to have something specific for their area.

You can also view the template and the definitions it has on the department of local government website.

All planning decisions when contested by either party end up in the NSW Land & Environment Court (NSWLEC) and they give legal and binding decisions on how each party has interpreted the LEP and it's definitions.

To view these cases google '"New South Wales Case Law" which will bring up a website with various courts listed. Choose the Land & Environment Court option then search for dog breeding. It will list a number of cases, some relevant others not so. You need to read the decisions carefully to follow them, especially why the parties are in court. (ie the initial situation) The one I have spoken about is from 2011, decision handed down in 2012 from the north coast of NSW. But there are a number of other decisions which make interesting reading, especially the one about the two horses a woman had on a city block.

They also apply the same rules to rescue organisations as they '... board, train for a commercial purpose'- dogs/cats are sold for money.

BTW if anyone knows grey hound breeders/racers then tell them this report will affect them. At the moment they think they are solely governed by the Greyhound Racing Act and GRNSW own policies. - They actually comply with POCTA through these regulations and if these recommendations are introduced as law then they will be covered by them as 'breeders' and will need to be licenced. Guess that will be the end of greyhound racing in NSW.

Just think of all the ramifications of these recommendations :

Pet Food industry goes down hill as number of dogs, cats owned by people declines. Currently worth six billion Australia wide & growing weekly.

Number of vets declines, and then getting an appointment for rover will be like going to the doctor now - your appointment will be in three weeks time at 2pm !! Too bad for the dog/cat.

Insurance companies will suffer as pet insurance will decline with decline in number of pets

Council revenues decline as number of pets declines.

Number of associated industries for pets declines, no more on line stores, finding a pet barn will become harder as they hit the wall, no more mobile dog washes, no more personalised trainers for dogs.

And one for the Hunter Shooters, Fishers Party - no more hunting with dogs as it will be illegal to breed them unless you are a registered breeder hence no more 'pig dogs' hence no more hunting with them.

How about all the farmers & graziers who breed excellent working dogs, kelpies, cattle dogs, border collies - no licence to breed no breeding. So who works the sheep, cattle with/for the farmer - ten extra people ??? to do the same job.

The ADF takes all breeds of dogs some pedigree, others not for their work - guess that will decline as well, although as a Commonwealth organisation they are automatically exempt for most things, regardless of that other people think.

Peoples health declines as they no longer own cats/dogs and take part in activities with them - interesting recommendations abt tenannts and nursing homes (?) though

It took me two hours to come up with these side effects of the recommendations - some will have an affect sooner than later but eventually if this comes to be then they will all happen.

On the other hand maybe I'm just a born pessimist and the light of reason will be seen.

OMG.! Ringo, it's looking bleaker and bleaker.!... The Government would be cutting their own throat if they were to pass this..... Are they so blind???????... Would it be OK if I cross-post this?

Edited April 19, 2013 by Elenbah

[oakway]

Thank goodness there is someone else who has taken the time to actually READ and search the documents in question. There is so much misinformation flying around and so much scaremongering. I am more alarmed by the mob mentality out there than by any proposed legislation. For your own sakes, please read the documents before jumping to conclusions.

PS: Thanks Corvus for providing a dose of much needed sanity!

As I have not as yet read the entire document (it is I believe 115 pages long) I can not say which pages they cam from. :)

I did a search for "kennel", "breeding", "breeding establishment" and "housing" and could not find anything that clearly stated all breeders would have to keep their dogs in kennel blocks and were not to be kept inside at all. The relevant section seemed to be referring to boarding kennels and shelters and commercial breeding establishments. I can't submit a response to this if I can't find any reference to it in the taskforce submission. DogsNSW doesn't seem particularly concerned about the kennels thing. Maybe people should read stuff before they start disseminating information and canvassing for support. Just saying.

I did read it, a couple of times infact and the more I read, the more alarming I find it and to be honest if this goes through, I may as well pack it all in .

Yes, we may as well all pack it in. If what is being said becomes reality we shall all have no choice but to say bye, bye Dog World.

The majority of us do not have the finances to comply nor will many of those just joining the ranks of the dog world.

Just think how much you "may" have to pay for a Registered Pure Bred Puppy from an Ethical Registered Breeder.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Thank goodness there is someone else who has taken the time to actually READ and search the documents in question. There is so much misinformation flying around and so much scaremongering. I am more alarmed by the mob mentality out there than by any proposed legislation. For your own sakes, please read the documents before jumping to conclusions.

PS: Thanks Corvus for providing a dose of much needed sanity!

As I have not as yet read the entire document (it is I believe 115 pages long) I can not say which pages they cam from. :)

I did a search for "kennel", "breeding", "breeding establishment" and "housing" and could not find anything that clearly stated all breeders would have to keep their dogs in kennel blocks and were not to be kept inside at all. The relevant section seemed to be referring to boarding kennels and shelters and commercial breeding establishments. I can't submit a response to this if I can't find any reference to it in the taskforce submission. DogsNSW doesn't seem particularly concerned about the kennels thing. Maybe people should read stuff before they start disseminating information and canvassing for support. Just saying.

Are you a breeder? I'm guessing not because you don't seem to have a problem with this. People with a lot more knowledge on this subject than me have scrutinised and one person saying it isn't true doesn't make them right. It's real enough that dogsNSW are finally mobilising on this, dogsVic are also starting to sit up because their state is next.

[corvus]

I browsed through the Animal Welfare Code of Practice as well and I still couldn't figure out where this kennel business was coming from. If people want their comments to be taken seriously they will need to refer to stuff they object to that is in writing in the relevant documents. I'm happy to submit a comment, and I would cite some science to support my objections, but I have already spent more time than I really have spare looking for something concrete to object to. I would appreciate it if someone could provide a page number and document.

It's probably a good idea not to sound hysterical and leap to conclusions. Dire predictions are something people reviewing public comments are sure to see every day. If you think it's going to result in something dire, do the calculations to show it and make sure your numbers are supported. And make sure your submission shows where the numbers came from.

[WreckitWhippet]

Thank goodness there is someone else who has taken the time to actually READ and search the documents in question. There is so much misinformation flying around and so much scaremongering. I am more alarmed by the mob mentality out there than by any proposed legislation. For your own sakes, please read the documents before jumping to conclusions.

PS: Thanks Corvus for providing a dose of much needed sanity!

As I have not as yet read the entire document (it is I believe 115 pages long) I can not say which pages they cam from. :)

I did a search for "kennel", "breeding", "breeding establishment" and "housing" and could not find anything that clearly stated all breeders would have to keep their dogs in kennel blocks and were not to be kept inside at all. The relevant section seemed to be referring to boarding kennels and shelters and commercial breeding establishments. I can't submit a response to this if I can't find any reference to it in the taskforce submission. DogsNSW doesn't seem particularly concerned about the kennels thing. Maybe people should read stuff before they start disseminating information and canvassing for support. Just saying.

I did read it, a couple of times infact and the more I read, the more alarming I find it and to be honest if this goes through, I may as well pack it all in .

Yes, we may as well all pack it in. If what is being said becomes reality we shall all have no choice but to say bye, bye Dog World.

The majority of us do not have the finances to comply nor will many of those just joining the ranks of the dog world.

Just think how much you "may" have to pay for a Registered Pure Bred Puppy from an Ethical Registered Breeder.

I could probably comply with the kennel requirements but that's not how I want my dogs to live and it's certainly not the way I want to raise my puppies, nor do I want to be told what someone else thinks is best for the dogs that I live with day in and day out, especially when they most likely haven't ever bred a dog.

[oakway]

We must always stop and think of the many pensioners and persons that rent, that could not comply with these new regulations that have been been the stalwarts of some of our dog breeds.

[brintey]

HI Corvus, the problem isn't in the Animal Welfare codes and practices itself, its in the standards which say you must have council compliance....Councils impose the kennelling restrictions and the zoning, have a look at Steve's links earlier.

What I want to know is why can't we fight the definition of commercial with the Land & Environment people on a statewide basis, we are then not lumped in with commercial breeders and boarding kennels, and none of the council restrictions from zoning to kennel blocks apply?

[Are You Serious Jo]

HI Corvus, the problem isn't in the Animal Welfare codes and practices itself, its in the standards which say you must have council compliance....Councils impose the kennelling restrictions and the zoning, have a look at Steve's links earlier.

What I want to know is why can't we fight the definition of commercial with the Land & Environment people on a statewide basis, we are then not lumped in with commercial breeders and boarding kennels, and none of the council restrictions from zoning to kennel blocks apply?

I think this needs highlighting for those who can't see the problem.

[corvus]

HI Corvus, the problem isn't in the Animal Welfare codes and practices itself, its in the standards which say you must have council compliance....Councils impose the kennelling restrictions and the zoning, have a look at Steve's links earlier.

So... It's no different except the council's regulations are suddenly going to be enforced?

[Jed]

Oakway

Just think how much you "may" have to pay for a Registered Pure Bred Puppy from an Ethical Registered Breeder.

Probably wont matter. There wont be any around.

When breeding a litter becomes x4 more than the returns, only the wealthy and really obsessed will continue.

The idea of this legislation is to remove dogs from pet ownership. Full stop.

Pitbulls

docking

all reduced numbers available, and AR found that via legislation, they could win, as no one would stand against them, because no one had a pitbull, and docking is cruel, so now they are going towards the end goal.

[brintey]

HI Corvus, the problem isn't in the Animal Welfare codes and practices itself, its in the standards which say you must have council compliance....Councils impose the kennelling restrictions and the zoning, have a look at Steve's links earlier.

So... It's no different except the council's regulations are suddenly going to be enforced?

In the issue of kennelling and zoning, yes I believe that to be the case.

I still believe the easiest way for common sense to prevail is iif we can change the definition of commercial breeder with the Land & Environment on a statewide basis then we won't have to worry about building kennels we won't use or moving house and changing jobs. How you would go about doing this I have no idea, anyone have any suggestions?

(There are of course other issues with the proposed legislation Corvus, such as the RSPCA policing DogsNSW registered breeders, which as I see it is a bit like letting the Liberal Party police the Labor party or vice versa!)

[yarracully]

We must always stop and think of the many pensioners and persons that rent, that could not comply with these new regulations that have been been the stalwarts of some of our dog breeds.

Rather an ironic statement Oakway especially when one of the recommendations is to look at ways to make it easier for people with pets to get rental properties

[nowstarin]

We must always stop and think of the many pensioners and persons that rent, that could not comply with these new regulations that have been been the stalwarts of some of our dog breeds.

Rather an ironic statement Oakway especially when one of the recommendations is to look at ways to make it easier for people with pets to get rental properties

Renters with Pets will most certainly benefit from the proposed changes re Landlords not being able to refuse tenants Pets as per their tenant conditions ( Many dogs are turned to the Pounds due to Landlords saying "dog goes or you go"

HOWEVER I think Oakway was talking about Dogs NSW members that rent ie BREEDERS that would not comply to the kennel requirements of the new proposal. Many of the Stalwarts and Pioneers of dog breeding or exhibition may rent their premises NOT own them.

THey will be severely hampered.

Edited April 20, 2013 by nowstarin

[Ringo]

As has been said before yes local councils in NSW impose building codes upon development they have control over.

These are outlined in the Local Government Act (LGA) & Local Environment Plan (LEP) for each council.

Councils have been defined in the New South Wales Land & Environment Court (NSWLEC) as Consent Authorities

ie They are able to consent or not to development that comes under their control. These as I have said are outlined in the LGA and LEP.

The NSWLEC HAS drawn a distinction between '... dog boarding, breeding, training for a commercial purposes' and the same activity that is NOT for a commercial purpose. In other words they have told councils that as the dog breeding, boarding, training is NOT for a commercial purpose they do not have any control over the activities, therefore in such circumstances they cannot prohibit or allow it at their discretion as it is an activity that does not come under their control. Most councils don't like this and continue to tell people the reverse. I have even read where they have declined other development that also does not come under their control but people have not appealed the matters to the NSWLEC.

To find out these court decisions, which are binding interpretations of the legislation as the NSWLEC is able to set what is defined as case law, search for NSW Case Law, choose the Land & Environment Court from the court list and search for dog breeding. You will be able to read about developments that ended up here.

And remember the shelters you have for your dogs are not permanent structures, they are to comply with POCTA which is defined more in the Guidelines for Breeding Cats/Dogs issued by the department of primary industries and they do not change the original land use for your block of ground.

[brintey]

As has been said before yes local councils in NSW impose building codes upon development they have control over.

These are outlined in the Local Government Act (LGA) & Local Environment Plan (LEP) for each council.

Councils have been defined in the New South Wales Land & Environment Court (NSWLEC) as Consent Authorities

ie They are able to consent or not to development that comes under their control. These as I have said are outlined in the LGA and LEP.

The NSWLEC HAS drawn a distinction between '... dog boarding, breeding, training for a commercial purposes' and the same activity that is NOT for a commercial purpose. In other words they have told councils that as the dog breeding, boarding, training is NOT for a commercial purpose they do not have any control over the activities, therefore in such circumstances they cannot prohibit or allow it at their discretion as it is an activity that does not come under their control. Most councils don't like this and continue to tell people the reverse. I have even read where they have declined other development that also does not come under their control but people have not appealed the matters to the NSWLEC.

To find out these court decisions, which are binding interpretations of the legislation as the NSWLEC is able to set what is defined as case law, search for NSW Case Law, choose the Land & Environment Court from the court list and search for dog breeding. You will be able to read about developments that ended up here.

And remember the shelters you have for your dogs are not permanent structures, they are to comply with POCTA which is defined more in the Guidelines for Breeding Cats/Dogs issued by the department of primary industries and they do not change the original land use for your block of ground.

Thankyou Ringo that is very comprehensive, now I am on a real computer and not and iPad I will do some searching and look for the relevant cases to show to my council (and ease my mind!)

Do you know if DOGSNSW aware of this? At the meeting last Saturday one of the solicitors who spoke seemed to think like the council, that anyone who charged money for a puppy was defined as commercial.

My shelter for my dogs is my house which is a pretty permanent structure!