Nsw Companion Animal Taskforce

[Lhok]

Im currently in the process of writing to my local member. He's going over to Europe for an ANZAC service next week, but I'm going to try and meet with him as well.

I've got a couple of (registered) cat breeders as customers of mine as well that Im hoping will stand beside me in our little local fight.

I'm not a breeder but a member of DogsNSW and in your area. I'd be happy to help :)

--Lhok

[Sheridan]

As I have not as yet read the entire document (it is I believe 115 pages long) I can not say which pages they cam from. :)

I did a search for "kennel", "breeding", "breeding establishment" and "housing" and could not find anything that clearly stated all breeders would have to keep their dogs in kennel blocks and were not to be kept inside at all. The relevant section seemed to be referring to boarding kennels and shelters and commercial breeding establishments. I can't submit a response to this if I can't find any reference to it in the taskforce submission. DogsNSW doesn't seem particularly concerned about the kennels thing. Maybe people should read stuff before they start disseminating information and canvassing for support. Just saying.

Isn't the concern that hobby breeders will be lumped in with commercial breeders?

[espinay2]

They already are in the code of practice.

[Elenbah]

Up until now Dogs NSW breeders have been considered as hobbyists. Although we abide by the AWL Code of Practice Breeding Dogs and Cats certain parts have been Guidelines and not enforceable, that has allowed us to still have our dogs as pets first and live in houses as pets... They want to change that. Which in essence changes our pets to livestock. (Dept. of Primary Industries)

If you go to page 6 of the 155page recommendations and you have to read it slowly to digest it, it says every breeder must acquire a Breeders Licence, although if you only want one litter or plan a litter you may obtain a Licence at a reduced rate...... But.!... in order to obtain that Licence they have to know that your breeders premises will be in compliance with your local councils Development Control Requirements. (which have all been updated to mean your breeding establishment, must comply with their commercial boarding/breeding requirements)... You have to read between the lines.

Our now hobby will be classified as a business even if we only sell one puppy....

[Steve]

Our hobby in NSW has been classified as a business for as long as I can remember - in that regard there isnt anything new here.

The current standards and guidelines are about everyone who ever has a litter of puppies and they are asking that the guidelines within that are made laws and not seen as optional.

We have always been supposed to have a DA to breed puppies from our premises even if we only had one litter ,though most didnt and only found this out when council or RSPCA came calling. Many breeders and rescue in NSW have had to comply with building regulations and RSPCA policy for housing etc which is not easy to see in codes or in this task force document. It is within these regulations and laws which compel us to things which are difficult to ascertain because theoretically each is taken on a case by case basis and in the main you cant just go along to the council websites and see what is required, or ring and ask what is required. Most people who are small hobby breeders dont have a clue until they are given a list of things they need to do in a short time frame to comply .Im assuming what oakway has put up is not in the task force document but is covered in council DA requirements or RSPCA / AWL policy.

if people have to have a licence and be inspected before they are able to get the nod to be able to breed puppies from their premises then in order to comply they will need to have these things in place which theoretically they already needed and dont think its only large commercial breeders because Ive witnessed this with a person who owned three beagles who had to build housing 15 metres from their dwelling etc. So having to do the things in Oakways post are already there its just that most dont do it and didnt know they had to do it - that bit isnt new. But the licencing of breeders before they can breed dogs which is including inspections means DAs are required and compliance is on the table for approval to breed.

The fact that at the roundtable meeting the only breeder group which was in favour of breeder licences was the commercial breeders group is telling - because they already have their licences and DA's.

The position the people who want this are coming from is that breeders dont comply with such things and they only know this after a complaint so they want all breeders passing these requirements before they issue licences. We assume when we read it that a complaint means they are filthy or overcrowded etc - if we are doing nothing wrong what do we have to hide - but most hobby breeders will not fit the requirements and they are fighting pretty hard against any exemptions for Dogs NSW members. In fact within that document it is expressly saying no exemptions.

[Steve]

No difference between a breeder who breeds one litter a year and one that breeds a 100. They want AWL and RSPCA to have full access to the registry details.They dont want any organisation's members to be given any exemptions They want all of the guidelines made laws - these are the really stupid things such as having to feed every pup out of its own bowl , not putting a litter tray in the same room as a water bowl etcThey want a licence for anyone who has a litter And they want everyone who wants to breed a dog to have a cert 11 in animal studies.So right now in NSW breeders can register their dogs once in their life time and they can breed a dog without a licence fee.they are out in the open because they do these things. Bring in yearly licence fees and all the rest of it and one of a couple of things will happen = small breeders will chuck it in because they cant afford it , breeders will breed more to get back their investment and again commercial breeders do it easier.Supply and demand hasnt been impacted so stop small breeders and more big breeders flourish. The rotten ones or the ones who decide to break the laws will dig in deep and be harder to spot.More dogs in big breeding establishment , more dogs in dodgy outback breeding sheds and no positive impact on dogs suffering or on impound numbers.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Steve

[Steve]

1: A breeder licensing system should be established and the Companion Animals Register should be updated to capture breeder license information for each animal record. (CA Report p.6).

There is no need to introduce a licencing system for breeders to be able to accomplish this outcome.

Micro chip laws state the animal has to be chipped when it is sold or when it is 12 weeks old.All you need to do is ensure the animal has to be chipped first and foremost into the breeders name and address with no exemptions. All that takes is a simple small admission to the chip forms.

The system is already in place why not tweak it rather than complicate it and make it harder to police and more costly?

Recommendation 2: The Animal Welfare Code of Practice - Breeding Dogs and Cats should be revised to ensure that the existing guidelines it contains become enforceable standards. (CA Report p.8)

Not only are many of the guidelines not based on science, they are impossible to police.Many of them are not suited to small hobby breeders and or some breeds. This would advantage large scale commercial breeders and disadvantage small hobby breeders - with those who keep animals is poor conditions even more likely to go underground to avoid detection. People who own a few dogs which live as part of the family which they occasionally breed cannot be expected to treat their animals under the same conditions as someone who has 100 dogs. You end up with small breeders finding it all too hard because they are motivated by love of a breed and their dogs or passion not money ,and with more people investing more money needing to breed more dogs to pay for it . Until you make a distinction between a hobby breeder and a large scale commercial breeder you will continue to advantage large scale breeders with over regulation and all you do is create more scoff laws.

Recommendation 3: Relevant animal welfare codes of practice should be amended to require the sellers of cats and dogs to display an animal's microchip number (or the license number of the breeder of an animal) in all advertisements, and at point of sale in the case of pet shops, markets and fairs. (CA Report p.9)

Small scale breeders need to advertise their individual puppies more than large scale breeders as large scale breeders advertise their businesses where it is known puppies are available or they sell in bulk to pet shops and dealers. Small scale breeders also need to advertise their puppies when they are born- weeks before home time to ensure they find homes for the pups.If we have to have a chip number to advertise this means we cant advertise until the puppies are older and have been chipped.It increases the risk that puppies will not be sold until much later than is ideal for them to be in their new homes. Larger scale commercial breeders are advantaged over small hobby breeders as they can more readily afford any licences and later or no advertising of individual puppies. Also there is no evidence that this system is working in Victoria or the Gold Coast where it has already been introduced. Breeders are still advertising with no numbers and no one is policing it - because its virtually impossible to police. Current laws say all puppies have to be chipped at point of sale.Police the laws we have.

Recommendation 8: The Companion Animals Act should be amended to require cats and dogs to be registered on an annual basis. (CA Report p.16)

The number of animals which are currently registered is due in part to breeders who follow the current laws and microchip their puppies and change them into the new owner's name.Council are then able to follow up to ensure they are registered at 6 months. Information on the data base which is out of date is largely due to people who move and don't update their details which they can do for free. If they don't change their details for free and without fear that they will have to pay a fee yearly they will be less likely to do so when changing their details means council knows where they are and they have to pay a yearly fee which they may avoid if they don't change them? I'm assuming that yearly registrations will be less than they are now and in line with other states which have a yearly fee.With extra administration costs,and more costs required to police them surely its a much more viable solution to simply put up the current fees a little,and police the laws and issue fines for the laws we already have.

Yearly registrations have not proven in states where these exist to cut down on dangerous dogs or to give a greater compliance or impound numbers.

Many people now have dogs which they made decisions on owning based on a once only registration fee if this becomes a yearly fee there is an increased probability that some of these dogs will be surrendered as the families may not be able to find the yearly fees.

[_PL_]

No difference between a breeder who breeds one litter a year and one that breeds a 100. They want AWL and RSPCA to have full access to the registry details.They dont want any organisation's members to be given any exemptions They want all of the guidelines made laws - these are the really stupid things such as having to feed every pup out of its own bowl , not putting a litter tray in the same room as a water bowl etcThey want a licence for anyone who has a litter And they want everyone who wants to breed a dog to have a cert 11 in animal studies.So right now in NSW breeders can register their dogs once in their life time and they can breed a dog without a licence fee.they are out in the open because they do these things. Bring in yearly licence fees and all the rest of it and one of a couple of things will happen = small breeders will chuck it in because they cant afford it , breeders will breed more to get back their investment and again commercial breeders do it easier.Supply and demand hasnt been impacted so stop small breeders and more big breeders flourish. The rotten ones or the ones who decide to break the laws will dig in deep and be harder to spot.More dogs in big breeding establishment , more dogs in dodgy outback breeding sheds and no positive impact on dogs suffering or on impound numbers.

That's exactly what worries me. It's not feasible or reasonable for quiet little hobbyists who make a negligible impact on the national dog population numbers anyway. If this comes in and doesn't cause a spike in pretty crossbreeds being bred/sold/impounded or shipped over the borders for chipping in other registries then I'll be very very surprised.

And from a rescue point of view we're next because we have no self regulation whatsoever.

[Elenbah]

Loved your posts Steve, even if after 17 years it has been bought to my attention that I have been in breech of Regulations. I never have and never will consider my kids as livestock. I don't consider myself even a commercial breeder either, for that you would have to be breeding for the sole purpose of making money.!

In my breed, Papillons that would be a hard ask... As in a lot of breeds, the demand is there for puppies but not the supply unless you are willing to wait for sometimes up to two years for a pup. Unfortunately, many are not willing to wait, and that's where the puppy farmers come in.... I wish there were an answer.

I think the Government is so naive to believe that what they are proposing in this Legislation is going to "fix" the problem of huge numbers of dogs finding their way into to pounds and shelters each year (but we all know who has been whispering into their ears for so long, don't we)and if the pounds and shelters statistics of dogs were actually accurate instead of if this dog looks like a GSD therefore it must be a pure bred, then you would find very few pure breeds amongst their statistics... With nearly breed club having their own rescue, those pure bred dogs don't generally stay their long... We are not the problem, please don't make us the scapegoat...I believe, that if they do introduce this legislation as it is, with yearly registrations at an inflated price, pounds and shelters will not know what's hit them... it will be virtually raining cats and dogs.!

And the only winners?...... You guessed it.!!!!!!

[Are You Serious Jo]

That's right, it does nothing to address the issue of why so many dogs end up in pounds. I would hazard a guess there will be even more because the PFs will take up any slack left from registered breeders, so more PF dogs out there. We know PFs don't care who gets their puppies so those with dogs they aren't really prepared for will still end up in pounds. BYBers will just fly under the radar, all those generic brindle staffy types will still be there long after the registered breeders have walked away.

[brintey]

I read through the Animal Welfare Code of Practices for breeding dogs and cats and nowhere could I find anything which said you have to have kennel blocks... can you tell me where it is please? I must be missing it in the small print!

I did however ring my council and the planning officer was quite adamant that whether I have one breeding dog or one hundred, and whether I make any money from breeding or not, I am classified as a commercial breeder and thus must comply with the same regulations as boarding kennels. In the suburban and semi-rural part of my Shire this was strictly not zoned for and the only place I could apply would be if I lived in the rural part of the Shire (which I couldn't do and keep my city job, unless I had my own helicopter).

It seems like what we need to do is to get hobby breeding with small numbers of dogs/litters reclassified as non-commercial, we would then not fall under these council restrictions. Ringo, did you say there was a precendent for this in 2012?

I should say I don't mind being inspected, they can do it every year if they like, I can even save $300 if I know in advance the bill is coming, but they will be inspecting a suburban house not a kennel block!

[indigirl]

I also haven't found the part about where you have to have a kennel complex. In fact the breeder code states a house or room or backyard is fine as gives min sizes for forementioned areas required by diff size dogs. They say you need a separate whelping area but it can be a room in a house.

[brintey]

And to add insult to injury the NSW Land & Environment Court has already given a ruling in a matter in 2012 that in simple terms distinguished between "dog breeding, boarding, kennelling for commercial purposes" and one that was not for commercial purpose. As should be done when this bill is formulated the INTENT of the person undertaking the activity is the most important thing and was one thing the NSW LEC highlighted. To paraphrase part of the finding, '.. one would expect the same activities to be undertaken with respect to dog breeding, etc for a commercial purpose and one that was not ...'. In other words it is what your intent is with the activity and I have come across only a few people who would make money from this activity and could be deemed to be undertaking it for a commercial purpose.

One of the litigants was, surprisingly a local council trying to rectify their own error which back fired on them. The case is at time mentioned in general terms as a 'problem' by some of the parties involved in this working group and is mentioned in part of the documents made public by the working group. The problem would appear to that it has finally defined an activity they want considered as a commercial enterprise.

So worse case parts of the bill may end up being challenged in court if things turn pear shaped.

Hi Ringo, I looked up here: http://www.lec.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lec/judgments.html#Online_judgments_ to try and find the case but couldn't. Could you please let me know more details of the case so I can find it and take it to my local council? They did tell me to seek legal advice about the definition of commercial breeding so maybe they have some prior knowledge of the case already.

[Steve]

You wont find it in the codes - this is what has been so frustrating when those who have been ordered to do these things have been presented with it.It is within the planning regs and policy for operating a business from home and RSPCA and AWL policy. I can give you dozens of examples where breeders with only a couple of dogs have had to comply with planning laws they didnt know existed because in a DA unless an specific activity is ruled out altogether in that zone each case is taken on a case by case basis.

You will need to contact your council and ask the PLANNING department what you will require to do to make a DA for allowance for breeding dogs on your property. Then if you can get a look at the RSPCA and AWL policy on such things.

Personally I question how they can call everyone who breeds a litter of puppies in the business of breeding when the ATO wont allow us to have an ABN or operate as a business because we have no intent to make a profit. If the ATO allowed us to this would mean all of our taxable income would drop down and we could claim all of our expenses as tax deductions. As most of us spend much more than we make each year it could off set our income.seems to me they want it both ways and the state laws contradict federal laws which they are not supposed to be able to do. There is also a question of free and reasonable use of our properties and our right to privacy - though all of that is not going to help us now.

[_PL_]

Code of Practice Definitions:

Breeding means the business of breeding of litters of animals for sale.

From what I can see: one word could be all it takes.

No specified difference between large and small scale. Registered business or casual hobby.

Breeding is referred to as a business, businesses have to comply with codes.

And Codes can change

The Code is neither a complete manual on animal husbandry, nor a static document. It will be revised from time to time to take into account new knowledge of animal physiology and behaviour, technological advances, developments in standards of animal welfare and changing community attitudes and expectations about the humane treatment of animals.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Powerlegs

[Diva]

You wont find it in the codes - this is what has been so frustrating when those who have been ordered to do these things have been presented with it.It is within the planning regs and policy for operating a business from home and RSPCA and AWL policy. I can give you dozens of examples where breeders with only a couple of dogs have had to comply with planning laws they didnt know existed because in a DA unless an specific activity is ruled out altogether in that zone each case is taken on a case by case basis.

You will need to contact your council and ask the PLANNING department what you will require to do to make a DA for allowance for breeding dogs on your property. Then if you can get a look at the RSPCA and AWL policy on such things.

This is one of the most concerning aspects, not enough transparency and too much left to the individual discretion of an RSPCA or AWL inspector who is not from a govt agency and therefore not bound by the usual administrative and other appeals processes. Lots of little rules to trip ordinary people up with red tape but but not enough focus on the important outcome - breeding good healthy dogs. I do wonder if that is because the real intended outcome is not good breeding, but no breeding. I have had my eye on a property in NSW, I think I will sit tight where I am and wait and see how things go.

[Elenbah]

I read through the Animal Welfare Code of Practices for breeding dogs and cats and nowhere could I find anything which said you have to have kennel blocks... can you tell me where it is please? I must be missing it in the small print!

I did however ring my council and the planning officer was quite adamant that whether I have one breeding dog or one hundred, and whether I make any money from breeding or not, I am classified as a commercial breeder and thus must comply with the same regulations as boarding kennels. In the suburban and semi-rural part of my Shire this was strictly not zoned for and the only place I could apply would be if I lived in the rural part of the Shire (which I couldn't do and keep my city job, unless I had my own helicopter).

It seems like what we need to do is to get hobby breeding with small numbers of dogs/litters reclassified as non-commercial, we would then not fall under these council restrictions. Ringo, did you say there was a precendent for this in 2012?

I should say I don't mind being inspected, they can do it every year if they like, I can even save $300 if I know in advance the bill is coming, but they will be inspecting a suburban house not a kennel block!

Just out of curiosity,... When I first moved into where i am now back in 1998 I had 4 shelties. Council Regulations were for 2x dogs but I contacted them and the Ranger came out and inspected my house(which would be considered urban)& yard (that has no kennels) and I got permission to keep up to 4 dogs and a litter of pups up till 6 months... Could that permission now be revoked? or am I a lucky beggar I wonder.....

[Steve]

I read through the Animal Welfare Code of Practices for breeding dogs and cats and nowhere could I find anything which said you have to have kennel blocks... can you tell me where it is please? I must be missing it in the small print!

I did however ring my council and the planning officer was quite adamant that whether I have one breeding dog or one hundred, and whether I make any money from breeding or not, I am classified as a commercial breeder and thus must comply with the same regulations as boarding kennels. In the suburban and semi-rural part of my Shire this was strictly not zoned for and the only place I could apply would be if I lived in the rural part of the Shire (which I couldn't do and keep my city job, unless I had my own helicopter).

It seems like what we need to do is to get hobby breeding with small numbers of dogs/litters reclassified as non-commercial, we would then not fall under these council restrictions. Ringo, did you say there was a precendent for this in 2012?

I should say I don't mind being inspected, they can do it every year if they like, I can even save $300 if I know in advance the bill is coming, but they will be inspecting a suburban house not a kennel block!

Just out of curiosity,... When I first moved into where i am now back in 1998 I had 4 shelties. Council Regulations were for 2x dogs but I contacted them and the Ranger came out and inspected my house(which would be considered urban)& yard (that has no kennels) and I got permission to keep up to 4 dogs and a litter of pups up till 6 months... Could that permission now be revoked? or am I a lucky beggar I wonder.....

No you will need to comply with requirements for keeping breeding dogs .In NSW there is no restriction on how many dogs you own unless they are breeding dogs here is an example of one council requirements - notice

For Dogs, commercial includes the operation of a boarding kennel and/or a breeding or training establishment and/or the keeping of dogs for breeding, convalescence, training, racing and/or sale.

http://visitdungog.com.au/dungog-business/d_agg_catteries.html

[WreckitWhippet]

Would we be able to battle the term "commercial" based on ATO rulings ? The ATO is not interested in my "dog business" as it's would continually operate at a loss

[Steve]

this one is for Wollongong

http://www.wollongong.nsw.gov.au/council/governance/Policies/Chapter%20B7%20-%20Development%20in%20Rural%20Zones.pdf