A Dog Killed

[frufru]

What an absolutely terrifying way for an owner to lose an elderly dog. :cry:

Edited April 15, 2013 by frufru

[Rosetta]

Please can't we just have some compassion for this poor little dog who suffered so much and its owner who will be affected by this forever I should imagine.

It seems sympathy for old poodles who meet traumatic ends is limited

Questions about what role the owner's actions might have played in the attack does not have a thing to do with sympathy for the poodle.

Comments like the ones above are counter-productive to any conversation that isn't "how sad, terrible bull breed and poor poodle" and to be blunt, trollish.

What a ludicrous statement - are you for real? I don't recall anyone mentioning breed - only you. I don't think you have any sympathy for the little dog killed at all.

I will not read any more of this thread - I can see the way it is going. Some attitudes are just plain disgusting.

[Salukifan]

Thank you so much for policing my opinion for me. Clearly, "very unfortunate" did not sufficiently convey how unfortunate I thought the incident. How does "extremely unfortunate" work for you?

Policing? Hey, Im not the person who used the word "trolling" about anothers' post, now am I?

You know I reckon if people focussed more on the damage some dogs do and less on the reasons for the attacks that happen, we'd have safer communities. A bite is a bite, An attack is an attack (as happened to Aloysha last night). For the most part, from where I sit, analysing the "whys" of such incidents doesn't make the dogs safer. And I'm as guilty of that analysing as anyone.

Some folk may not have a problem with a dog that will deglove the face of an elderly little dog. I'm not among their number. If you want to own the kind of dog that will do this then you need to house it responsibly.

To be quite frank why anyone gives their dog access to the front fence of their property beats the hell out of me. People come through gates, dogs are easy targets for theft., unwelcome behaviours such as barking and fence rushing passers by abound.

And as for the bull breed issue? I've said time and time again that the biggest threat to the ownership of bull breeds comes from the irresponsible within their own ranks. I feel sorry for those who love these dog and have to deal with the fall out from people who don't manage them so that they don't become involved in incidents like this.

[JulesP]

Sounds like it wasn't just a degloving. The whole nose was bitten off.

[Salukifan]

Sounds like it wasn't just a degloving. The whole nose was bitten off.

Jesus.

[JulesP]

Looking at the size of the gap and the size of the attacking dog I would be surprised if it had got its nose outside of the fence. I would say the poodle did stick its nose in.

[Sheridan]

Thank you so much for policing my opinion for me. Clearly, "very unfortunate" did not sufficiently convey how unfortunate I thought the incident. How does "extremely unfortunate" work for you?

Policing? Hey, Im not the person who used the word "trolling" about anothers' post, now am I?

You know I reckon if people focussed more on the damage some dogs do and less on the reasons for the attacks that happen, we'd have safer communities. A bite is a bite, An attack is an attack (as happened to Aloysha last night). For the most part, from where I sit, analysing the "whys" of such incidents doesn't make the dogs safer. And I'm as guilty of that analysing as anyone.

Some folk may not have a problem with a dog that will deglove the face of an elderly little dog. I'm not among their number. If you want to own the kind of dog that will do this then you need to house it responsibly.

To be quite frank why anyone gives their dog access to the front fence of their property beats the hell out of me. People come through gates, dogs are easy targets for theft., unwelcome behaviours such as barking and fence rushing passers by abound.

And as for the bull breed issue? I've said time and time again that the biggest threat to the ownership of bull breeds comes from the irresponsible within their own ranks. I feel sorry for those who love these dog and have to deal with the fall out from people who don't manage them so that they don't become involved in incidents like this.

I don't particularly want to get into the bull breed dumb owner issue because it's a hiding to nothing. Too many hysterics involved.

However, I did want to touch on the front yard issue. Dogs should not be in front yards. Nevermind the child or dog who could stick a finger or nose through a fence, it simply is unsafe for the dog in the yard.

[Loving my Oldies]

The whole situation is just so tragic and to apportion blame on fences seems a bit OTT to me, but as I have small dogs, I would never have them in the front yard without supervision.

If I had a large dog, maybe I'd think differently, but the dog would have to be totally non-reactive to people or other dogs passing by as I would never allow a dog to,rush at fences and frighten walkers by.

ETA: if I had a dog who was allowed into the front yard, the gate would have a lock on it during the times the dog was there ... for the dog's safety.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Danny's Darling

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Obviously the owner is either not very bright or just doesn't give a s--t about other people - children or dogs.

If it had been a child's fingers/hand/arm bitten off, I'm sure the authorities would be doing something.

The attacking dog owner's attitude is absolutely disgusting, completely without compassion but oh so common in people these days when their animal has attacked another.

The poor little poodle, I cannot understand why he had to wait for 3 hours to be put to sleep ... maybe they were awaiting a specialist.

He deserved to die of old age, in peace and dignity.

[Staffyluv]

Yet again some resorting to the 'what if it had been a child'..

It wasn't a child and most dogs that are dog aggressive or even territorial don't attack kids..

HA is a totally different thing to DA.. We all know this but it keeps coming up every time a dog is attacked by another dog.

On the flip side, my heart is just broken for the poor little poodle and his owner. If it was me, I would have nightmares for a very long time..

It is going to be difficult to apportion blame in this case unless there were other witnesses that actually saw one dog or the other come through the fence..

[melzawelza]

Yet again some resorting to the 'what if it had been a child'..

It wasn't a child and most dogs that are dog aggressive or even territorial don't attack kids..

HA is a totally different thing to DA.. We all know this but it keeps coming up every time a dog is attacked by another dog.

On the flip side, my heart is just broken for the poor little poodle and his owner. If it was me, I would have nightmares for a very long time..

It is going to be difficult to apportion blame in this case unless there were other witnesses that actually saw one dog or the other come through the fence..

Yes and Yes to your two bolded points.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Yet again some resorting to the 'what if it had been a child'..

It wasn't a child and most dogs that are dog aggressive or even territorial don't attack kids..

HA is a totally different thing to DA.. We all know this but it keeps coming up every time a dog is attacked by another dog.

On the flip side, my heart is just broken for the poor little poodle and his owner. If it was me, I would have nightmares for a very long time..

It is going to be difficult to apportion blame in this case unless there were other witnesses that actually saw one dog or the other come through the fence..

I'm fully aware that HA and DA are different things but my point here is - can you GUARANTEE that this dog would not have done the same to a hand that came through the fence? No, none of us could. I'm saying that something would have been done if it had been a child rather than a dog that was attacked in that way. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

I euthanased a dog in 2011 that I'd rescued for being not only DA but also HA. Dogs CAN have both forms of aggression but of course I know that because they have one doesn't mean they have the other. Some people don't know that, usually standard dog owners.

[corvus]

For the most part, from where I sit, analysing the "whys" of such incidents doesn't make the dogs safer.

It might if it was actually analysis as opposed to pure speculation. I don't think it matters whether the poodle was on leash or had stuck its nose through the fence or if the other dog had been the one to cross the physical boundary (which may not have been the property boundary). And we don't know if the owner of the attacking dog was even aware the dog might do something like that. Barrier aggression can be way escalated above typical behaviour for an individual dog. What seems clear is that something terrible happened and steps need to be taken to prevent it from happening again.

A breeder once told me an horrific story of a local dog that took two fingers off a little girl's hand when she ran her fingers along the dog's front fence. The same dog had a pretty good try at killing one of the breeder's dogs when the dropkick owner broke their fence to pop the dog into their yard at the behest of the breeder's dropkick nephew to see which dog was the toughest. As it happens this was an Akita breeder and the entire male Akita turned out to be the toughest. And the breeder paid the vet bills for the other dog despite the fact it happened on their property while they were out and the other dog's owner had to break their fence to get their dog in. There's no cure for stupid and as a result, some dogs have no place in society, sadly. I don't think there is enough evidence to say the attacking dog in this case is one of them, though.

ETA I don't think I could ever be comfortable with my dogs in the front yard unattended, but some houses don't really have a backyard. And some corner blocks or blocks with very open landscaping can be challenging.

Edited April 16, 2013 by corvus

[wuffles]

Mine are in the backyard, but as we're on a corner block it's essentially the same as a front yard. Not always cut and dry (for the record, we have a retaining wall and huge hedge beside our fence, with no gaps, but my dogs will bark at passers by on occasion).

[Staffyluv]

Yet again some resorting to the 'what if it had been a child'..

It wasn't a child and most dogs that are dog aggressive or even territorial don't attack kids..

HA is a totally different thing to DA.. We all know this but it keeps coming up every time a dog is attacked by another dog.

On the flip side, my heart is just broken for the poor little poodle and his owner. If it was me, I would have nightmares for a very long time..

It is going to be difficult to apportion blame in this case unless there were other witnesses that actually saw one dog or the other come through the fence..

I'm fully aware that HA and DA are different things but my point here is - can you GUARANTEE that this dog would not have done the same to a hand that came through the fence? No, none of us could. I'm saying that something would have been done if it had been a child rather than a dog that was attacked in that way. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

I euthanased a dog in 2011 that I'd rescued for being not only DA but also HA. Dogs CAN have both forms of aggression but of course I know that because they have one doesn't mean they have the other. Some people don't know that, usually standard dog owners.

Again - you and others are hypothesising what might or might not happen..

It wasn't a child, so it didn't happen..

No you can't guarantee the behaviour of any animal (human included) - but it is POINTLESS to sit on a forum and say what if it was a child.. It wasn't and this happens every time there is a dog attack..

More kids are harmed by humans than dogs..

This thread isn't about what might have happened - it is about what did happen.

A little dog was killed because he had his nose in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As I said before, I doubt unless there is another witness to the incident that we will ever know the truth.

The owner of the poodle is hardly going to admit her dog was off lead (suggested elsewhere in the thread) or that he had his nose inside the other dogs fence (again suggested elsewhere in the thread)..

I don't know what happened any more than any one else does, we were not there and adding fuel to the fire like 'what if it had been a child' is a moot point..

I am as entitled to my opinion as you are - it is an open forum.. I choose to not read anything into it that hasn't been reported.

I choose to be factual, not make up stuff that might or might not happen.

[Are You Serious Jo]

There are a few instances where a dog is so messed up it is both DA and HA. The dog I mentioned earlier also stalked my daughter (who was about four) from behind it's fence, it was chilling to watch as I knew what it had already done to the dogs. We shouldn't assume that DA means HA too but have to be aware it can occur together.

[mixeduppup]

A lot of people mistake TA for HA and DA when in reality as soon as the dog leaves its territory it's nice as pie.

[BlackJaq]

Here is the video with the gap:

It does not seem likely to me that the Amstaff could have fit his muzzle through but without the dog attempting it while being filmed/videoed it is impossible to be sure. I also think that this may be the backyard in fact, despite bordering on the public foot path. As I said in the other thread, not everybody has the luxury of having a backyard away from public foot paths.

[tdierikx]

From that footage, it wouldn't appear that an AmStaff could get it's head through the gap without disloging the gate and making a terrible racket in the process - however, a poodle could quite easily get it's head through the gap...

Hard to make any judgement call either way without more evidence or witnesses though.

Whatever the complete truth may be, I do feel sorry for the poodle's owner (and the poodle of course).

T.

[Remarkabull]

I agree that its unlikely the am staff could have gotten its head through that gap.

Such a sad situation and I feel for the poor little poodle