Separation Anxiety In Puppies

[persephone]

So ..are you using the actual valerian root , or a homeopathic pilule/spray ?

Obviously there is a big difference , and actual valerian root is not in the same category as Rescue remedy , which is not a homeopathic preparation ...

[JenniR]

So ..are you using the actual valerian root , or a homeopathic pilule/spray ?

Obviously there is a big difference , and actual valerian root is not in the same category as Rescue remedy , which is not a homeopathic preparation ...

Just the over the counter valerian tabs I have used on occasion 2000mg which is why I queried the dosage. Maybe the use of homeopathic as a description was wrong. Lets try herbal remedies. As I said none of us are experts.

[Miranda]

It's entirely normal for some puppies to become hysterical when they first leave their dam and siblings, but your puppy is still in a familiar environment with familiar people so it seems a rather extreme reaction. However I wouldn't dose the puppy with anything, instead I'd spend some time with him, at 10 weeks a short play/training session will wear him out.

[WreckitWhippet]

I'd like to slap the vet that suggested it.

Why? 'Cause you know better than a vet?

For better or for worse, the pup is now apparently totally stressed out, poor thing. I think it's fair to prioritise reducing the pup's distress. I'm not going to pretend to know how safe valerian root is, but you can find plenty of information here: http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-870-VALERIAN.aspx?activeIngredientId=870&activeIngredientName=VALERIAN and in veterinary science here: http://csuvets.colostate.edu/pain/articlespdf/valerian%20root.pdf And here's some information on dosage: http://www.vetguru.com/2012/06/21/dog-valium/. In the past when my vet has suggested an over-the-counter product for humans I have asked for a dosage and they'll work it out for me. But it usually goes by weight. If you don't have that information you can assume the dosage on the packet is for a 70kg adult human and go from there. I'm kind of bewildered why someone would call up a vet for advice and then ask on the internet for dosage advice for what the vet recommended. Ask the vet who recommended it, maybe? What the hell does anyone on an internet forum know?

Perhaps a hell of a lot more about raising a happy well adjusted litter and what is a normal reaction in puppies that that just been separated from their little mates and mother, than both you and the vet in question does.

[WreckitWhippet]

It's entirely normal for some puppies to become hysterical when they first leave their dam and siblings, but your puppy is still in a familiar environment with familiar people so it seems a rather extreme reaction. However I wouldn't dose the puppy with anything, instead I'd spend some time with him, at 10 weeks a short play/training session will wear him out.

Hello..... the voice of reason has arrived

[persephone]

Maybe the use of homeopathic as a description was wrong. Lets try herbal remedies. As I said none of us are experts.

No, I am certainly not of that number !

However, I do like to know exactly what any drugs/supplements are ...and overdosing a pup on a HOMEOPATHIC valerian tincture /or pilules would be nowhere near as worrisome as overdosing a pup using valerian root .Anything which directly affects the nervous system to 'calm/relax' it has the potential for side effects, AFAIK.

Have you tried a DA P diffuser? This may work very well - but, as said ... learning to cope is the best medicine .... I have had puppies here , new to ourplace who howled the first night , chewed up beds , etc .... after a few nights though, with toys, a comforting Heated snuggle thingy , and lots of daytime activity , they settled beautifully and were never again anxious when left alone.

[corvus]

If the information I posted is anything to go by, it's very difficult to overdose a dog on valerian root. And it appears to be pretty safe as far as side effects go.

I don't think using aids is going to prevent the puppy from learning to cope. The point of these things is to HELP the puppy learn to cope. It may be that conventional wisdom says puppies man up and deal, but if the OP was concerned enough to call the vet I think it is probably safe to assume this is an unusually severe case. If the puppy doesn't have to suffer so much in learning to cope, then that seems the most humane course of action.

Which is not to say that puppies should never suffer hardships. Small, surmountable challenges and frustrations are important for emotional development. Insurmountable challenges, not so much.

[JenniR]

If the information I posted is anything to go by, it's very difficult to overdose a dog on valerian root. And it appears to be pretty safe as far as side effects go.

I don't think using aids is going to prevent the puppy from learning to cope. The point of these things is to HELP the puppy learn to cope. It may be that conventional wisdom says puppies man up and deal, but if the OP was concerned enough to call the vet I think it is probably safe to assume this is an unusually severe case. If the puppy doesn't have to suffer so much in learning to cope, then that seems the most humane course of action.

Which is not to say that puppies should never suffer hardships. Small, surmountable challenges and frustrations are important for emotional development. Insurmountable challenges, not so much.

Many thanks Jenni

[Salukifan]

My other concern is how the advice of a vet (qualifications?)on behavioural issues has led to a diagnosis of 'separation anxiety'.

in a 10 week old pup, a single incident IMO really shouldn't be having any diagnosis/prescription reached. For a pup of this age, my understanding is that separation anxiety would be most unlikely and that owner behaviour can be a significant component in its development.

There are other potential explanations for such behaviour, one of which is that this pup simply had a major league tantrum/hissy fit. Chemcials should be the option of last resort IMO, not dispensed to to baby puppies at the drop of a hat.

I'd be taking a step back and accustoming the pup to periods of time alone before treating him with any chemical. No one knows for sure what Valerian's effect is on a developing brain but I can tell you that a snappy Google suggests it not be used on pregnant bitches. One of the problems of herbal remedies is that they sometimes aren't tested as thoroughly as more traditional medicines. "Herbal" is not a synonym for "safe".

Edited April 13, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Nekhbet]

He needs to suck it up and learn to cope. If you bred the dog you should have been separating and crate training up until now, if you have not then start.

Give him a bone to chew on, leave him be and if he throws a fit, tough. Let him scream himself out. Make sure he's well exercised particularly if he's a working dog and totally worn out before being put to bed too and you will find he'll get over it. I dont see this as SA, frankly the fact it's a GSP is not a surprise for the behavior at all.

[JenniR]

He needs to suck it up and learn to cope. If you bred the dog you should have been separating and crate training up until now, if you have not then start.

Give him a bone to chew on, leave him be and if he throws a fit, tough. Let him scream himself out. Make sure he's well exercised particularly if he's a working dog and totally worn out before being put to bed too and you will find he'll get over it. I dont see this as SA, frankly the fact it's a GSP is not a surprise for the behavior at all.

Thanks for the advice. Will pass it on to hubby. And you're right the behaviour doesn't surprise me at all. A GSP is my last choice of dog but hubby's first. I find them whiney neurotic highly strung working dogs that are cunning and even those I've seen that well trained will be into something they're not supposed to as soon as your back is turned. Perhaps that's why I've become a cat person and leave the dogs to him.

[Nekhbet]

Even if they are a highly strung breed that is no excuse. All dogs need to learn to be quiet. I have working Malinois and trust me, if I let them run riot and go bezerk they would live up to some peoples expectations of spinning, screaming, ripping palings off fences etc. You have to put your foot down, put up with a bit of noise and show the pup that the screaming and carrying on does not work for them. All my dogs get taught to use a crate, sit in it and be quiet. They get chewy toys and treats so if they are anxious about something they can redirect their energy onto that. When I say quiet, you be quiet and go lie down. Working dogs need to be taught an off switch from a young age, and frankly to diagnose SA is just paving a path to trouble in a dog that young. It's normal puppy behavior from a loud breed, he's trying it on and seeing what it gets him. If he thinks he's successful then he'll keep doing it, simple concept that dogs put on people all the time. So don't panic about it, just tell hubby he has to train his puppy lol

[persephone]

Even if they are a highly strung breed that is no excuse. All dogs need to learn to be quiet. I have working Malinois and trust me, if I let them run riot and go bezerk they would live up to some peoples expectations of spinning, screaming, ripping palings off fences etc. You have to put your foot down, put up with a bit of noise and show the pup that the screaming and carrying on does not work for them. All my dogs get taught to use a crate, sit in it and be quiet. They get chewy toys and treats so if they are anxious about something they can redirect their energy onto that. When I say quiet, you be quiet and go lie down. Working dogs need to be taught an off switch from a young age, and frankly to diagnose SA is just paving a path to trouble in a dog that young. It's normal puppy behavior from a loud breed, he's trying it on and seeing what it gets him. If he thinks he's successful then he'll keep doing it, simple concept that dogs put on people all the time. So don't panic about it, just tell hubby he has to train his puppy lol

Good examples :)

[corvus]

I have working Malinois and trust me, if I let them run riot and go bezerk they would live up to some peoples expectations of spinning, screaming, ripping palings off fences etc.

I had one like this in my study. Except he was a working security dog, so lived in a kennel when he wasn't working, training or running around in the paddocks during his exercise time. Nonetheless, he spent most of his time pacing in circles, switching to bouncing off the walls if something happened, barking and biting wire and his water bucket. He spent about an hour around lunch time napping and that was about the only time he was still in the 7 hours I was there every day. His handler said it was the breed and there was not much you could do about it. I was chatting to an ex-military dog trainer and asked if that was normal behaviour for them in their experience. I was told most of them are like that and really need to be worked for 4 hours a day to keep them sane. I had a second WL Mal and a show line Mal in my study as well, kept as pets, and they were completely different. Much more manageable dogs in general, a lot less highly strung. The WL one was not even in the same ballpark as the one I had already met. I guess particular lines matter.

[corrie]

I have working Malinois and trust me, if I let them run riot and go bezerk they would live up to some peoples expectations of spinning, screaming, ripping palings off fences etc.

I had one like this in my study. Except he was a working security dog, so lived in a kennel when he wasn't working, training or running around in the paddocks during his exercise time. Nonetheless, he spent most of his time pacing in circles, switching to bouncing off the walls if something happened, barking and biting wire and his water bucket. He spent about an hour around lunch time napping and that was about the only time he was still in the 7 hours I was there every day. His handler said it was the breed and there was not much you could do about it. I was chatting to an ex-military dog trainer and asked if that was normal behaviour for them in their experience. I was told most of them are like that and really need to be worked for 4 hours a day to keep them sane. I had a second WL Mal and a show line Mal in my study as well, kept as pets, and they were completely different. Much more manageable dogs in general, a lot less highly strung. The WL one was not even in the same ballpark as the one I had already met. I guess particular lines matter.

I don't doubt that lines matter but I also think people would be more likely to nip undesirable behaviour in the bud if they have to actually live with it, whereas in the kennel environment teaching the dog to switch off may not be a priority.

[WreckitWhippet]

I have working Malinois and trust me, if I let them run riot and go bezerk they would live up to some peoples expectations of spinning, screaming, ripping palings off fences etc.

I had one like this in my study. Except he was a working security dog, so lived in a kennel when he wasn't working, training or running around in the paddocks during his exercise time. Nonetheless, he spent most of his time pacing in circles, switching to bouncing off the walls if something happened, barking and biting wire and his water bucket. He spent about an hour around lunch time napping and that was about the only time he was still in the 7 hours I was there every day. His handler said it was the breed and there was not much you could do about it. I was chatting to an ex-military dog trainer and asked if that was normal behaviour for them in their experience. I was told most of them are like that and really need to be worked for 4 hours a day to keep them sane. I had a second WL Mal and a show line Mal in my study as well, kept as pets, and they were completely different. Much more manageable dogs in general, a lot less highly strung. The WL one was not even in the same ballpark as the one I had already met. I guess particular lines matter.

I don't doubt that lines matter but I also think people would be more likely to nip undesirable behaviour in the bud if they have to actually live with it, whereas in the kennel environment teaching the dog to switch off may not be a priority.

Spot on, you might be able to ignore such behaviours in a kennel but in the house it's a whole different ball game.

[Mal1]

Not all Malinois have the same Drive, there are variations in litters let alone lines.

[tdierikx]

Thanks for the advice. Will pass it on to hubby. And you're right the behaviour doesn't surprise me at all. A GSP is my last choice of dog but hubby's first. I find them whiney neurotic highly strung working dogs that are cunning and even those I've seen that well trained will be into something they're not supposed to as soon as your back is turned. Perhaps that's why I've become a cat person and leave the dogs to him.

The bolded part is most telling... you aren't overly enamoured of your hubby's choice of pet, yes? Thusly, when he leaves you at home to cope with his pup, you maybe aren't all that interested in entertaining his whinging pup...

T.

[The Spotted Devil]

Thanks for the advice. Will pass it on to hubby. And you're right the behaviour doesn't surprise me at all. A GSP is my last choice of dog but hubby's first. I find them whiney neurotic highly strung working dogs that are cunning and even those I've seen that well trained will be into something they're not supposed to as soon as your back is turned. Perhaps that's why I've become a cat person and leave the dogs to him.

The bolded part is most telling... you aren't overly enamoured of your hubby's choice of pet, yes? Thusly, when he leaves you at home to cope with his pup, you maybe aren't all that interested in entertaining his whinging pup...

T.

I think that's a good point T :)

I train and trial alongside some of the top working GSPs in the country (field trial champions, retrieving champions, state/national winners, rough hunters) and I certainly wouldn't call them highly strung. Intense and drivey in the field? Absolutely. But great sooky sweety pies in the house. Only my ESS has a better off switch.