Inbreeding

[Dame Aussie]

That's what I thought too Aussie, but maybe there are specifics? So is inbreeding only immediate relatives?

Yeah, I'm not sure but I think so...someone will know!:laugh:

[Crisovar]

Any breeding can only produce problems if they are present in the lines to start with it will not create them. Breed from 2 animals that carry the same defective genes and you will have problems no matter what.

[alpha bet]

Back in the 80's when I started out - breeders then talked about inbreeding (often referred to as incest breeding) as when you mate parents to children, or brother to sister and also half brother to half sister.

Once you went the next generation - for example - a grandfather to the bitch now we were introducing other lines within the breeding - this was referred to more as line breeding.

However in the German Shepherds there were lots of bloodlines available so generally you didn't see line breeding closer than 3rd 4th and 5th generations. There were often bloodlines that were proven to be good combinations and these were often used and line breeding was conducted on these at the time. Probably most of the GSD's of the 80's and 90's would have had Phal and Ingo linebreeding combinations as these two dogs were very influential at the time.

In response to your question about one breeder close breeding and having the same problem with multiple young dogs should show this breeder that regardless of the lines.... these dogs are probably not good to be breeding with.....

Edited April 9, 2013 by alpha bet

[mita]

Note that orthopaedic issues being largely polygenetic and also affected by environment they are hard to pin down in ANY dog.

Excellent point which should be spread around dog owners.

[Alyosha]

Whatever breeding is undertaken - inbreeding, linebreeding or outcrossing - it's not the relations or otherwise of the stock, but the health (both visible and not) that makes for the health of the offspring.

Arabian horses were inbred and tightly linebred for thousands of years and became one of the most robust and genetically prepotent breed of horse in the world, and have been used to improve most other breeds of horses across the world. It comes down to critical selection of breeding stock and zero tolerance for continuing any defective line.

[espinay2]

The terms 'linebreeding' or 'outcrossing' at the end of the day really don't mean much. It is actually the REASONS you select the dogs that matter and how you do these types of matings.

They are methods which can be used successfully or unsuccessfully depending on the information you use when employing them. Neither is in itself either 'good' or 'evil'.

An outcross done just because it is an outcross or a linebreeding done just because it is a linebreeding achieves nothing.

[Simply Grand]

Is an outcross breeding one to another who have no lines in common anywhere in the pedigree (or for many many generations)?

Sorry to hijack your thread Don, just wanting to understand the terms.

[Guest donatella]

Hijack away sweets, my question is answered :D

[RallyValley]

Is an outcross breeding one to another who have no lines in common anywhere in the pedigree (or for many many generations)?

Sorry to hijack your thread Don, just wanting to understand the terms.

I have asked this one before and had no clear answer.

When I think of an 'outcross' is breeding two dogs together who have very few common ancestors. I have a mating planned down the track I consider an 'outcross' where the dogs have the closest common ancestor 6 generations back.

[dotdashdot]

Is an outcross breeding one to another who have no lines in common anywhere in the pedigree (or for many many generations)?

Sorry to hijack your thread Don, just wanting to understand the terms.

This is what the breeder of my next pup and mentor seem to describe it as. She wants to use a particular dog over her bitch, as he is quite nice, but she's unsure because it would be an "outcross" and not the same line at all.

My interpretation (could be wrong) is that linebreeding gives you pups that "breed true". If you have an outcross, to a "different" looking dog, the pups could have traits from mum or dad - rather than all looking like the one line. This could be good if there is something in particular you want to introduce, but I think most breeders would try to find a dog of similar lines with the trait they want.

Introducing LUA Dalmatians to Australia will be a huge outcross, because the lines will be quite different to what is already here.

I hope I've explained myself well. I'm still learning and it's good to write it down and try to convey what's in my head. My husband doesn't listen.

[espinay2]

The best way to determine is by calculating inbreeding coefficients (COI) and don't ask me how as I use a pedigree program that does it automatically. 0% COI in 10 generations can probably be called an outcross. The higher the COI the higher the degree of relatedness in the pedigree. Some pedigrees may not 'look' to have a high COI just by looking at the first few generations, but may be very high if you go back a few more.

[alpha bet]

One thing that would be really useful for breeders in this day and age. Is if the official pedigrees showed the official hip and elbow scores as well as DNA testing.

The show titles are subjective and can often be achieved by a handler who campaigns a dog heavily around smaller shows till eventually they gain the required points for the Champion title. Even the Instinct Testing is not a true test of how good a working dog is (for example) a Herding Instinct does not mean the dog is actually going to have the true working ability... Agility titles show a dog with a high drive.... an individual thing that might not be desirable with some breeds.

In reality it is far more useful to breeders to see these health testing results made official - and five generation pedigrees would provide more information to search thru.... I would much rather see a pedigree certificate full of low hip/elbow scores than just the Show Champions.

To aid breeders to more forward and help prevent breeding some of the health issues starting to surface - pet homes can now face operations of $3-5,000 - double and triple the price they paid for the dog. If we start to push the health testing then we can educate the advantages of this to the public and start to combate the byb and puppy mills over these health issues - but only if it becomes open and official.

Information for Inbreeding, linebreeding, outcrossing is assisted by having the health testing.

[Simply Grand]

Oh how cool that you have a program for that espinay.

[Guest donatella]

One thing that would be really useful for breeders in this day and age. Is if the official pedigrees showed the official hip and elbow scores as well as DNA testing.

The show titles are subjective and can often be achieved by a handler who campaigns a dog heavily around smaller shows till eventually they gain the required points for the Champion title. Even the Instinct Testing is not a true test of how good a working dog is (for example) a Herding Instinct does not mean the dog is actually going to have the true working ability... Agility titles show a dog with a high drive.... an individual thing that might not be desirable with some breeds.

In reality it is far more useful to breeders to see these health testing results made official - and five generation pedigrees would provide more information to search thru.... I would much rather see a pedigree certificate full of low hip/elbow scores than just the Show Champions.

To aid breeders to more forward and help prevent breeding some of the health issues starting to surface - pet homes can now face operations of $3-5,000 - double and triple the price they paid for the dog. If we start to push the health testing then we can educate the advantages of this to the public and start to combate the byb and puppy mills over these health issues - but only if it becomes open and official.

Information for Inbreeding, linebreeding, outcrossing is assisted by having the health testing.

I like everything about this

[Sandra777]

My understanding is that line breeding is when you produce a pup with a COI equal to or greater than the breed average COI, outcrossing is when you produce a pup with a COI less than the breed average - so basically it depends on what breed you are talking about.

LIne breeding and in breeding are the same thing, it's the degree that varies and also the opinion and view of the person you're talking to - as well as the breed and species you are talking about. In most breeds of dog a half brother - sister mating is usually considered line breeding, in horses this is usually considered in breeding.

To me, brother-sister, mother-son & father-daughter are inbreeding, if you have common ancestors on a four generation pedigree it's line breeding and anything else would be an outcross.

As someone already said - inbreeding in and of itself won't produce anything, it's a tool and nothing more.

[Steve]

One thing that would be really useful for breeders in this day and age. Is if the official pedigrees showed the official hip and elbow scores as well as DNA testing.

The show titles are subjective and can often be achieved by a handler who campaigns a dog heavily around smaller shows till eventually they gain the required points for the Champion title. Even the Instinct Testing is not a true test of how good a working dog is (for example) a Herding Instinct does not mean the dog is actually going to have the true working ability... Agility titles show a dog with a high drive.... an individual thing that might not be desirable with some breeds.

In reality it is far more useful to breeders to see these health testing results made official - and five generation pedigrees would provide more information to search thru.... I would much rather see a pedigree certificate full of low hip/elbow scores than just the Show Champions.

To aid breeders to more forward and help prevent breeding some of the health issues starting to surface - pet homes can now face operations of $3-5,000 - double and triple the price they paid for the dog. If we start to push the health testing then we can educate the advantages of this to the public and start to combate the byb and puppy mills over these health issues - but only if it becomes open and official.

Information for Inbreeding, linebreeding, outcrossing is assisted by having the health testing.

Yes we said that and its working well.

[angelsun]

What also needs to be said is simply this:

Regardless of common ancestry..if dogs being mated together have similar faults (genetic or structural) the odds of producing the same or greater (as you are doubling up if both parents have it) when you breed, whether you use common ancestry or not.

If you breed a male with a dodgy hip to a female with a dodgy hip and they are not related at all...(going back further than 6-8 generations) or even different breeds...the chances of you getting offspring with dodgy hips are pretty high.

I see all these mixed breeds in my line of work, and a huge majority have slipping patellas (considered genetic) or malformed front legs, or heart issues or much more. Unrelated dogs mated together...but these dogs weren't tested and deemed genetically or physically healthy....and people are surprised when problems happen because they believe that outcrossing or hybid vigor will take over and produce a great result. Puppy farms are good at promoting this falsehood, as well as some breeders that can not understand more than outcrossing when it comes to a breeding program and they also wonder why they have no consistancy in their litters.

The realtity is quite simply that all breeds now deemed purebred, were created by hard decisions, tight inbreeding and linebreeding (later in the pedigree) to create a dog that always looked the same. Unlike our popular 'oodles' where we see six in a litter and not one has the same characturistics to the next one.

Anytime we double up on a trait, (linebreeding or inbreeding) that is, put a dog and bitch that have the same look in some area (say for example coat colour and type) we increase our odds of producing that same look. Taking a fluffy silky coat and putting it to a hard straight coat and wanting the latter, won't produce that....sometimes a few of each, and maybe something in the middle. It's not til we double up on the desired traits that we achieve...but with that, comes the down side...double up on something that we don't want, or won't accept is a fault or a problem (such as a major orthopedic issue as mentioned in the OP) because either the 'breeder' has nothing else to work with or refuses to admit that it's an issue and is more interested in creating a litter and making some money.

[inez]

Any breeding can only produce problems if they are present in the lines to start with it will not create them. Breed from 2 animals that carry the same defective genes and you will have problems no matter what.

even when the parents are two different breeds.

Yet you still can hear some vets (particually the young graduates, but many older seem to fail to learn better) tell the mug owner, "this is the problem, inbreeding caused it"

How on earth can a vet graduate knowing so little yet talk with such seeming authority on a subject I dont think is even part of the course

Edited April 9, 2013 by inez

[inez]

Is inbreeding frowned upon by the ANKC?

How far back down the line?

Can this produce orthopedic deformities?

I remember seeing a dog born and mature to adulthood, with one leg an inch longer than the other foreleg. his parents, grandparents and great and great great grandparents were all Aust Ch and none were related. He had perfect scissor bite, his litter mate just about missing its under jaw. But what odds would anyone give me that most vets will tell you inbreeding is the cause?

As another poster said. if the gene or problem is present it doesnt matter if the parents are or are not related, the problem will present..

I belive its now being thought many problems are not the result of a single recessive or dominant but accumulation of modifiers, making it just about impossible to trace, dna or otherwise, if present or not in unaffected.

AS that vet stated, not sure which place or topic list here. Nothing born can be guaranteed free of defect. Something few seem able to grasp, let alone admit.

People who give life time health guarantees are high stakes gamblers. Nothing less.

It also had that the thousands of deer in New Zealand all descend from 3 original animals yet they are bigger and more fertile than the herds the original deer came from. As for the millions of possums decimating New Zealand they too descend from just as small a gene pool. Surely we cant afford to forget our blasted rabbits, they came from a base of 5? wasnt it, now we must have billions of them. If the anti inbreed are so right, they should instead be near extinct cripples? what went wrong?

Found the link, if you havent already seen it.

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=443915662016&id=1584362759

Perhaps our Journal could do more articles on this subject to inform and educate breeders to a higher degree than some seem to be, also perhaps serve to educate puppy buyers as to why purebreds are more reliable as a pet insead of seeing so much elswhere of the wonders of the x bred, alert them to 'cons' not just the 'pros' of designers?

Edited April 10, 2013 by inez

[sandgrubber]

1365474124[/url]' post='6169799']

1365473621[/url]' post='6169788']

I know there is such a thing as 'line breeding' whereas mating a grandad to grandaughter and that apparently is viewed as okay?

I think you can also breed father to daughter but not mother to son. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Father to daughter and mother to son do the same damage to the coefficient of inbreeding (COI). Getting an accurate sense of the amount of inbreeding requires ten or more generations of pedigree history. For example, many standard poodles show low genetic diversity due to the 'Wycliffe effect' ....the very major role played by a handful of dogs In the 50s and 60s. Dogs who look fine on the three or five generation pedigree may be strongly inbred due to things that happened in their great great great great great grand sire's time ...or throw in a few more greats.